IM very HO people, breeds and individuals within the breeds all differ, as do training methods. Over years owners assimulate the many ways of getting their dogs to behave in a way acceptable to them, and we all have different standards as to what we will allow and what we wont, as long as it does not impinge on others comfort and saftey that is the individual owners choice. Those of us who have had the privilage of owning dogs for some years are in most part happy to give the tips and methods we have acquired over the years to those who ask for help and some times when they dont. It does not mean that the offered advice has to be taken or that if it differs from someone elses, one or the other is giving the wrong advice.
Also IMHO we have never been in the dog owning game so long that there is nothing left to learn. I have just had a young dog who did not responed to any of methods I had used in the past and had to seek help from a 'trainer' who introduced me to 'clicker' which with this particular dog works well. So lets all calm down and use all the information that is available from the large pool of experiance and let us all try to offer help in a construtive and sensitive non asertive way always remembering that others have different but equaly valid view on how things should be done.
Ja:)kie

Well said girls!
just as an after thought.. none of us are perfect 95% of the time, so why do we expect our dogs to be 100 % of the time :D

These are valuable points Sharon.
I believe, as you, that each dog is an individual much less each breed or even each group!
IMHO you must first know your dogs individually to know how best to *train* them, whether or not they conform to their breed stereotypes.
I experienced such a problem when taking Bayley for her 10wk basic training & socialization classes. I went back to the same dog training club I have used previously but unfortunately there was a large number of new recruits for the class so the class was split into 2 groups and I ended up in a group led by a woman who lives and breathes border collies who had not had experience with sighthound training before.
She made going to club miserable with her solid belief that Bales should behave as one of her collies would and she was not prepared to listen when I patiently tried explaining that IW's are NOT collies and won't/don't/can't behave as she was expecting.
Bayley finished her course but I don't believe she enjoyed it anywhere near as much as she could/should have, as my others have before!
So, in summation I honestly believe that there is a difference in training different breeds, and that your training methods should be tailored to your dog not the other way round.
Nicky

I am sure that no one in their right mind will dispute that all dogs are individuals - similar traits in pedigrees maybe, but variable personalities and characters. Of all the dogs I have owned, boarded or trained I have never met a CLONE!

However, what does appear apparent in some of these Posts is that some folk ADAPT YOUR attitude and training to the DOG. I, on the other hand expect the dog to adapt to me! I will recognise and appreciate their individuality, but my attitude and training is consistent. As most of you know I train with Authority and Praise - this does not alter. The term 'authority' appears to conjure harsh handling! (Speaking for myself, I would not have dedicated such a large degree of my time to the world of dogs, if I did not have a genuine respect and interest in them). Anyone can march up and down yelling orders at a dog - but neither will learn much, that is NOT training. Authority is learning to influence and control a dog's behaviour.

Training a dog this way requires an understanding of THEIR behaviour (not an interpretation of OURS)! To learn to educate a dog with good manners in all areas, particularly in the home (if you do not have excellent control at home, you have little chance outdoors)! Some dogs simply live a parallel life to their Owners indoors, their mind and behaviour is not being motivated. Lastly, to learn the art of authority with praise - observation and timing being very important.

I give 'commands' to dogs (never 'ask' - that way they have a choice)!

A dog picks up very subtle messages from our voice, body language and emotions. If I attempt to act and train in a variety of ways, then each dog will view that Owner/Leader has a 'multiple personality' - and can therefore be confusing and difficult for the dog to understand and predict. My dogs know exactly where they stand with me.

Authority plays an important role in the life of dogs. They need good, reliable and strong leadership. So from the difficult strong willed dog, he/she will know their place - the gentle, easy going dog will be happy knowing they have a clear perspective of order to their life, and equally the weak or 'problem' dog will either LEAN on my strength and be thankful for it, and/or relax knowing that I do have the necessary control that gives them CONFIDENCE.

Denise.

