Our 4.5 month old collie/lab x Salty has started having madness fits on walks, usually at the end when we put him on the lead to walk home along the road.  He starts jumping and biting at us and the lead, plus growling.  I have to really really control myself to not react to this as it's quite sore when he's jumping up and raking us with his claws .  He's so worked up he won't sit or go down in order to calm himself - if we were at home he'd go into his safe area until he'd chilled out but we can't do that when out and about.

So what is recommended when he gets like this (other times include when my husband has to disappear off ahead of us e.g. to get the car which makes me think his 'fits' are stress related).  Long grass also triggers his excitement and he loses control and might be jumpy and bitey so it's not just confined to going home, now that I think about it!

I had to let go of the lead this morning he was so mad and he tore around for a couple of minutes before shaking himself and calming back down to normal.  He then trotted happily home.  But is letting him off the lead 'giving into' him, and what should I do if it wasn't safe to release him?

I guess with the lead, we need to work on why he goes crazy like this, and maybe put him on the lead ocassionally during the walk and then let him off again so he doesn't associate it with going home? (Not that going home should be stressful for him as he gets plenty of games, mental challenges etc.)

To sum up.... how to cope with attack-mode madness fits when you can't put them into a wind-down area?!

My Dobe was just like this and to be honest I never quite got him to stop! He just seemed to grow out of it (at about two years :D). A ball on a rope might help to distract him (I don't mean to throw but to give him something to bite at!) or one of those rope tuggy things which is what I used. My dog would also do it at training classes when he was bored waiting for the other dogs to have their turn at a recall or whatever - I was told to stand on the lead which in effect should hold the dog in a down but in reality just meant he gnawed at my ankle instead Standing on the lead does seem to work for some though. I do feel for you as it really does hurt doesn't it. My Dobe would also make the most atrocious noise and people would stop what they were doing and stand there watching me trying to tame this mad beast on the end of the lead. Oddly enough, he does still do all the noise now and again when off the lead but without the biting and jumping behaviour (he runs huge circles around me instead, quite literally :rolleyes:)

It's high spirits and he needs to learn self control.

I assume he zooms about when free on his walks?  I would vary the walks, sometimes lead only sometimes free running, break up the free running with some control type exercises so that he knows that on lead or off he has to behave.

I can sympathies I've not had this problem with my own or other family dogs but my brother's youngest GSD was a nightmare when young, he was and is extremely large and powerful and used to act very similar to your dog until he was trained.

When my brother worked away I used to care for his dogs and the younger was a nightmare off lead, he was extremely excitable and would happily have made me his rag doll to bounce on and drag around.  I gave him another focus, we did as much agility work as poss and ball play, I could play ball with that dog for ages, the trick is to play fast to tire some of the first adrenalin and excitment, of course this does not tire a dog out, if you put any untrained dog back on lead whilst they are still excited it won't work, play, then walk which should ease excitment, then lead.

If it is one of those days where excitment is abundance I always found when back on lead if I pulled the lead short and made him walk to heal so that he could not jump, or pull he soon got the message, it did strain my arm as he was very strong to hold him to heal, but with a treat and good boy always to hand when he did walk well, he learnt play was over and he learnt to walk nicely on lead.

Your pup is so very young, so don't expect too much, just be consistant and occupy his mind as well as his body that can tire them out quicker than anything. :-)

Try taking some treats with you and as soon as he starts turn smartly round walking a few paces then give the sit command followed by a treat once he has sat.  Then carry on doing a little training, heel sit , down stay etc. Rewarding for each good bit of behaviour.  This will make him use his brain and learn good behaviour brings reward..  Repeat everytime he starts this behaviour, even if it takes you ages to get home.
Slowly it will sink in the way to walk is nicely as this will every so often bring a reward.  You will also find  he will be mentally tired from all the learning.

