Hey all

First off, thanks for all your help with explaining about the differences between Ringcraft classes and Obedience and the need for both!
I have just one question left if thats ok?

Which should i do first? I have contacted my old trainer for Mitz and she has an Early Days class for pups starting in October when we get the pup, he would be around 14 weeks old when starting, but she confesses she has no ringcraft training avaliable.
Should i take him to the Early days class first or the ringcraft classes first? would it make any difference at all in which order i took him?? and should ringcraft be started by a certain age from pup if you plan to show? or should i do both at the same time!

alot of questions i know, but i am new to this and want to get it right and this is the last thing!!

I personally would do both at the same time however unless you want to do competitive obedience I would concentrate more on the ringcraft training and not so much on the sits.

The worst thing I think at ringcraft we have had to help people with are those that went to obedience classes and the dog was taught when you stop the dog sits.  You want to teach your dog that when you stop they do as you say (sit or stand) so in the obedience I would ask your trainer if you can sometimes do sits (which you might want to do when stopping to talk to people, at a road etc) and sometimes stands (which you will want to do in the ring)

I start both as soon as possible but everything revolves around the showing side of things more and my trainers are more then happy for me to do this, also allowing me to do a stand stay in the class insted of a sit stay or down stay.

I don't know how far you want to go in the obedience.  I only do basic pet obedience so you can walk down the road with the dog at heal and so it is well socilised.  I'm not personally intrested in competitive obedience so don't straive to achieve this level.  If you do wish for that level then both are achievable but with harder work :)

I would also suggest from the word go you have a lead for obedience and a lead for ringcraft so the pup knows when one lead is on something different is expected compared to the other lead :)

As ringcraft tends to run all year round rather then obedience which is run in blocks of 8 weeks I would start your puppy at ringcraft as soon as he is allowed on the floor after injections. :)

Ringcraft like any training should be started from as soon as you get the puppy home and settled.

P.S I don't believe this is the last thing...I think you will have many more questions in the future! :D  Just don't be afraid to ask!!!! :D

I do both showing and obedience, most obedience classes will teach the sit but not the stand early on.  I start with teaching both the sit and the stand from day one.  I also bring in a hand signal with the stand. 

I also use a different lead and collar for showing and obedience.  The dog soon learns to know the difference.  I have never had a problem with my dog sitting in the show ring.

Hope that helps.

It shouldn't make any difference, so long as you use a different lead for each class :D Honest, the dogs do know the difference. Also, when you go to obedience tell them that you intend to show your dog. That way they won't push you to make puppy sit all the time. I ruined one of my dogs by teaching her to sit every time I stopped I thought that I was being clever as I had young children at the time who liked to hold the lead. I thought that if the dog learnt to sit when we stopped then she was less likely to pull them onto the road :( I didn't do it again. Every time I stopped in front of a judge the bitch sat down ;) Not good in a showring :D

Great minds think alike :D

so i should do both then yeah?
we only do basic obedience like we did with Mitz, and shes just fine(came top of the class) and we didnt take her to obedience classes until she was around 7 months old, no ringcraft as we didnt want to show her.
Maybe i should do the early days class for social reasons and then ringcraft, and then leave the obedience classes as i can teach him tat at home, i just want him to be well socialised, and hopefully ringcraft will provide that as well! will it!!??

Ringcraft will teach socilisation (which is just being around dogs and people)

I think you sould do both :)

its just with a male staffy which is going to be used as stud, i really want him well adjusted and happy with other dogs and well trained so i can get some good recall like i have with Mitz. Now looking into Ringcraft, would one lesson a week be enough?

I think you might have to wait and see what the judges think of him before you know he will be used at stud :)

But isabel you do have to plan ahead that if you do use your dog at stud he must be socilised well enough before hand and sometimes, with a breed with a bad reputation you have to be aware that sometimes, after being used at stud and dog can get abit more bloshy.  At least Rach knows this might be the case if he is used at stud.

Also how cares what the judges think!  The last 3 shows we have been to I don't think the judges for us have felt our bitch is good enough to breed from as she has been near the end of the line.  Doesn't mean she has any faults, just she's not the type for the judge.  (At least thats what I tell myself after being placed behind the faces within the breed!)

>Also how cares what the judges think! 

