I know the majority on here rolled their eyes :rolleyes: when I first mentioned councils bringing in dog control orders.

So, here I am again with more bad news for dog owners.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0707/breaking2.htm

Can't wait for the comments about it not affecting most of the people on here and that it doesn't matter. It doesn't affect me but I am worried that one day it will, someone elses breed today, mine tomorrow?

Gosh, just read it - it's a bit severe isn't it putting a blanket ban on all of those breeds (mine included!). I noticed that it says only council houses at the moment - would they be able to ban them from non-council?

>Cross-breeds of these dogs or crosses of these dogs with any other breed are also banned.

Wonder how they think they are going to implement this :rolleyes:

Well it worries me a LOT. I have a puppy buyer who lives there, she has a GSD cross as well as the Malinois, and what's to say they won't view a Malinois as a type of GSD or cross? Judging by how in the UK a Staffie can legally be a PitBull...... :(

That could easily happen - at work right now we have a "german shepherd dog" - he's a Groenendael.  Not a smidge of GSD in him.

The DDA list for Ireland is what put me off looking at moving over there - all my dogs come under this ban (two dobes, a rott mix).  None of them pose a threat to people or dogs.

I've always wanted to go to Ireland on holiday (with my dogs of course), now it will never happen.

I've always wanted to go to Ireland on holiday (with my dogs of course), now it will never happen.

Why not?  They're not banning these breeds from the entire country :rolleyes:

Debs

How do I know which areas exactly they are banned from?

I research my holidays as thoroughly as possible to make sure my dogs can have off lead exercise and we can have days out in dogs welcome places. It isn't always easy to find out.

(Have to say I don't aim for council estates when booking a holiday :-D )

(Have to say I don't aim for council estates when booking a holiday  )

Well there ya go :d

Debs

It's my understanding that although the breeds listed aren't completely banned across the entire country, they are nevertheless on the DDA list - and that every breed mentioned (and crosses thereof) must be kept on a lead and muzzled when out in public.  That's what put me off living in ireland.

Having said that, two girls I met through college from Ireland both say they've never seen anyone with any of the breeds walking them leashed and muzzled, but personally I'd prefer not to take the chance.

I live on a council estate (although my and a lot of the other houses are now in private ownership) and, to be honest, I wish my council WOULD bring in something like this.  I have no problems with anyone on this estate who has dogs - apart from those in the council houses who have staffies (and their crosses), rotties, mastiffs, etc.  In my personal experience I can honestly say that these people are the ones who let their dogs run loose, who think it's funny when their dog chases cats or picks a fight with other dogs, who breed them indiscriminately and who have the inevitable large number of children who do nothing but tease the dog all day.  It's a definite case of stereotyping on my part but it's these sorts of breeds mentioned that are, on this estate anyway, owned by the unemployed criminal element.  Our council already states that you are only allowed to keep one dog or cat in their houses but these rules are flouted constantly.  All they have to say is that the other dogs belong to a friend who's visiting and there's nothing the council can do about it.  If all dogs were banned from these properties I can almost guarantee the amount of strays and unwated litters would go down dramatically. 

This might seem harsh but it is an honest account of what happens where I live.  Personally I couldn't give two hoots about peoples' rights to have dogs or not - it's the dogs (and future dogs) themselves I'm worried about.  If people can't have a dog where they live tough - there's lots of things I want but can't have for one reason or another but we have to accept that that's life.

Debs

If people can't have a dog where they live tough - there's lots of things I want but can't have for one reason or

So you agree that all these people that ALREADY have these breeds must either move, rehome the dog or have it it put to sleep?! Do you really think every single owner is an irresponsible one? Fair enough if the ban had been there when they moved in........

I do agree it will be heartbreaking for the genuine caring owners of these dogs to have to part with their pets but, by the sounds of it, the council have had so many compaints from other residents that they've had enough.  If there's that many complaints going in there must be an awful lot of UNcaring owners who don't give a damn what their dogs do.  The genuine owners will, by their very nature, do everything in their power to make sure the dog is rehomed to a loving home.  It's not the best solution in the world but I do feel sorry for local councils who have to take extreme measures such as this - I'm sure it wasn't done lightly.