It very possibly is his age, excitement etc but do you think he'd do it if it were not along the road but, at the same time in the walk? I'm always very wary of hidden problems our dogs can have and that this can show by their reactions. Not saying there is anything wrong but I always tend to bear that in mind just in case, as over the internet it's impossible to really see what is going on.

You could try to not put him on the lead then and you can instead perhaps use food rewards to keep him close to you if you need to - however, if it's near a road that is not feasible. If you could do this, quite possibly his excitment would disapper and a few months later you may find he is fine again.

If you do feel it's a distress response, as you've hinted at, you may need to practice getting him relaxed when one person goes away. I'd suggest anyway getting in contact with a reputable trainer near you, who would come out on a walk and see what is happening and thus be able to make appropriate suggestions. :Try www.apdt.co.uk for one hopefully near to you :)

Lindsay
x

Thanks for all the advice - 95% of the time he's really good on his walks, sticking close by keeping an eye on where we are, coming when called (hmm unless there are distractions, need to keep working at that :rolleyes: ), waits and down at a distance, hide and seek, finding treats tossed into the grass etc so he does get mental stimulation on  his walks as well as physical.  We could try and work off more of his energy by say getting him to run between us but I don't want to overdo it as his age!  Will try what you've all suggested and work on his self control and our patience. He's just a lively pup.

Kathryn

PS Lindsay I think you're right, I'd say it happens about 20 minutes into the walk and it just happened that yesterday, the 20 minutes coincided with time to go home hence the madness on the lead!  I took him out in the afternoon and he again went loopy but as it was a slightly longer walk he wasn't on his lead.  And he wasn't in attack mode, just running around excitedly which isn't so bad.  So maybe we need to wait until he's had his main energy burst before taking him home! 

Could also be that he is getting over tired and overwrought.  How about putting him back on lead before he reaches this stage.

It is a good idea to call him back and put him on lead lots of times during a walk so that he doesn't associate it with the end of his fun.

If you do this and nearly when you would have finished he is calm, end the walk there and then on a good note regarding the lead.

As your puppy is not quite 5 months old yet it may be that he is getting a bit too much exercise. When we first got our pup we were advised that he should only walk 5 minutes for every month of his age, so your lad would have 20 minutes walk maximum at his age. Limiting his exercise helps to prevent damage to his joints that may appear in later life and his muscle tone will be built up gradually. At 5 months old he should get 25 minutes and so on until he is fully grown/matured.

You already do lots of mental exercise with him which is great and also tires them out well. Perhaps you could do shorter walks with him and then do some of the mental exercising at home at a different time of the day :) As Brainless said getting over stimulated can cause them to have mad moments :D

My golden used to do this from about 5 months until around about 10 months, he would actually stand on his hind legs and box me   The phase did pass, we were advised to turn our back and ignore him - but as you have probably experienced this is not always possible:rolleyes:

If you are quite strong, what did work with our golden was standing on his lead (making it short) so that he had to get into a down position
which my husband could do but if I attempted it, I'd probably topple over.  The other thing was distracting him and talking about his dinner!  We also used a compressed air can from PAH which he hated the sound of, in fact whenever he is naughty we just say 'Red Can' and he stops in his tracks :rolleyes:

Your puppy will grow out of this so don't despair, but in the meantime I hope the above helps!
Maria :)

Is it 20 minutes a DAY or per walk, say 2 x 20 min walks?  I think we'd all go mad if it was only a day....  he had a really bad attack today with my hubby who felt quite depressed afterwards because he said if anyone had seen them they'd have thought the dog was really out of control, nothing he could do would calm him.  Aaaahhhh!  Probably his attempts to get him to go down etc were winding Salty up even more so yes, we need to try and ignore.  Glad to hear of other people who have had similar problems 

In the end, I had to use my hubbys walking stick to fend off our dobe bitch, desperation I'm afraid.

It does make it easier to cope knowing you are not the only one doesn't it?

