just noticed on the Darlington results that in a class of one a judge witheld and didn't place the dog at all. I have no idea why in this case that was the decision and I am by no means saying that was wrong. Out of interest though could the judge have placed the dog in any position of the 5 even if they felt it didn't deserve a first or is it if it doesn't deserve first it gets nothing ? I know people have said before it can be witheld but I've never seen it on any results till now.
Sara

A guess Sara but I would have thought that the dog was either lame, would not be handled at all, or went for the judge. If you withold 1st, 2nd & 3rd you can't then give a res. or VHC, I hope, so the judge witheld the first three places. Ja:)kie

I had thought of 2 of the reasons you gave Jackie but not the handled one. Supposing that wasn't the case though and the judge thought the dog not 1st class could they give a 2nd or 3rd or whatever ? Just curious coz of the low entry classes I've had recently.

oh - you've edited your answer while I put this one :D and I understand now :)

Sorry, don't often make sense first time around. Errr come to think of it not too good the second time either. Yes a judge can with hold 1st and give a 2nd or with hold 1st & 2nd & give 3rd. I have had a judge with hold a 1st and give me a second, or rather give the bitch 2nd, very embarrassing particulaly as it was in novice, where I had entered the dog because her movement was some what wayward. Ja:)kie

of course the dog could have been such rubbish that the judge just could not bear to award even a square of cardboard.

A VERY mean judge to withhold places in Novice! In fact personally I think withholding class placings is generally mean. The only time it is justifiable is if the placing brings something else with it like a stud book qualification or a Crufts qualification - then if the judge doesn't believe the dog is worthy then they have to withhold - after all with the stud book it is their name that goes down as the one who gave the dog entry! Similarly judges should withhold tickets if the quality is not there. But if it is a class that is simply the class I can see no reason for it - after all - all that is being said is that the dog was the best there (which it was if it was the only one!) - not that it was good or well behaved or whatever!

Janet

Here is another example, and not heresay, it happened to me. Back in the 80s a Wolfhound dog puppy that I had, was doing well in the ring. Three weekends running he had gone BOB and onto BPIS (open show level) We then had a weekend off and the following weekend we had another open show. When the puppy class was called there were five puppies in the ring, including my boy. He pulled out four, and then withheld the VHC, which was my pup. Now I know we had had a weeks break, but he cant have deteriorated that much in a week, surely? :D

Phil - did the Judge realise he could place to 5 ?
Was he a toy breed specialist and your lad scared him witless ;) lol

Hi Beany, no, he wasnt a toy breed judge, and he placed to VHC in the other classes, so can only imagine he just really didnt like my boy lol

Oh Philippa,
That must have been awful or perhaps you were too annoyed to be embarrassed. I had nightmares about this happening when I first started showing Cava but it never has we have been 2nd out of two but also 3rd out of four. Did you ask the judge why? It seems pointless to me unless a very good reason ie hopping lame in which case you wouldn't have been there or a snap at judge, prob judge was in more danger from you :-D.
There was a ruckus recently in Dobes, I think, where judge withheld all placings in Junior and another class although dogs present had been winning well.
Anne

Hi Anne, Its hard to remember now, but I think I just stood there with my mouth open lol

Phil, one of my boys went BOB under a very well known judge at Scottish Breeds one Saturday - and was unplaced (out of six entries) at a tiny local open show the next weekend :D.

Hi sis, See I told you, we have soooo much in common roflol :D

I have no time for a judge that witholds it is a total insult to the person that gave you the compliment of an entry
If you dont like the dog then fine dont give it the CC .
I find those judges obnoxious and mean .They are just nasty.

Hi Janet,
The results that first got me questioning last night were a champ show results and therefore to be placed in the 1st 3 would have meant Crufts qualification.
I am interested in general views though as I have been the only entry in my breed puppy class at 2 open shows and have been given 1st and BPIB. When this happened I commented on here at the time that it was great BUT didn't definately mean she was good. I was told then that judges can withold but until scanning results the other night I'd never actually seen it done.
Sara :)

All placings were withheld in one class at a Championship show in Dobes one year - I think it was Junior Bitch and as you can imagine it did not go down well but at least the judge had the courage of her convictions!