Debs

I can see where they are coming from too, we have a playing field in front of our house with council houses at the far side (absolutely nothing against council houses - born and brought up in a council estate myself) but everytime there is a dog running loose in the park with no supervision it invariably comes from there. No one ever picks up after them and last night when my nutter of a setter decided to launch herself over the wall there was a staffie running free - no collar, no people around- it was a lovely dog and very friendly but what if it hadn't been and some of the elderly residents had been out walking their dogs or some of the kids had been playing and it had attacked? These people don't deserve these lovely dogs IMHO, they are ruining these breeds and shouldn't be allowed to keep them. Apart from anything else, what if someone is cruel to that poor dog when its wandering around, or one of the others that gets to wander starts a fight, how long before it decides to get in first and yet another 'bad' staffie story gets in the paper? Not everyone lets their dogs run free from these houses, the vast majority are looked after really well but it only takes a few to ruin it for responsible owners. I feel so sorry for those genuinely caring owners and breeders who are in these breeds it must be a nightmare for them.

I imagine people said the same about banning pit bulls and their crosses but there are hundreds of them still out there. The difference is that now only irresponsible bad owners have them because the responsible owners obey the law.

Council estates in Dublin will still have these dogs when the ban comes in but people like me, who are responsible and love their dogs won't. Maybe no one will police it but I wouldn't risk my dogs life to find out, after all the council are far more likely to challenge someone like me than the drugged up, violent, criminals who have the same dog.

I would back any rules or laws that help stop dogs living dreadful lives, being trained to fight and being dumped. Unfortunately this ban isn't about what is best for dogs.

Council estates in Dublin will still have these dogs when the ban comes in but people like me, who are responsible and love their dogs won't. Maybe no one will police it but I wouldn't risk my dogs life to find out, after all the council are far more likely to challenge someone like me than the drugged up, violent, criminals who have the same dog.

If the ban is a complete ban then it's far easier to police and prosecute.  They either have the dog in their house or they don't.

I know my views sound extreme but I'm getting so fed up with people (not those on here) who say it's their right to have a dog no matter what.  Years ago I lived in a council property for a little while and had one dog.  I would have dearly loved another one but had to wait until i was able to move as it was against council laws to have more than one.  If the rules had been no dogs then I would have had to comply with that too.

Debs

This sort of ruling is ridiculously unworkable - how do they know what is in cross-breeds?
Most people don't know or have records of what is in their cross-breed dog - and loads of people think the dog  looks like 'he might have a bit of .... in him' - when really they have no idea.

>I wish my council WOULD bring in something like this

Would you still wish it if it was your breed though? The only breed on the list that I see being a problem where I live are Staffies. My Dobe has been attacked by a Boxer, a Labrador and a Terrier..and I have to say that small dogs in particular seem to be the worst for trying to pick a fight! Dobermanns are pretty uncommon and certainly not "owned by the unemployed criminal element" at least where I live (infact I only know of one other Dobe in my entire town). How many do you have on your estate? Very unusual to see them around where I live.

I have to say that I think this ban is doomed to failure and heartache - I can't honestly see how they are going to determine the crossbreeds - you could easily wipe out half a rescue center if just going by looks. Ridiculous.

A license to own a dog(s) would be a much better idea IMO.

There are four Dobes on my estate - one elderly one owned by an older gentleman who owns his own house, the other three owned by relatives of eachother who  live in different council houses.  Every year the bitches have a litter to the male dog.  Apart from the inevitable Staffie problem, the other breeds mainly owned are mastiffs of various sorts and their crosses - and those are always having litters too!  The two Boxers that live opposite me are constantly getting out and running loose.  As I said, I can only go by what happens where I live but if it's half as bad with the council in the link as it is here I can fully understand their reasoning for doing this.

I can agree with your comment about crossbreeds but what had to happen to cause the council to act in this way?

Debs

Surannon, do you honestly believe that if the dobie owners (or staffie/mastiff owners) had cavaliers instead they wouldn't breed them every year? If the boxer owners had goldies instead would they keep them in?