Apart from the boxing when I tried a canny collar my golden used to somersault - always by a road and always when people were around We then went on to halti harness he did the same - he is 14 months now and fingers crossed I think he has grown out of it, but I used to get home from our walks in tears and despair at times. 

We took him to training and he was behaving in this way, so the trainer asked if I minded him having him to demonstrate - I said it would be a pleasure - Jasper continued to behave exactly the same for the trainer - it was this trainer who said it was an attention seeking behaviour - so try to ignore it, so ignoring it and the 'red can' seemed to work!

Good luck!
Maria :)

my dog was like this too, he is now nearly two and mostly fine, except when he gets bored, if we go to a pub or I meet a friend when out walking and want to have a long chat and he has to sit still for a long time on the lead. (He doesn't go bonkers, even then, he just tries to climb up on my knee or paws my leg, which he knows isn't allowed - definitely attention seeking behaviour.)
As a young dog he would get very bored at training when he wasn't taking part himself, and would jump up on us, and play bite our hands (sometimes more than play bite!), but would be fine when it was his turn.
Coming home from walks he used to jump up and bite the lead (or your hand if you were unlucky), we started to put him on and off lead more during the walk, but also doing a bit of training while on the walk, and again while on the lead coming home helped, so it made the return home more interesting with rewards for good behaviour of treats or a nice special toy to carry for a bit.

We to also followed the five min rule when Kez was a puppy, when he was 5 month's and was only able to have 25 mins a day I split in the morning and afternoon.

He also had what I used to called "greyhound moments" when he would charge around the garden at such a speed and there would be nothing I could do to stop it - it was his burn out moment. However never experienced these problems while out. He did grow out of that garden madness and only happens every now and again.

I used to do 20 mins for two walks a day. One walk was mainly off lead out in the woods and fields and included lots of mad puppy running :D and the other walk included lots of socialisation opportunities.

Even though a walk might only consist of 20 minutes actual walking you can extend the time you are out and about with your pup by perhaps walking for 10 minutes to a particular spot and then spend 20 minutes or so watching the world go by and so giving your puppy the opportunity to experience lots of different sights ( people of all ages and sizes, traffic, animals, etc) and then walk back again. Or you could take him out in the car to a different venue and do the same thing - perhaps a supermarket carpark where he will encounter all sorts of people, activities, cars, shopping trolleys etc. Stand outside a local school so he can hear and see children, stand on a bridge over a busy road to encounter lots of different types of vehicles and so on.

By incorporating lots of socialisation opportunities into his walks you can exercise him both physically and mentally at the same time without overdoing the physical exercise :)

My ridgeback has started doing too!  I have a long lead which i put him on when there are too many dogs/people/cars around to safely let him off - if we pass long grass he goes mad, racing around in circles etc.  The attack-mode madness started very recently.  He's just over 6 months and its only happened a couple of times so far - the worst was on sunday - in the show ring!!  Absolute nightmare - felt i had no control - he just kept jumping up and biting at my arm -which is black n blue now!  He wouldnt' respond to anything.  The judge was very kind and gave us a 2nd chance - by getting me to take him away from everyone else and try to stand him but he wasn't having any of it.  I finally escaped from the ring and walked him about briskly for a few mins and it all passed.  No idea what triggered it -i'm guessing excitement but he's done plenty of ringcraft and also attended a few companion shows and an open show with none of these problems.  I'm really hoping its a phase - and a short one at that!!  Like you i'm at a loss really as to how to effectively control it when you can't put them the other side of a door!!

My Jozi used to do that in the ring and I had to keep a squirt bottle in my pocket for ages, as she thought it a great game.