I'm sure you are looking for some sort of concensus that she is up to scratch :)
Of course is it commendable that Rach is going about it in a responsible way, looking for that concensus and doing the health tests, I was just picking up (with a smiley) on the lack of an 'if' :)

>I was just picking up (with a smiley) on the lack of an 'if' 

They always say that if you want to give God a good laugh, tell him your plans! ;) :D

Yes. You don't want to overdo it so they get bored and end up hating it, and then all your show plans have gone out of the window! Don't look too far ahead - he's got a long way to go before you know whether he'll be one of the 10% of pedigree dogs good enough to pass on their genes! ;)

i know he wont be born a stud! we wont even consider it until he's seen the judges and then theres the health tests he has to pass and we go from there!found a ringcraft class in essex, theres none in ipswich!

I would do one night a week ringcrafts and one night obedience.  Thats normally more then enough so they don't get too bored (of course you can do work at home)

I remmeber two of the most friendliest male staffies at our ringcraft who did our all breeds ringcraft, and in the same town a staffie only ringcraft which ment they were well socilised with other breeds and their own.  I have gone to the all staffie ringcraft on a couple of occsions to judge their match and the dogs have all been so well behaved with eachother. :)

my boyfriend will love me for that! 2 nights a week!
i think we will go to the early days class and leave obedince at that and i'll do the rest!
and we will continue ringcraft throughout his younger life, how long should you take the classes for or is it a lifelong thing??

I would do the early obedience classes as that's what is available, but make it clear you do not intend to teach a sit until later in life. When they do their heelwork and tell the puppies to sit at the end, you get your puppy to stand instead. :-)

How long you do the ringcraft is a personal thing, some people at my ringcraft bring the same dog for years, others only come until the puppy starts in the show ring. I only take Henry once in a blue moon as he gets bored of showing if taken too much (though he's retired now really). I could take Ellie every week though and she would still love it! Mostly I just go now to take my beginner friends, as my place is better for basic ringcraft and initial socialisation and not so good at the finer points of showing each breed, particularly the loose lead ones!

My dog automatically sits after heelwork, and I have taught him to do this since he was a pup. He can tell the difference, he doesn't tend to do it in the show ring :)
He has been going to obedience classes since he was 12 weeks old and has never been to a ringcraft class. I had hoped to, but it clashed with obedience! But if I could, I would have done both.

Is your breed free standing in the show ring, as I have found that too much teaching of sit does tend to make a puppy sit in the Ring if at all unsure of itself.

I save the sits for the stays.  but again mine is an agile medium size breed so I prefer them to either stand or down, as it is to easy for them to get their front feet up and jump up from a sit.

Brainless, cutewolfs breed is free standing however I have found it happening sometimes with my setters which are stacked.  If I'm holding a treat and stop but don't put a stand in quick enough they will sit down.  I therefore taught them to freestand after movement.  Once teaching both to sit and stand when I stop they will wait for a command...

our new puppy will be a Staffordshire bull terrier so what would be best for the breed?
we will do the early days class no mattr what and hopefully start ringcraft, did someone say earlier that theyve never had ringcraft  classes but still show? so you can get away with it? how would you teach ringcraft classes without actully going?!

Cutewolf mentioned she's never done rincraft however she has a toller which is a breed known for being able to take apon themsleves many activities (Felix also trains in agility I do believe).  She did alot of her training at companion shows and at home so it is possible.  Can't ay what his like with the judge going over him as one time I watched him I do think he messed about a little bt that was under the stud dog owner! :D  He must have behaved as he did win his class at crufts.  Proof that you don't need ringcraft classes however I do highly recomend you go to one to get your dog used to being gone over and also I find there's a different atmosphere between show people and obedience people (although thats just my experiance!!! :) )

ahh i see!
with a stafford im gonna need all the training i can get!
i think we will do the early days class and tell our trainer who we know very very well, that we are going to show him and she will understand if we dont want sit taught at the end of a heel, but i can still teach him sit cant I seperatly? for when he's not heeling etc!
then we will start ringcraft when he has finished that class, so he will go from one to the other. that sound good to everyone?

and its not socialosation classes its early days bacis puppy training, the class before us when we took Mitz was the early days class and it looked really really good.

You can teach him to sit.  I would teach him to sit at your heal when you stop aswell but also teach him to stand when you stop.

I would teach sits in the sit stay.  I woudl go to both, the sooner he goes to Ringcraft and gets peple looking at his teeth and tackle the less bothered he will be.

I think you can only do without Ringcraft classes if you know what you are doing.