All I can see from the breed ban is that other dogs will be owned by the wrong type.

If we banned all dogs, everywhere, people would still keep pets and so it would be cats or rabbits or mice or... or... or...

What we need are better laws to protect animals from over-breeding, neglect in the form of no exercise, over-feeding and so on. We also need the laws we already have about dogs roaming, being out of control, fighting, and not having food/water/shelter upheld.

do you honestly believe that if the dobie owners (or staffie/mastiff owners) had cavaliers instead they wouldn't breed them every year? If the boxer owners had goldies instead would they keep them in?

Not at all - but I do firmly believe (through the evidence of my own eyes) that certain types of society are attracted to certain breeds.  And as my area seems to be inundated with, shall we say, the undesirable element of society, that the dogs are bred from because there is a market for them.

Debs

I think that they would simply transfer to another breed if it was totally impossible for them to get any of the dogs on the list. The problem would continue but with a different breed.

I am taking your point seriously but I'm sorry I had to laugh - the mental image of the local thugs walking down the street with a toy poodle and a peke is just too funny :d

Debs

I can imagine ;-) but as a dog trainer I've seen a lot of goldies whose temperaments leave a lot to be desired. Not helped by the breeds popularity and puppy farming. I can imagine the thugs making the most of them if their choice was limited.

It is sad that people will encourage and bet on fighting no matter what the species. I read on another forum of thug type parents encouraging their small children to fight.

>I wish my council WOULD bring in something like this
>Would you still wish it if it was your breed though?

Its only a matter of time before it is another breed. If the criminal/irresponsible are forced to give up all the breeds on the list they will choose something else to parade around with and train aggression into, perhaps the next list will be collies, airdales, goldies, etc.

The dogs on the list that I know live near me or I see on my walks:
English Bull Terrier - 3 all kept on lead, I caught 1 when he escaped his garden, he was friendly with me and my dogs
Staffordshire Bull Terrier - 9 some kept on lead, some have good recall and are sociable with people/dogs
American Pit Bull Terrier - 0
Rottweiler - 4, 1 has a reputation for being dangerous and owned by drug addicts but is kept on lead
German Shepherd (Alsatian) - 11, most kept on leads, some friendly
Doberman - 3 all allowed off lead and sociable
Rhodesian Ridgeback - 1 always under control
Japanese Akita - 1 aggressive towards dogs, the other one was rehomed after killing a couple of dogs
Bull Mastiff - 0
Japanese Tosa - 0
Bandog - 0

A lot of the dogs kept on lead I haven't seen on the fields so they might be let off away from roads. The most dog-aggressive dogs around here are border collies, goldies and terriers (yorkie/JRT).

Interestingly Chows are listed as Dangerous dogs in many US areas.

I remember reading somewhere that Italy had classified Corgis, Collies & Newfoundlands as 'dangerous' dogs

Just found reference to it here

Isn't any dog over 40cm (16 inches) tall considered potentially dangerous in some German states and required to be on lead at all times, and I think muzzled.

Yes, in North Rhine-Westphalia dogs, whatever the breed, over 40cm tall or over 20kg in weight when fully grown must be muzzled and on a lead in public.
German Dog Law

That includes most of the least unfriendly breeds there are.

Think about it though..if councils were genuinely concerned about this issue they wold employ dog wardens to police the situation and deal with the offenders in the way they should with all forms of anti social crime.

Badly behaved dogs is nothing to do with dogs at all..it is to do with anti social criminal minded people living within our society. Those who do not supervise the dogs well look at their homes, their family and their whole social behaviour. They are part of a much bigger issue than pet dogs!

The laws are already in existence to deal with these people but because the council do not invest in the enforcement of existing laws there is still a problem.  Increasing the laws therefore will have no effect upon these social issues..what is needed is the man power to enforce existing laws and in this way to implement social order in conquering anti social behaviour... be it out of control dogs, littering, graffiti, vandalism, and all the crimes that pull standards of life down for the local law respecting community.