Yay for naughty pups!!!  Your stories do make me smile in sympathy :)

if he starts to bite you it must be kerbed instantly as he is dominating you and taking over!
if you can get an extending lead and only extend it at the end of a walk in a safe green are where he can dash arouns for a bit yet still under your control and guidance and then you can reel him letting him know your still in control.
or if you have the heart stand there quite still and while hes bucking etc just keep saying no loudly and correcting him, he will tire of it and realise his boistrous behaviour aint getting him now where!!
the biting must be stopped straight away dont let it continue!! but the extending lead would be best i think more freedom yet same amount of control !

if he starts to bite you it must be kerbed instantly as he is dominating you and taking over!

I'd be really interested to hear why you think a young pup that sounds like it is having normal puppy loopy 5 mins combined with puppy mouthing is dominating and trying to take over and what you base this on??

Mothy,  You are doing exactly the right thing by not reacting.  Maybe trying to get him into a down when he's over excited might be expecting a bit much as he is only a babe.  If he starts mouthing at you I would do as you are doing and ignore it whilst on a walk - if he does it at home then I would walk away immediately and leave him on his own for a minute - he will soon make the connection between his mouth on you and fun ending!  Also the suggestion of taking a ball on a rope could be a good one to give him something to focus on - can you tell when he's getting ready to go loopy, if yes, then get the toy out and get him playing with that before he goes into full blown demented mode :-D  It sounds like you are on the right track and keeping him mentally stimulated - it is all normal puppy behaviour though.

Karen

>if he starts to bite you it must be kerbed instantly as he is dominating you and taking over!

Be careful not to over-react to normal, though undesirable, puppy behaviour. ;)

Any reaction to this sort of behaviour will likely encourage it - whether that reaction is pleasant or not.  KAren is right on this one IMO, nor eaction at all is the best reaction so pup sees that mucking about ends the fun period!

Rach85, I do hope your statement about him being dominant is tongue-in-cheek - there's a few things not quite up to date with it! ;)

you lot are so quick to jump on someone.
i was simply saying that if hes still biting when hes older (as i didnt know he was a young pup, otherwise i would have said to stick a toy in his mouth when he starts to mouth and turn your back on him if he persists, also letting out a small high pitch sound when he does will remind him of the litter and when he used to bit his siblings too hard they would yelp, helps a lot) it is a very bad thing, as those teeth will get bigger and someone else may not approve your dog mouthing them when hes older.

and it dominance when a dog bites you and he's not a pup, if you understand a pack mentality and leadership roles within the pack then you would understand this, how can the word dominance confuse things? Its part and parcel of a dogs life, when he jumps on to the back of the sofa behind you its dominance, when he jumps up to greet you its dominance as it would never jump up at the pack leader.
All dog owners should be aware as every dog in book in the world explains it.

I was simply saying that if hes still biting when hes older (as i didnt know he was a young pup, otherwise i would have said to stick a toy in his mouth when he starts to mouth and turn your back on him if he persists, also letting out a small high pitch sound when he does will remind him of the litter and when he used to bit his siblings too hard they would yelp, helps a lot) it is a very bad thing, as those teeth will get bigger and someone else may not approve your dog mouthing them when hes older.

and it dominance when a dog bites you and he's not a pup, if you understand a pack mentality and leadership roles within the pack then you would understand this, how can the word dominance confuse things? Its part and parcel of a dogs life, when he jumps on to the back of the sofa behind you its dominance, when he jumps up to greet you its dominance as it would never jump up at the pack leader.
All dog owners should be aware as every dog in book in the world explains it.


Hm well your ideas have a few things I have to disagree with

Firstly your puppy knows you are not a dog & ergo not a sibling If puppies are taught correctly they will not mouth when older, squealing is not what the puppy's mother(or any other adult)would do They grump & get up & walk away-I've seen it often enough in my own dogs over the past 49 years. Offering a toy is acceptable buy only if accompanied by a command other wise your dog learns nothing except to get a toy it mouths you

