i wasnt talking about culling livestock i was talking about killing puppies who have nothing wrong with them apart from the 'wrong' colour, i am not a veggie either as i was never implying about livestock anyway.

>This is sick guys!

>I dont wanna know about how to cull a baby rabbit, its well upsetting!  warn people before you start talking about stuff like that

Yes, you were :)

>i wasnt talking about culling livestock

Rabbits are food animals - ie livestock. Just look at all the petfood varieties that are 'rabbit flavoured'.

they are not food in my diet!

It's not my favourite either, but I eat it. :) The dogs think it's fantastic! :D

Would you feel happier if they were bred just for meat?

Tricky one that, Isabel :) I am not against animals being bred for meat, and that would include rabbits, and am all for humane, free range production of animals for the human food chain.  But we are not talking about food production we are talking about breeding the perfect specimen for showing.

Brainless' earlier post said that they would cull the mismarks from 3 litters, put the possibles with one doe and then mate the other does again to hopefully get some more acceptably marked babies. The numbers culled seem to be very high - I think if the same ratio was applied to dog breeding there would be ructions :)

Perhaps I am very naive but I personally would not be able to do that. Why keep using the same does if they are not producing the correct colourings - you wouldn't repeatedly mate a bitch that produced "unacceptable" puppies so can't really see the difference other than one is breeding dogs and the other is breeding rabbits. Different ethics seem to apply.

It may be standard procedure in the rabbit world - just not one that I would be comfortable with myself :)

No disrespect intended to Brainless either - just stating my point of view :)

No, I'd be far too squeamish too :)  but I have no issue about others doing it because I can see the logic that, from the rabbits point of view ;) it don't make no difference when you end up on the plate if you got there via the meat route or the show one :)
As to the frequency of mismarkings I'm guessing that is just how it is with their genes but I'm sure Brainless will tell us if that is not the case.

thw culling of healthy puppies is needless just based on cosmetic. but as long as people get away with it then people will still do it, same as docking tails which has thankfully finally been banned.

>thw culling of healthy puppies is needless just based on cosmetic.

If you read the thread again you will see the various issues beyond just the cosmetic discussed.  It is often down to welfare of undesirable specimens too.

I have read this thread throughly and yet again i will state what i have already said, if the cull is just based on cosmetic then it shouldnt be done, if there is a terminally ill or the pup would benefit from being PTS rather then live a painful life then it should be PTS, but only on those grounds, not because its the 'wrong colour' 

I think most posters have agreed with you that they would not do it on a purely cosmetic basis but being of undesirable appearance will often bring in the issue of welfare.

But often the 'wrong colour' ones are less likely to find a good home, so breeders prevent the possible suffering.

breeders who are responsible will take on any unsold puppies and will be ready before even breeding a litter for that possible outcome.

If you read the thread you will see that that point has already been discussed and the difficulties that the reality of that might bring in certain breeds.

Obviously, yes. The irresponsible ones will dump them on a rescue; the responsible ones don't allow that to happen, nor do they allow themselves to keep too many to look after properly.

...or they find a home with someone who will exploit them for their "difference".

>thw culling of healthy puppies is needless

Are all rescue centres empty then? The truth is that there simply aren't enough good homes available, so if breeders are responsible enough to do all they can to ensure that never happens to anything of their breeding, they should be applauded.

The truth is that there simply aren't enough good homes available, so if breeders are responsible enough to do all they can to ensure that never happens to anything of their breeding, they should be applauded.

Or possibly not breed them to start with? :)

If only we could arrange with the bitch to only have two puppies each time, and of the gender we want! ;) Instead nature throws a curve-ball and you end up with a litter of 10 dogs when everyone wants bitches. What to do for the best?

That would also mean that the only pups bred were those from puppyfarms and other irresponsible breeders, and that can't be a good thing.

be prepared to takeon ones you cant sell! :)

I do. But nobody can possibly raise 7+ puppies at the same time without ending up with an undersocialised semi-feral pack, which is not a pleasant outcome for the dogs.

Reply to Rach

Or be prepared to do the responsible thing, even though it may be unpleasant.

Hi Rach
What about the responsible breeder who makes the difficult decision to cull a newborn puppy because they know they won't be able to find a really good home for it?

hey Ridg

thats a touch one, but surely there is a better way then killing a pup for no reason, if the breeder has bred then they should be wiling to take on any unsold puppies.