The only people who suffer under the implementation of new and tighter laws are the responsible people the law abiding population. Those who do not care for the law they will not change their ways just because of new laws...they won't even notice the new laws! 

In your area maybe Staffie owners are unfit ..but in my area there are plenty of these breeds and they are well cared for and under good control and play freely and politely with all the other dogs. The most badly behaved breed in my area is probably the Lab or the Border Collie.

Beyond the thinking of the social idealists in History like Adolf Hitrler ,  then there is no magic to solve the ills of society.  To cut off your nose to spite your face is not the solution.

Does it not make sense then to punish the owners and remove the dogs for rehoming rather than a ban to destroy hundreds of wonderful loving animals.

What about the people who already live in these places and are reponsible dog owners??!?!?!?!?

My brother lives on a council estate and owns a Staffie.
I think the ban is in a way a good idea, but like my brother and his family who love and care for their pet, who is not dog aggressive or aggressive towards humans, has their dog insured, take him for walks three times a day and take him to the vet for regular checks ups.  Why should they be penalised (sp) just beacuse they are council tennants???  I know there are people out there that own different dogs, not just the ones listed that don't care less about what their dog does and lets them out loose during the day, so I think there should be some sort of assessment or monitoring before accusing every council estate that have the listed dogs of owning dangerous dogs!

AND ALSO, I would just like to add that I regularly see one particular dog roaming my brothers estate and she does not fit into any of the listed 'dangerous dog' breeds, she is more a retriever cross.
And when I was a little girl living on a council estate I used to bring home the stray dogs I found while out playing and no they did not live on the estate, when my parents phoned the number on the dogs collar it was owned by people living on the 'private estate' two roads down!!!

I have no idea whatsoever of how it works in Dublin, but in this town it is  very common for people to buy their council houses. Therefore where I lived for the past 6 years and before that where I lived for 13 years it was a case of a council house and flat could be (and usually was) next door to a privately owned house on estates. What if this is the case, then it would really make a mockery out of it all if one neighbour could keep any dog they wanted and next door could not.

I have no idea whatsoever of how it works in Dublin, but in this town it is  very common for people to buy their council houses. Therefore where I lived for the past 6 years and before that where I lived for 13 years it was a case of a council house and flat could be (and usually was) next door to a privately owned house on estates. What if this is the case, then it would really make a mockery out of it all if one neighbour could keep any dog they wanted and next door could not.

No it wouldn't be a mockery.  It would be exactly the same as someone who is in a privately rented house who's landlord stipulated 'no dogs' whilst their neighbours who owned their own house could have dogs.

Debs

No it wouldn't be a mockery.  It would be exactly the same as someone who is in a privately rented house who's landlord stipulated 'no dogs' whilst their neighbours who owned their own house could have dogs.

Of course it would -how would it then actually help the problem? I don't think being a home owner automatically makes people responsible dog owners -be useful if it did though. :D

The link does mention council houses and public areas on council estates.

I assume this means that next door with the privately owned house can have a bull mastiff but can't walk it anywhere in the estate.

all i can say is the world is going mad and in the future it will  be a very sad and lonely place,

Only if we let it happen.  We are society... and it is a free society a democracy... so many people not so long ago fought two world wars to keep it this way. Their loss shows us that freedom is so worth holding onto.

I think this is disgusting. I live in  HA property which is on a council estate. I also own a gsd/rottie. Does that mean my dog is out of control? Certainly not, she is insured, signed up to vip scheme at vets, walked twice a day, fed the best of food, socialised as a puppy and everyone who knows her absolutely adores her. It sends shivers down my spine to think that one day maybe the same could happen in my area. Im sorry but i love her as much as i love my children and under no circumstances would i give her up, the same as i would not give my children up. I would rather go and live in a bloody tent if it meant she stayed with me.

Why can they not assess dogs before decided they will be 'destroyed' which is a horrible term to use. Why group all of these people and certain breeds of dogs, not everyone is a thug who lives on a council etsate. Fair enough there are plenty of people around where i live that i would rather not owned dogs but you cannot imply that everyone in one area is the same. I am sickened by this. My area has a bad reputation for nasty staffies. Now before anyone says anything i do not dislike staffies, it is the irresponsable teenagers that walk dogs off lead and laugh when they fight that i have a problem with. But on the same note, in this area there are quite a few extremely friendly staffies owned by very caring people.