Now for dominance-dogs do not try to dominant humans why would they need to do it ? what would they get out of it ? nothing is the answer. You are using outdated studies of captive artifical wolk packs. Lower ranked wolves always greet the alpha/higher ranked wolves in order to get food, have you ever seen wild wolf pack cubs playing ? they dive on any available adult whilst they are young & as we as humans keep our dogs as lower ranked all their lives & in many ways treat them as eternal puppies(we provide food all their lives for starters)they will unless trained act as puppies towards us all their lives

whoa!
thats not true at all, domeinance runs through a dog, becasue its just that a dog. of course if you have no leadership skills then dogs will think you are bottom of the pack.
If you train your dog with commands and leadership your dog is much happier as he knows where he is in the pack, and of course he knows your not a dog!!!!!!!
You have your ways of teaching and i have mine, all i know is my dog is perfectly happy, has never mouthed anyone past the age of 3 months and she knows her place in the pack, rea,ly read a dog book and you'll see or you cant be bothere the dog whisperer on tv shows you exactly what im saying.
and if he can get a problem dog to obey simply from body language and establishing leadership in the home then it proves my theory right, i dont need other people to agree i simply pass on my advice and expect people to take it or leave it not wuestion it as its proved and a lot of people who know about dogs mental state do this also.

whoa!
thats not true at all, domeinance runs through a dog, becasue its just that a dog. of course if you have no leadership skills then dogs will think you are bottom of the pack.
If you train your dog with commands and leadership your dog is much happier as he knows where he is in the pack, and of course he knows your not a dog!!!!!!!
You have your ways of teaching and i have mine, all i know is my dog is perfectly happy, has never mouthed anyone past the age of 3 months and she knows her place in the pack, rea,ly read a dog book and you'll see or you cant be bothere the dog whisperer on tv shows you exactly what im saying.
and if he can get a problem dog to obey simply from body language and establishing leadership in the home then it proves my theory right, i dont need other people to agree i simply pass on my advice and expect people to take it or leave it not wuestion it as its proved and a lot of people who know about dogs mental state do this also.

Oh the wonderful Mr Milan is the source of your "methods"-do you like him use Alpha Rolls, Pinch Collars, Choke chains etc etc ? not just MHO but that of many other professional dog trainers the dominance theory is from the dark ages of dog breaking & like all the dominace theories based on the studies of artificial captive bred, raised & confined wolf packs not real wild wolves. If you want to research real wolf behaviour & ergo get some insight into dog behaviour(after all they are thousands of years of domestication away from wolves)study David Mech's works.

Dominance does not run through dogs & human relationships. If you had ever had a truly dominant dog(or bitch)you would realise it is not the gobby one nor the one that does all the greeting etc Truly dominant dogs actually do very little to command respect, they can subdue other lower dogs with a look or a low growl. I have had a few dog dominat(not in an aggressive way that CM believes in)they used very sutble body language & vocal expressions & got almost instant"obedience". I had a bitch who never did anything obvious to prove her Alpha status & it fascinated me they way she was never challenged even when she was towards the end of her life, lower dogs were"put in their place"during puppyhood & stayed there, it was only after her death that problems occurred & they were swiftly sorted by her grandson in the same way she had done.

I never have to stop my puppies mouthing because the higher ranked dogs do that for me & Rjj has never offered to mouth neither me nor my other dogs Why ? because he was with his mother(the Alpha in her breeders household)until he was 13 weeks & she had taught him well. At present my dogs are headed by my smallest Cavalier who can subdue Rjj with a low growl despite the huge size gap(Joedee weighs 7 kgs Rjj over 4 times as much)

look, stop copying what ive said its annoying!
I see where your coming from but CM doesnt use CHOKE COLLERS??? or pinch collers and its not the dark ages youve said that twice now, its a very very practised theory and if you dont like it thats not my problem. whoever  told you that he uses those things is obviously someone  blackmouthing him because they dont agree, and i dont see why not, alot of the peoples dogs are cured by leaving them with his own group of dogs and showing leadership, whether it be not allowing on the sofa all the way up to correction while on the lead. and it ALWAYS WORKS!!! and he uses no force so really before you bad mouth one of the greates dog trainers of all time have the respect to at least watch a couple of episodes with an open mind, or dont speak of him.
this conversation is going round in circles anyway, you wont accept any other method of training apart from your own, so why continue??
im open to other methods but CM's works perfectly and i dont even have to touch or speak my dog to let her know im not happy thanks to his methods and she much happier knowing where she is.youre may work and thats fine as well, but just because you dont believe in it doesnt mean everyone has to follow your views does it??