The breeder may consider it more humane to cull the pup in the first place rather than diminish the quality of life of the others.  Please don't label those who cull as heartless - I'm sure that there are breeders who've made heartwrenching decisions, believing they are acting in the pup's best interests.
PS - I haven't had to do it, just trying to balance the discussion

its nice to have someone doing that ridg!
I know its a taboo subject but say if i was to breed a litter of SBT's and one had an undershot jaw or something worse i would keep it mysef, never ever ever would i kill a pup if it was healthy i would take it on as a responsible breeder

Hi Rach
Sometimes responsible breeders have to do unpleasant things, because it is the responsible thing to do.
Carina

im afraid i cant and never will accept that, the 2 pups that werent sold from our girls litter the breeder kept and theyre not unruly at all and she would never of culled them, never. she now knows she cant breed incase any more are unsold and she has to keep them. but culling is an easy way to get rid of pups you have bred with kindness only to kill them rather then take them on yourself like a responsible breeder, if you know you cant house ones that arent sold, then dont breed, simple.

>she now knows she cant breed incase any more are unsold and she has to keep them.

So, if she was experienced and talented breeder she is now lost to the breed.  Some breeds can ill afford to loose such people.

ok so should she breed and just kill any she cant home? that sounds like a money making game really doesnt it? any you cant sell, kill. cant make no one no money anymore. thats what it sounds like people who cull think like, she took responsibility for her pups which she couldnt sell and i  think thats the way it should be

>ok so should she breed and just kill any she cant home? that sounds like a money making game really doesnt it? any you cant sell, kill. cant make no one no money anymore. thats what it sounds like people who cull think like

I think that is a very big step away from what has been said on this thread.
If she is a breeder of renown it seems unlikely she would have been left with two healthy, typical puppies unsold and would probably be able to place them later on anyway through the people that enquire for older dogs.  If she was not yet of renown, then yes, she has been unlucky and may well find herself unable to continue breeding because of this and that is just bad luck I'm afraid and something we have to consider when we start to breed. 
However this thread is about the culling of puppies that are not typical and are therefore more likely to create a welfare issue.

in that situation i have no quarms as its for the benefit of the pup and not the breeder!

Sorry, which situation?

puppies that are not typical (by typical im talking in regards to bad health not colour)

Well, clearly, when reading my post, typical was not referring to health because I had specified both :).

ok, then were back to square one where we disagree! we'll agree one day Isabell, one day!

far from being money making, if a breeder has 7 x 5month old dobes say, unsold, it will cost them financially (vet bill) to have them humanely culled. if they didnt care about the pups long term welfare, Im sure they could try and sell them for £50 in a pub or take the easiest route and hand the problem to breed rescue. in breeds like SBT I believe they are full to bursting. To cull healthy older pups must be a heartbreaking decision for a breeder but in some cases maybe the only decision because of the reasons already stated. If the good responsible breeders give up breeding, the only source left is puppy farmers. I would bet that any unsold pups from them dont meet a humane end.

But its still not taking responsibility for breeding the litter in the first place, if you cant afford to take on unsold dogs, then dont breed or else its like a dog pund where they cant find homes so they are destroyed just because its the breeder doing the culling doesnt make it any better.
If you cant house unsold pups then dont breed. dont just kill them, how can people not see that as being wrong? killing innocent pups, for no good reason apart from the breeders pocket?? its insanity in my eyes.

If you cant house unsold pups then dont breed. dont just kill them, how can people not see that as being wrong? killing innocent pups, for no good reason apart from the breeders pocket?? its insanity in my eyes.

Like I said before, I could never do it. But what is really worst? Pups being humanely put to sleep by the vet, or say 5 large breed, energetic, demanding male dogs being kept, that the breeder has no individual time for, dogs that maybe not even can live together as they mature, so each gets stuck in their own kennel and gets little or no time spent on them? (Of course, if this was the scenario and the pups were put to sleep, I'd expect the person to NOT breed again!)

i agree with you 100% Goldmali they shouldnt be ever ever allowed to breed again, but they will and more puppies will die needlessly because of them wanting to breed more and more and not thinking of the consequences incase they cant home, that is other then just killing them off.

This is why I say it should be up to the individual.  It maybe OK for many breeders, in many breeds, to give up in these circumstances, although they may still face insurmountable difficulties in keeping several of the same sex in certain breeds, but if the doyens of any breed had to habitually give up because their houses were full of mismarks I cannot see that that would be a healthy state of affairs.