I am appalled by this and extremely worried now, she is a very big part of my family and very close to me. Just because i do not have the money to buy my own property does not mean i should be singled out. God forbid if they ever decided to do this here.

I think what people are forgetting is that this council is a landlord.  It has properties for rent.  It can pick and choose who gets these properties (within reason).   Why are people so up in arms that a landlord has banned certain dogs from their properties?  I can't begin to imagine the number of private landlords who stipulate no dogs at all - or small dogs only - or cats and not dogs - so why aren't people appalled about these too?  I don't get it.

Debs

If you move into a property knowing that you are not allowed animals then there is no problem. I am allowed to have a dog in my property who is properly cared for and very friendly. So if they suddenly decide to change their minds then thats ok is it and i have to give her up just like that? I presume you have a dog as you use this site, maybe your veiws would be different if for some reason dogs were banned in your area regardless of if you owned your property of not. Would you still think this was ok?

>I can't begin to imagine the number of private landlords who stipulate no dogs at all - or small dogs only - or cats and not dogs - so why aren't people appalled about these too?  I don't get it.

But you get told those things BEFORE you choose to move in! The new law will apply to whoever and whatever is in the house at the time. Can you honestly say you are fine with that?

I think you're missing my point.

The council are starting with council homes and public areas. They are starting with the list of dogs in the link.

Imagine your breed of dog makes it onto the banned list (or can be mistaken for a breed on the list), its okay because you live in your privately owned house, but if you walk your dog on the street (public area) outside your own house it can be seized and put down.

At some point the council will move on to include other breeds and increase the areas where they are banned.

Years ago it was decided that your car is a public space after someone was charged with having a pit bull unmuzzled in their own car.

If there was a reason for this ban, such as attacks and deaths in Dublin we'd know about it. Even if it didn't make it to the news someone would pop a link to it on at least one of the dog forums I visit.

There IS a reason...

The council has taken the step to remove all "dangerous breeds" due to the increasing numbers of complaints from tenants and because of the legal implications associated with an attack taking place on one of its properties.

Debs

Oh I see, if enough people complain about a breed being dangerous (regardless of whether it actually is, or of any actual injuries or attacks) that is a good reason?

One of my friends had an elderly dog, near the end she couldn't go out much. A neighbour argued with her because car parking was limited and the neighbour was angry they couldn't park right outside the house. A few complaints were made about her dog by that neighbour, particularly barking and roaming the street. They wrote down the dates and times these things were supposed to happen.

When the environment council people came around to have words, my friend exlained that her dog had been too ill to be walked far, certainly never was allowed out alone and had the incidents had been logged for two weeks after the dog had died. The neighbour was lying of course.

IMO complaints are not always true and are frequently a way of getting back at some one.

IMO complaints are not always true and are frequently a way of getting back at some one.

I can certainly vouch for that !!

And some people are just out to cause trouble regardless eg. my neighbour complaining that one of my cat's sat in his garden, she just sat nothing else but he felt it necessary to threaten me with the Police about her!

Sorry couldn't help but laugh -it was the thought of the police getting a call about a cat sitting in somebody's garden! :D

I know Marianne, laughable isn't it?   Well lets just say my neighbour got to know exactly what I thought of him after his verbal assault.  And I have 4 witnesses who came forward to offer me their support if I wanted to take his actions further!

This is important and I forgot to say most people can't distinguish between different breeds. Even other dog owners cannot always tell the difference between breeds.

Many years ago a loose dog started a fight with my dog, it was a small, slim, smooth coated brindle dog. The owner came running from nowhere grabbed the dog and marched off. Two lovely passers by sympathised with me and asked how my dog was and said "that was a pit bull wasn't it". It very clearly hadn't any pit bull or even staffie in it but I couldn't convince them otherwise.

There are sometimes amusing threads on here, tales of breeds being mistaken for others and the mistaken person is usually totally convinced that they are right.