Have you actually watched any of his programs, or only read his book?  I can assure you, 100%, that he DOES use force.  And a lot of it.  His solution for a lab mix that got overexcited and lungy about other dogs when on a lead was to put a headcollar on; when the dog reacted, he yanked its head back to look at him and booted it in the side.  This isn't something I've heard - I saw the program myself.  On an aggressive dog he used the alpha roll; when it aggressed, he forced it to the ground and onto its back to make it "submit", despite the fact that no wild or captive wolf, domestic or feral dog, would ever do that to show dominance - the one and only time they would roll another of their kind is a direct, out-and-out threat to show intent to injure or kill.

If those methods aren't using force, then I'd like to know what the heck is.

I also noticed a bit of a contradiction on one of your posts; you state clearly that you know a dog recognises that we are not dogs, yet it is still best to use dominance theory to raise them.  Surely, if the dog recognises that we are a different species, then their hierarchical rules do not apply to us and, ergo, dominance theory is irrelevant?

he doesnt BOOT it in the side at all, thats an exaggeration to the hilt. I have watched many many episodes and seen nothing that warrants animal cruelty, if he does use 'force' as you call it its just what you said, a small quick pull on the lead to correct, how did you train your dog to heel when he walks? not once did any of you pull the lead for correction, of course you did! I have seen worse things at obedience classes, people forcing dogs to sit by puching their bums down, now thats cruel.The owners are there in the programme, do you think they would allow him to beat theyre dog in front of them? of course not. and theyre mental state is still in a pack place, same as a domesticated cat will still do things wild cats do, ie hunt to kill etc. so why are dogs so different.
Im not talking about wolves, as dogs have been domesticated over hundreds of years, but the basic instincts are going to remain, ie wanting to know who the leader is etc.iots a fact and you can argue as much as you want, but it is a cold hard fact.

>Im not talking about wolves,

Then it's not wise to use comparisons to wolves in analysing behaviour.

>a small quick pull on the lead to correct

Does he not know you never pull a headcollar?

>how did you train your dog to heel when he walks?

By voice and change of direction, because most of it is done offlead!

And if he still uses Alpha Rolls, which have been denounced as wrong even by the people who invented them, then I wouldn't trust his methods at all.

Okay, perhaps 'boot' was an exaggeration; but it wasn't a light kick with his foot, and the fact he felt the need to use it at all disturbs me.

And as for training my own dogs - I have only one serious puller, and she is making great progress using clicker and treats.  NO tugs on the lead at all.  I have done it in the past, yes - and it's pointless.  It doesn't actually teach the dog anything.  I've used it consistently for 8 weeks on one of my other dogs a couple of years ago, on the advice of a trainer and dominance theory obsessive (and that's NOT an exaggeration!), and long-term it made no difference - the dog just got fed up and uneasy.  With my clicker and treats, I can show my dogs what I WANT them to do, not what I DON'T want them to do, and they learn much more quickly that way because I'm not focused on what they're doing 'wrong'.

And how, exactly, is forcing a dog to sit any worse than forcing a dog to look at you with a headcollar?  Or forcing a dog to the ground to make it 'submit'?

I'm not going to argue that dogs don't have a hierarchy - they do, as far as I can tell.  But it does not include us!

>NO tugs on the lead at all.  I have done it in the past, yes - and it's pointless.