Denise, glad it works for you I use treats and toys combined with praise in the same way. I see what you are saying but cannot agree it is wrong to use different methods or to say any way is better or more right than any other. If what you are doing works for you don't change why should you. Every dog I have teaches me something I used to believe in a good shake if needed still do if needed but I feel I have learnt from each dog and my handling style has and will continue to change. I thought clicker training was a load of nonsense but decided to look into it more and now use it a lot, but because I use it doesn't mean everyone has to. I know I am someimes so keen to help that I can be overpowering but it is only because I want people to be as happy with their dogs as I am with mine.
Everyone has different standards for what is acceptable behaviour my dogs are allowed on beds and that has never caused a problem but if it did I would have to adapt for some dogs that would probably be a no no.
If people ask for advice I will gladly give it, hope it works and if it doesn't try some other approach. I would probably do things with my own dogs that I would never advise anyone else to do or if given the same advice for a different dog would not take up. Example, I had a little Beardie/border cross who was a dream to train learnt everything in five minutes but was not over confident with other dogs not aggressive jus kept his distance which was fine by me. One day we were at a show and a load of dogs were playing off lead saw a collie eyeing Braid up head over back Braid ran back to me collie following he went round behind me and flew at the other dog. My gut reaction as he flew forward was to catch him a scud on the behind with the lead and roar at him as I was not having him think I was going to back up that kind of behaviour, if he had dealt with it by himself away from me that would have been ok. He stopped short looked at me and came back I ignored him then called him and old him to sit and praised him, other dog was still running from my roar. Never had any trouble again as he seemed to know to come back if he was worried but I would not tolerate that sort of behaviour. I would never advise anyone to try this as I just KNEW that this would be right approach for him. Other dogs other situations need a different method that is why these boards are so good.
Anne

Why should a dog have to adapt to what YOU want? Would it not be nicer for the dog for you to adapt to the traits and personalities of each of your dogs? There is nothing to stop you still training each of your dogs to the obvious very high standard you require, but just for a change, it may be nice if their training was more pleasurable for them

Anne, sorry, the above was not a reply to your post, it was a reply to Denise!

Oh don't lets start this again, providing a dog is trained to the standard that it's owner find satisfactory and it is not interfering or upseting anyone else, what the hell does it matter how that is acheved, providing, of course, cruelty is not involved . With a difficult dog I try anything to acheve the end I require, and will welcome advice from all comers, if it means me adapting my usual methods, then so be it, I'm not that set in my ways, not yet. Ja:)kie

Denise, like Anne, I'm glad that it works for you, but doubt that it would work for me. I adapt almost totally to the individual dog. Some are sensitive, some stubborn, confident and willful, some very clever, some plain ordinary thick, some very dominant (I know the word has gone out of fashion), some anything but, some highly driven by food, others mostly indifferent to it - and I personally do not find that a single consistent method works.

Nor do I really want my dogs to "LEAN on my strength and be thankful for it, and/or relax knowing that I do have the necessary control that gives them CONFIDENCE". To be sure some of then need to do that, I want all of them to feel that they can depend on me and I most certainly do not want any of them to feel that they have to look after me. But I much prefer it if I can establish a relationship of mutual respect with each dog, allowing the dog to have confidence in both me and in itself.

I frequently 'ask' the dogs to do things in a converstional way. In fact that is how most of my exchanges with my dogs are made. I use a different tone for absolute commands when I expect blind, instant obedience. I don't have to use it often with most dogs, and do not find that they are at all confused between the 'conversational' command and the 'absolute' one. They understand the difference very well indeed. There are certain absolute, unbreakable rules, and the dogs understand those very well too.

I don't find that the dogs become at all confused by the different methods being used for different dogs. I actually expect a rather higher standard of behaviour from the dogs outdoors than I do at home, and past excitable puppyhood I generally get it.

In some cases different rules apply to different dogs, and I don't find that confuses them either. To give a simple example, given their size, jumping up can be potentially dangerous with the big hounds. Athletic and clever dogs capable of rearing up and putting their paws gently on human shoulders are taught to "hup" ONLY on invitation, and to get down at once when told. Clumsy dogs, and less bright ones who consequently (imo) need more absolute black and white rules, are simply taught that jumping up is never under any circumstances allowed.