Christine

In the case of my bitch having 1st witheld in Novice, I was not that upset, as I knew she moved like a Camel, but I was suprised. A number of my fellow exhibitors were very upset with the judge and came up to me to say so, that was worse as I had to say the bitch got more than she deserved. I had shown her in Novice rather than Junior because I knew her movement was bad but thought it may improve and wanted her to have Champ Show experiance. The judge would have been better to withold the first 3 places as then she would not have had to publish the bitches name, and by giving me a 2nd she had to write a critique which by the way was good, just saying she withheld because "on the day the movement was not sound". I would not do it again as in hindsight it was not fair on the judge. Ja:)kie

I saw recently on some results ( wetsies) with withheld places also. It must be an awful feeling.

I have mixed opinions about it and am still new to showing but as at today I do think it is unfair
as the people made the effort and came out to show etc.oi there is only 3 why should the dog not get 3rd. I would agree with the witheld situation if the cc was at stake.

Mind you I have seen/heard of some dogs owners advertising that their dog was crufts qualified when it got 3rd out of 3.. is it a third or a last... LOL very debatable.

You will have seen the ads.. "Puppies for sale sire crufts qualified" I always say HELLO when I see it.

Pam

Your right Pam, this particular bitch was qualified, she qualified in puppy when the judge would have perhaps forgiven her movement, as she looked very nice and was out of a top winning bitch. But at 15 months she was I'm sorry to say not top draw, no critisisim of her dam or her breeders, it happens, dogs pick up traits from the grandparents and GG parents and so on back which is why it is important to know the background of the two dogs you are breeding from and even with the greatest care you will still get the odd dog who is, well 'odd'. Ja:)kie

Sara, have just seen the report to which I think you refer. It says withdrawn/with held which to me would suggest that the dog was withdrawn after discussion between the judge & exhibitor. And would have thought that the dog either went lame or refused to be 'gone over' or perhaps it was upset just before entering the ring and was not in a fit state to be judged. We may never know, but it would seem it was both judge & exhibitor who reached the decision to remove the dog from competition. Ja:)kie

this breed is known to be 'difficult' with strangers and as it was a pup I doubt if the exhibitor would want to risk it 'getting a bad name' if it did not wish to be handled by the judge.

ah thanks Jackie - I read the whd withheld as shorthand for withheld and then the full word. I see it could mean withdrawn now :)

Sara :)

I've seen a class of only 2 dogs at a champ show where the dog that got 2nd place didn't even look show quality. That gave me the impression that sometimes tickets can be given for "just turning up" and seems so unfair on exhibitors in large classes where often competition is really strong.
Dot

Now Dot thats a big question, what is Show Quality, in fact so big I think if you'll forgive me I'll start another thread. Jackie.

I think the dog in question is my breed. It was in Puppy Dog and he stood alone.He was not lame. Incidentally that puppy qualfied for Crufts at Leeds where he got Best Puppy!
Diane

Diane, think it was on the first day and I thought you had Gundogs, perhaps I'm wrong. The dog in question was entered into 2 classes, was it the dog you are thinking of? Wasn't yours was it? If so I am sorry you had to withdraw. Ja:)kie

Hi Diane - it was a hound I noticed the result of. I, at first, thought it was just a witheld placing and was trying to understand the "guidelines" that judges follow in witholding placings. Jackie kindly pointed out it was actually probably withdrawn.
Sara :)

By the way hope Jackie gave you all the details of ringcraft and hope you will be going - I'd love to meet a Bracco for the first time :D I presume if it is has short hair it'll be one of them and if longer coat a HWHV (another breed I don't think I've had the pleasure of ever meeting - at least if I have I didn't know what it was ;) )

Oh Sara, I was talking about a Utility - were you talking about a hound?

Diane - where about do you live - email if you prefer. The ringcraft at New Leake has a lot of Gundogs, and a match tonight.

Jackie

The dog puppy placing was witheld in Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla at Darlington. The puppy was on his own.
Diane

The pup Sara & I were talking of, also on his own in 2 classes, was a Canaan Dog they are known to be 'aloof with strangers' may be this one was just too aloof. If you dare say and out of interest, why was the pup in your case withdrawn/witheld. Jackie

nope - it was a Pharoah hound I meant ;)

Gosh, there must have been a lot of witholding - Champshow PMT do you think. Ja:Dkie

Maybe Pam Ayling will know why - she's the Pharoah expert on the board :)

Fiona
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