You're right. I know people who tug on the lead to stop a dog pulling - and they're still doing it years later, often until the dog's too old and frail to actually pull any more! It certainly doesn't teach them not to do it - totally pointless.

CM doesn't use chokers, pinch collars  ???  I suggest you look closely at all his programs because they are his stock in trade-perhaps yopu are not aware of what a pinch collar looks like ?

For example he did an Alpha Roll on a chihuahua to show his dominance !! excuse me  but the poor thing was obviously terrified of him not dominated. I would like to see him do an Alpha Roll on one of my GSDs who were without exception calm & confident dogs with superb temperaments.

How do I teach my dogs to walk to heel without the jerk & tug method??? Simply by training them off lead so that there is nothing to pull into so nothing to correct. I use luring & the touch method-I lure the dog to the heel position & teach it to touch my hand(or target stick for the smaller ones) then do very small amounts of heelwork & reward. simply really-it does take longer than the compulsion method of collar & lead-but you can start it as soon as you get a puppy so have more time. My dogs walk on lead nicely from the first day they have a lead & collar on as they have never learnt to pull-QED

I have watched more episodes than you I think as I get copies of his program from a trainer friend in the USA on DVD so I have seen all his programs that have been aired

im not saying i use the pull and tug method or indeed any of you do, but i have never seen him use a prong collar, not ever. i HATE those collars with a passion and would quite happily fit it round the neck of the owner if i see a dog with one on.
with our girl it took a good 10 weeks to get her heeling nicely so i never had to use the method personally and i never will as i firmly believe in treat based training.
I will hold my hands up and accept he is cruel if i see him doing it in regards to CM but i honestly thought he was abrilliant dog trainer, will wait and see. and i am taking everything on board as this is only my first dog we have so really all this debate is very good for me!
its shame that people cant seem to train dogs without force, as i managed andthis was our first and she came top of her class.
but i can see where CM has come from, or used to it would seem, but it now seems his methods are very outdated, wonder why he continues to use them?????

>it now seems his methods are very outdated, wonder why he continues to use them?????

Unfortunately the use of force gives some people a buzz, making them feel all macho. :(

HERE he is saying it's okay to use an electric shock collar if you feel okay about it......

>it dominance when a dog bites you and he's not a pup

It means he hasn't been taught bite inhibition; nothing to do with 'dominance'.

>when he jumps up to greet you its dominance as it would never jump up at the pack leader.

What nonsense! All wild puppies jump up at and greet all returning adults, because it demonstrates their lower rank, and stimulates the regurgitation of food. The domestic dog has been neotonised over the millennia and its behaviour should be compared to that of a wolfcub, not an adult wolf.

jeangenie if you had stopped a moment before jumping on the horse, i did say that i didnt notice the dog was a pup, i thought he was an adult didnt I? didnt I? so what you just said is pointless as i admitted my mistake and i agree with what you say!

It doesn't matter that the dog is a pup or an adult - jumping up has nothing to do with 'dominance'; that theory was thoroughly debunked several years ago. Adult dogs are neotonised and don't behave in the same way as adult wolves.

i agree with some of what you just said but not all of it, if youre dog runs and jumps at you when its fully grown say when you get home from work, it does have a leadership problem!

No, it means it's pleased to see you, nothing more, nothing less! It's greeting the returning leader, if you want to use the 'pack-mentality' thing; just like a subordinate juvenile. If it knocked you to the floor, stood over you and growled, then you might have a problem.

And if it stayed in its bed and didn't greet you at all then you'd know you have a serious relationship problem - it doesn't think you're worth bothering about. Not good.

>have the respect to at least watch a couple of episodes with an open mind<

I did.  The one where he dragged a Vizla into a swimming pool using a choke chain and the one where he chased a fearful dog around the kitchen with a toaster.