I completely agree that "Training a dog this way requires an understanding of THEIR behaviour (not an interpretation of OURS)!" Perhaps where we differ is in exactly what that means :-).

My training methods are fairly consistent but there are subtle changes in the way I train each dog. For instance, Harvey is a very sensitive dog so I have to treat him differently to, say Holly, who is a little bit more independent.

As I said, they are very subtle changes but I feel I have to adapt to the dog, I don't expect them to adapt to me. I do expect them to do things but I have to train them to do these things slightly differently.

Helen

Hi Sharon
You took the words right out of my mouth! I find that if I ASK my dogs to do something I get much more co-operation from them CHOOSING to do something I've ASKED them to do rather than have them do it because I command it! I appreciate that this would not work for many breeds, but it works for me & mine! :D
IW's have the wit & heart of a man, and they are definately capable of independant thought, but I defy anyone to say that I am not in charge. I am, and furthermore I have to be, with a dog of their tremendous size and power it would be foolhardy not to be. :) Discipline is a very important part of training, and I have had occasion to enforce my position on dominant dogs (usually bitches) where I will take hold of both cheeks push the head to the floor and growl, no shouting, no violence, just adapting my behaviour to be as like another canine as I can, as is my interpretation of it.
But as the old saying goes "There is more than one way to skin a cat" and everyone is entitled to their own opinions and methods with training. I would no more decry Denise than I would expect her to slate me for my methods, if it works for you & yours then that's fine. The end result is what we are all striving to achieve, a happy, well balanced, well behaved dog, how you get there is not the issue. But it should be accepted that different individuals, as well as different breeds, respond better to some methods than others, you can't simply have a *one size fits all* approach to training. :)
Nicky

Hi all,
I did 8 years in the US Air Force in an extremely disciplined career field -- Law Enforcement. During the time, I lived through "authority" and "leadership" where commands were directed to be followed without question. I gave commands in a similar manner. I yelled only because of either distance or drunks. Talking in a firm quiet voice doesn't work well for those two situations ;)

I did what I was told, but underneath it all, I resented the noose that I felt was always about my throat. Every time I had a chance, I resisted in passive ways. Paperwork and punishment were done to keep me in line. After all, everyone was to look and act sharp :rolleyes:

I also dealt with handling dogs in this manner when I helped in training. To gain "authority" it was accepted that when dogs acted up, they were to be physically dealt with. "Choking out", talking loudly, and snapping the choke collar were approved methods in our training programs. Yes, these dogs obeyed their handler and his supervisor. But around regular individuals, they were never to be trusted. When they could no longer work, they were put down. Regulations have changed so that some dogs can be adopted by their former handlers, but it's recent and I don't know how many are able to "retire."

I did know of some handlers that used balls and treats to reward their dogs. They ignored the training practices and considered their dogs as individuals, not just "pack mentality". I have to say, these were the better behaved and trusted dogs at the 4 bases I served at. As women were entering the career field, I noticed a shift in the absolute clampdown of authoritarian attitude towards these dogs. I'm glad and I hope it continued :)

I have noticed that those who prostheletize "authority and command" viewpoints on here tend to answer queries with the mantra of what the individual is lacking in the relationship with their dog. Philosophy is more important than actual practice. Rarely are suggestions made to help gain this control. Usually mentioning how many owners lack control or some other indirect response is made. Direct questions on how to do this are ignored, only that treats are helping the dog to be rewarded for poor behavior.

I left the "instant authoritarian" training behind long ago. It doesn't work for everyone and every dog. In fact, attempting to teach someone how to act with authority over the internet is rather reckless in my view. We don't hear people's tones of voices, see their body language, or how those around them are interacting.

When someone tries to be in charge over a large dog who has been in control of the household for several years, do you really think he is just going to let the status quo easily shift? Especially if the person is giving off conflicting messages? Very dangerous!

All we can do is suggest some methods that might work or at least won't go disasterously (sp?) wrong. Seeing a professional in person is also a better choice.