Ive never been in the situation so Im playing Devil's Advocate:

you for example have your first litter that you have planned for several years from your well bred bitch.
You thought you had homes lined up for them but some of your buyers pull out or your breed has bad press in the newspapers around the time your pups are ready to go and the homes disappear.
you are left with 5, 6 or 7 male large breed dogs
you have reared them well, you have fed them the best
you have taken time off work but you physically cannot give them the socialisation individually without giving up your job. (If you do that you cant pay the mortgage and you will be repossessed)
they reach the teenage stage, due to boredom/lack of training/socialisation they start to fight and to cap it all the dam of the litter, maybe your only adult dog comes back into season. They are at each others throats to mate their dam. You havent had time to get her spayed. is it really in the dogs best interest to keep them all?
Edited to add, a humane end may have been the better option than letting them tear each other apart even if the breeder in this hypothical situation was against culling and thought he/she was being responsible by keeping all these unsold males...just a point to ponder over!!

Maybe this seems far fetched but I honestly can see how it happens..

wow!
thats a big question but i would have thought about this outcome before i even bred and would be willing to take them on yes, it would be extemely difficult and i would continue to try and sell them, probably at a 1/4 of the price but i would never kill them as they are my responsibility as i bred them, no one elses but mine. and i couldnt kill dogs for no reson, i just couldnt.

That is why it is best to leave breeding to those who can make the difficult decisions in such breeds where this is likely.

If there were no homes to be had then the breeder/owner has the ultimate responsibility.

Puppy farmers just churn out pups knowing that some will end up homeless, but other people will pick up the pieces and have to watch the animal be put to sleep after being passed for pillar to post.

If anything happens to me it is in my will that my dogs are to be put to sleep if my kids do not want to keep them, and homes cannot be found for the younger ones within a short time.

Why keep using the same does if they are not producing the correct colourings - you wouldn't repeatedly mate a bitch that produced "unacceptable" puppies so can't really see the difference other than one is breeding dogs and the other is breeding rabbits. Different ethics seem to apply.

This is nothing to do with ethics but everything to do with polygenes. You CANNOT predict the exact markings. You can have two parents with perfect markings giving birth to terrible mismarks, and vice versa. Hence different litters with the same parents will have entirely different results.

"Why keep using the same does if they are not producing the correct colourings - you wouldn't repeatedly mate a bitch that produced "unacceptable" puppies so can't really see the difference other than one is breeding dogs and the other is breeding rabbits"

In the particular breed I kept and to a lesser extent the Dutch rabbit markings cannot be reliably predicted from those of the parents.  the pattern doesn't breed true and only half are born patterned at all.

The ideal being for is quite specific  a very good show specimen shown here: http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/breeds/Rabbit_-_English.htm

Also there are special shows in the first half of the year called Young Stock shows for Rabbits under five months, each breed club holds one, so you are aiming to get a show prospect born in a relatively short period so that you have a youngster of 14 weeks to under five months at the time of the show.  So at this time you would severely cull the litters to get as chance of a youngster to show.

At other times I would rear the wasters for the table.

You obviously view Rabbits as Pets and not livestock?  Are you are also vegetarian.  I assume you have heard the term knocked on the head, it is meant literally, you can't keep livestock unless you know and are prepared to despatch it.

whats all this talk of being a veggie??

and for the record i certainly am not! I do see Rabbits as pets, hence why i said its weak to hear about them being killed but they are a food source so it can be understood, rather then puppies who are not a food source!

Rabbits are classified in 3 groups for showing: Fur, Fancy and Rex. The Fancy rabbits are usually only for showing (although the English DOES come under fancy), Fur breeds are just that, breeds used for their meat and fur, and Rexes well they are used for their fur as well. It isn't at all as common as it used to be, when you'd read Fur & Feather and would have to endure rabbit meat recipes as well as articles on breeding etc. It's an old fancy of course, goes way back and there was a time when rabbit meat was a valuable source of food, they were not seen as pets but livestock. Indeed, there is still some law that says nobody can prevent you from keeping rabbits because they are useful animals. This is also why rabbit food is VAT free unlike other pet food (except the relatively new working dog foods that also are VAT free).

Think I will stick to eating little frisky lambs, cute little piggies, and big soft eyed cows ;)