My mind is no longer open.

i very much doubt it was that extreme as you make out. and to rehibilate dogs some times methods we deem harsh need to be used, theyre not made of china. luckily weve never needed it, so my methods are obviously doing some good arent they?! apart form the recent patch of chewing our cupboards when were leaving her out for the first time, but we will train her same as we have before bit by bit.

You seem very out of touch with modern dog training. Modern dog training does not involve force and punishment. The dominance theory was established in the 1940's/50s and has since been disproved. Here are a few good links:
Debunking the dominance myth
The dominance theory (Scroll down page to article)
The Teamwork training approach

you guys have got me all wrong, im not saying anyone methods are completely correct because after all dogs were originally wild and what good is it to them to be able to heel correctly etc? so its own personnal taste, and if i see someone in the road using excessive force on a dog i would damn well say something.
what im saying is that people have different methods, and i dont want to keep sticking up for him as he doesnt need me too, but he doesnt pull the head coller, he corrects the dog. theres a massive difference, it doesnt hurt the dog whatso ever.
and my methods are taken from the recent and i dont believe in punishment(hitting a dog to gain training is a massive no no for me)but i do believe in obedince with my dog but even I struggle sometimes to train her in what seems the correct way and then i go to training and the way i have been taught is completely incorrect for what im trying to train same with millions people. same as some people think crate training is so cruel, but millions of people have happy dogs using that method until the dog dies of old age and they love their crate time during thew day when theyre away. its just what you know and what you preach, and then what you learn again...

after all dogs were originally wild and what good is it to them to be able to heel correctly etc?

They are not wild NOW and have not been for a VERY long time. You SHOW them what good there is in behaving as you want. Walking to heel =praise and reward, which means there is a LOT in it for all dogs.

what im saying is that people have different methods,

Yes and pretty much all WORK to some extent -but wouldn't we all prefer to get our dogs to behave by being NICE to them? And by them enjoying it? Not by forcing them in any way and being unpleasant.

and my methods are taken from the recent and i dont believe in punishment(hitting a dog to gain training is a massive no no for me)

Punishment= jerking on the lead, telling the dog off in any form, it does not only involve hitting the dog.

but millions of people have happy dogs using that method until the dog dies of old age

Millions of people think their dogs are as happy as can be, until they try another method and notice the difference. :)

i totally agree woth you goldmali, although some dogs require a bit harder training methods ie if theyre traumitised or rehomed due to terrible circumstances, im not saying in any way that dogs should be mistreated either mentally or physically obviously even if they are vicious or unpredictable and we did what you just said with our girl and used no force just tasty treats, all im really saying is that we shouldnt let our dogs have run of the house for their own sake and ours and safety as well comes into it.and we only train our dogs extensivly to stop them getting bored as they would much rather be running in woods then stuck at home doing heel to walks!! but its fun for them at the same time, which is good.
and ive just read those articles and theyre very very intresting and it does debunk the dominance theory but it used cases of extreme cruelty doesnt it to back up the theory, which is a very rare thing, pron collers should all be burnt anyway i think, or make the owners wear it who have made their dogs, see how they like it.

>although some dogs require a bit harder training methods ie if theyre traumitised or rehomed due to terrible circumstances

I agree with you but compulsion training rarely works on these dogs I've retrained lots of maltreated dogs as I'm heavily involved with rescue

I've never used a choker on any of my dogs don't need to as I learnt the hands off method very early on from a lovely trainer who was before his time with his ideas

BTW Pinch Collars are made from steel so they couldn't be burnt-spiked collars are used by a lot of bad Gundog trainers These are leather with sharpened spikes that ar eon the inside. Pinch collars have rounded ends & used correctly(not as a choker by tugging on them)they do have a place with some dogs to give complete control-however CM uses them as a tool to to dominate the dogs & yes I have seen him pulling on them to force a dog to heel. I don't use them & IMHO they should not be available to the public

i would prefer to nuture them back to health with love and trust,  im starting not to like this CM after all what has been said.................