Regardless, there are as many viewpoints of what a dog should be as there are dogs and people :) Vive la Difference!!!! :D :D

Now I'm off to go join my pack --- hubby in the bed, Chienne tucked in her pad under the nightstand, and Samma snoozing in her crate inches away. Until 3am when pups get cold and ooze under the covers to lie on my feet :D :D :D
toodles

Eoghania,

These dogs you speak of were not 'pet dogs' living in a home environment were they. They were working dogs, and needed for a specific purpose. I also doubt that a friendly companionable attitude to strangers was NOT particularly required! Sadly, short cuts were probably used for training purposes. I am sure you are not insinuating that I train this way, (or the people who train under me - quite frankly they would feel angry and insulted as I would)! If I needed to yell to make a point, then the dogs would not be listening to me in the first place would they? I only yell "Enough" if they are barking!

The reason I do not offer 'correcting advice' in certain circumstances, is the very reason that you answered your own question - because we do not KNOW the people or the dogs. It is very difficult if not almost impossible depending on the problem of course, to instruct the necessary action. This can only be done in person. However, I will still indicate the 'area' or reason for the problem in the first place, to highlight something that the Poster might not have considered, and may then seek professional help. You may note in my reply to Dot with the dog who stole a piece of chicken. She had already said that she belonged to a Training Club, and I therefore advised her to seek the guidance of the Trainer to help her gain the control that I felt was lacking.

Suggesting someone inexperienced is placed in a confrontational position would be foolhardy - On occasions I am required to deal with such a situation, but then that is sadly part of my job. It is always better to educate people and their dogs to PREVENT these problems occurring in the first place.

With regards,
Denise.

Hi Denise,
You assumed wrong, sorry:
"Sadly, short cuts were probably used for training purposes."
No, there were no short cuts. These dogs had been trained long hours on obedience and then onto detector school. Every 6 weeks they had to be recertified for their "speciality" (drug or bomb) + their basic obedience training.

You could easily dismiss this type of training as "Working dogs" profession, except for one small fact. The school that they attended with handlers accepts worldwide personnel. French, German, British, Korean, Mexican, etc... individuals were also going through the program. Yes, they were military, police, or goverment civilians, but they took these "training" tactics into their own personal lives, esp. when they left their original professions.

Many began schools for the public on how to train a dog by these "proven" methods. Those I worked with trained their own personal dogs like this --- basically with brute strength and the concept that dogs were to be "made" by leadership and authority to behave. Oddly enough, quite a few of their family members had no control over the family dog.

Sure, this is an extreme view of this side of the "training" house.... But I can't help but be reminded of it by certain philosophies that you follow and an unwillingness to accept other ideas on training as just as valid as yours -- especially when dealing with dogs and breeds that do not respond well to "traditional" hard training.

Obviously, one style of training does not suit all. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many dropouts, discouraged owners, and problem dogs in misfit households. Everyone would agree on the same method and there would be much fewer problems.

Look at the world of cats.... Sure, they have their books. But it's usually care of and about cats. A minute amount compared to the world of dogs. Yes there are problems of having cats, but they seem to be more easily solved with little debate on the matter. Pretty much everyone agrees that a person lives with a cat, not a cat living with an owner. Supposedly, that's the reason many men don't like cats...they don't take orders and are impossible to command :D :D :D

I do worry about certain philosophies, especially when there are some who are quick to jump on a side and push the extremes. Fanatics scare me. Those who perpetuate that one must never physically touch a dog to correct it are just as frighteningly similar to those who believe that a properly trained dog must be overly submissive and react instantly to commands in miliseconds.

You respect Doogdog and feel that he's been rather unfairly treated. I don't think so. When I asked him to explain why he is so ready to say that ALL behavioralists are charlatans, he accused me of sociopathically uncaring about dogs. Yes, the thread was pulled by admin. Personally, I wasn't insulted, just rather amusedly amazed. And yes, that does "taint" my views of his postings. He found someone to follow in you. No problem there. I do agree with some of your points, while I disagree with others.

I don't train dogs for a living or even a hobby. I just live happily with my two mutts. I do help others do the same with their dogs. I think that's what most people on here really want to do and not spend hours in obedience classes dancing to what someone's opinion of what a dog should be. Some people are naturally authoritative. Others are not. Trying to teach someone in 6 weeks how to be what they never have been is virtually impossible.

That's possibly why so many "styles" of training are probably popping up. Presently, there are more types of people who are first time dog owners with few resources or background history to rely on. Living with dogs in the suburbs is different than on a farm. More varieties in breeds do result in differing attitudes about surrounding dogs. Living with a lab IS different than living with a spaniel or a terrier, or a Chow. Sure dogs are traditional pack animals, but tinkering with their genetic makeup has made changes in their approaches to other dogs and personal traits.

As I said before, what consists of the "perfect dog" is not a universal ideal. It is individual needs, wishes, and wants. Perhaps while enrolling in classes, "teachers" should do a minor survey to see what the owner exactly wants from his/her dog. After all, the owner is an adult. One of the mantras in Adult Education is that the individual learns what and when it is needed. There needs to be a "readiness to learn" for that teachable moment to occur.
jmho,
toodles

Hello Eoghania,

Sorry for delay in replying, have been working on a Project, and just catching up! In response to your Post, what can I say? - There are mechanics and mechanics, as there are doctors and doctors, so equally there are Trainers and Trainers! Without doubt there must be Trainers even in the Treat/Toy method who shine out with a far better knowledge, experience and understanding.


Blind force and bullying of a dog into submission is not what I would recognise or accept as Authority/Praise training. Groundwork must be established first between Owner and dog in the home environment. Then I guide and praise the various obedience exercises, maintaining the dog's confidence, and slowly develop the exercise along. Yes, I will 'correct' a dog when necessary, but only when it KNOWS the exercise, or if he thinks to question my authority in every day general behaviour. Heelwork for instance, I teach in Statics. However, this is usually too late for people who attend Club. A dog with a strong persistent desire to pull can be corrected, which I tend to do for the handler myself (and does not require unhinging their necks)! Then I swiftly work on the handler learning to be important in the eyes of the dog. So gaining and keeping attention of the dog is a main concern. Afterall until the dog pays attention to the handler, he will clearly not be listening! (If I was talking to you in person, I would expect you to look at me! - Not just so that you could concentrate and listen, but as a courtesy to indicate I am worth paying attention to)! So attention and respect is what we establish with 'Beginners'.

I don't think you have the right to assume what most people want to do in respect of "spending hours at obedience classes dancing to someone's opinion". They choose to come to us - and I NEVER let anyone join before watching a Class first! I also think the aim of anyone with a Pet is to "live happily with it" - when did I suggest otherwise?!!!

Because myself and respected colleagues have owned and trained between us most breeds and cross breeds, I/We, have not doubts of the capabilities of dogs, it is the handlers that need the educating, guidance and gradual understanding to think dog!

The 'Perfect Dog' is the dog that the Owner is thoroughly happy with. It may not suit me or you, but so long as Owner and dog are happy and content, I would not dream of interferring.

With regard to cats - (another passion of mine)! I currently own three. They cannot be compared similarly to dogs. My relationship with cats is completely different compared to the dogs.

What did interest me was that in all the books I read, they all promoted the use of treats as the ONLY way to teach a required response from a cat. Now, I found this an interesting and challenging experiment to teach my cats a certain response based only on repitition and loving praise (no titbits). One cat will shake a paw when asked, another will jump from one area to another when requested to "step on". The third (has to be seen to be believed) - will draw back his lips over his teeth when requested to "smile", (I then proceed to clean his teeth - very handy). They all come when called (allbeit a little slowly at times - but then they are not dogs)! Except for one who is on his toes and at my side in seconds. I will add that I do have a very close bond with them.

Ideally, Owners with dogs should take the time to visit a few Clubs (this is something I positively encourage) and can therefore compare them. Folk will often go to the first and nearest. It is worth going even a little further afield (afterall they will only be attending once a week). But hopefully by looking around, they will begin to notice varying methods, and become observant to the degree of experience and knowledge of the Trainer.

All the best,
Denise.

Hi,Denise, I would like to expand on your point about dogs that are treat trained or rewarded by only giving toys, treats, etc.

These dogs are NOT coming back to an owner because they love that owner, or because they want to do anything for same. That is not training, and neither is it a trained dog. As Denise quite rightly states the dog is simply being bribed, it does not have enough feeling for you to want to come back to "you". It is coming back for its toy or treat, not the owner.

To put it another way, a dog and owner who relate in that way do not have a strong relationship. The dog is not motivated to do anything for you, it is just going for the reward.

If you do not offer a treat or toy the dog ignores you except when it has enough exercise, and is ready to go home. This training is commercial, and it goes on for as long as the owner is silly enough to pay. Denise described dogs lying down with themselves/her when they stop, that is because the dogs are close to her/them. That is how packs behave, relaxed, natural, and cohesive.

I do not know who said that dogs are not pack animals, but their dogs will loose out emotionally on not belonging to a pack.

Toys, treats etc. simply develop the prey drive, the dog is not motivated to do anything for you. Training is to develop the PACK drive and rank drive (which is part of the pack drive) in order for the dog to see itself as belonging exclusively as a part of a pack with you as its benefactor.
That is why Denise's trained dogs are enthusiastic to please her.

Doogdog your posts were beneficial, do not give up, some still may want to learn from you.

Hello Wixcom,

My apologies to you too for not replying sooner, (have been busy working on a Project).

I am also sorry for the somewhat sarcastic responses to your Post (not much discussion considered regarding this then, just blind 'switch off')!!!

What you say I do agree with, I am truly sorry to offend anyone here, but the use of treats is solely teaching a dog to 'perform'. He/she is working for the treat and NOT for the Owner. If I said "Sit" (to someone else's dog) and showed that dog a piece of liver, and the Owner said "Down" and had NOTHING - What do you think the dog would do? On the reverse, my dogs would not even 'consider' the choice!!!! - (I hope that does not sound 'oneupmanship' it is not meant that way - it is simply a fact that my dogs would not consider there was a choice!

On the subject of Recall, this is something that needs to be taught in a variety of ways EVERYWHERE. My aim is to almost 'brainwash' a dog to automatically respond to "COME" - well actually I just use their names, they hear their name, they move towards me.


Most dogs (I should think Wixcom, you will particularly understand this) quite easily learn their name and the meaning of "Come", BUT what Owners fail to teach their dogs, is to Come under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES and IMMEDIATELY!! A dog may well return to the Owner, but when and if something more interesting should occur, the dog may well think, "Yes, I will come but in a minute"! It is the Owners job to help teach the dog to respond without even considering not to!!

When I occasionally call any of them for no reason at all, I expect the dog not just to return but to LOOK UP AT ME, as if to say "yes, what do you want" - Technically, he is waiting for the next command, not simply paying 'lip-service' to an exercise he knows, and running off again - that is not good enough.

Before anyone adds their own abbreviations to this, may I just say
WADRPSY

Denise

(With All Due Respect Please Suit Yourselves)

Although I do agree with a lot of your points denise and I by no means even consider myself to have anywhere near the experiance that you have, I have been going my what the trainer at my dog club advises me to do.
Nellie has come on in leaps and bounds since puppy class and we have been using treat training, although I do find she responds better with toys. My trainer told me that I wouldnt expect to work for nothing so why should my dog!! but she also told me wether I use treats toys or praise with my voice these are all rewards.
Do you use your voice as a reward and if you do isnt that considered a treat?
I hope you dont take the way I have written this in any type of offence I am very interested in your training techniques and do enjoy investigating all sides.
Nellie is a boxer and every thing has to be fun if it isnt she wont do it, she does accept me as leader and does respond to anything I ask her to do straight away, occasionally she has let me down but she is seven months old and still learning. she is always more enthusiastic if I have a toy, if I ask her to do something without a toy or treat she does do it but only because she feels she has to if you know what I mean.

I just wish I knew as much as some of the people here, I would get it right every time with every dog! What complete rubbish some of you are speaking!