My current puppy has never been to ringcraft as there is no loner one in walking distance to me and none of my doggy friends are attending at the moment.

I have a freestanding breed and will just have to wing it.  Her first show is Windsor on Sunday, all the dogs had one of their rare baths (last one just before Easter).  My biggest worry will be going around all together as she is likely to want to chase/catch up the dogs in front, as on walks all the dogs walk together so she will wonder why these others get to go in front.

She is reasonably civilised on the lead, and will usually walk on a loose one.

Personally I would choose ringcraft over puppy socialisation classes any day.  If the class is actually obedience then I would do that one too.  I am not keen on puppy socialisation classes.  It is quite unnatural for pups to be all together without adult dogs there too, and many of them can cause more harm than good when they become puppy free for alls, teaching bolshy ones to bully and timid ones get scared.

>It is quite unnatural for pups to be all together without adult dogs there too, and many of them can cause more harm than good when they become puppy free for alls, teaching bolshy ones to bully and timid ones get scared.

This is where I think I'm quite lucky as the trainers will bring in their dogs to see the puppies, aswell as if their are any children coming with a parent they are asked (parents and child) if they will go and say hello to each puppy, of course the trainer will be there aswell and any puppies the trainer feels a child shouldn't touch will keep them away, vica versa children kept away.  It also teaches puppies to ignor the other puppies and concentrate on the owner.  they are not let off lead except one at a time nearer the end of the course for a recall.

And I'm sure your puppy will be just fine in the ring :)

so its right what my plan is then?

to go to the early days class and THEN ringcraft? doing my calculations from when we get him to when he has finished the course he would be about 23 weeks old (13 weeks old when starting course for early learning and it last for between 8 to 10 weeks) is that too late to start ringcraft?

im gonna have to them both at the same time aint I!

I think both at the same time would be better personally :)  But it's totally up to you!

how much are ringcraft classes as standard?
and does anyone know where any are in suffolk?

Wouldn't expect it to be more than about £2, depends how expensive it is to hire the local hall.

2££££!!!!!

its only £2 for a ringcraft lesson??? seriously?! i thought it would be more like £20 a lesson.

It's not expensive! Ours are £5 for a year's membership and £2 per class.

Thats unbelievable! but such good news, to be honest thats why i was trying to avoid having the obedience lessons and ringcraft at the same time, i had no idea it was sooooo cheap!
with that now known i just have to find a local class!

Our ringcraft is just £1.50 a night with no membership fee but I've never known one above £2-£3!

It's only £20 if you go for private lessons.  We do private Lessons for £10 but then we meet on public ground for one on one but only do it for certain people who ask.

Our local Obedience classes charge about the same, it's just to cover the cost of hiring the hall.

Don't know where you are (apart from Sfk/Essex) but if you look on www.dogclub.co.uk and follow regional link they have lists of load of clubs by county (good/bad/indifferent - I know not) but you may find some fairly close you could go and look at.
Chris

The thing is Rach85, ringcraft is not usually a lesson.  I remember the first time I went I was rather disappointed.  I just took a seat with my pup and waited for the class to begin! :D  In most instances is it is just an opportunity to practice but of course when you get chatting with people they are, with very few exceptions, more than happy to run through things with you and offer advise and guidance.  It's a DIY class :)

See now isabel our ringcraft is by no means DIY.

It starts with one to one tutition under at least two different people with the full stand, movement etc just like in the ring.  Advise is given and different techniques taught.

We then, once everyone's been up at least twice, sometimes 3 times (we have 3 different trainers working at one time) we get everyone up where each dog stands in a line and the trainer will go over each dog.  Then one row will stand while another walks in and out of the dogs, getting each dog used to standing still with people and dogs walking past and getting dogs to walk past still dogs and ignoring him (think walking though a show but in a more controlled situation.) Then two at a time dogs will go up and down together (something not seen in the ring often anymore but still you might have to run your dog close to annother dog running in the next ring)

We then have tea/coffee with homebaked cakes from my Nan (Everyone's fave part!!! :D )

Lastly we will either get someone to judge (good for those who want to learn to go over dogs or those who just want to be in a judges position even if they don't want to judge in the future) and also gets the dogs into a mock show situation of waiting around.  Sometimes however not enough people stay and we will practise circuits so dogs get used to running with dogs behind and infront and also with different speeds of dogs so handlers can learn to leave space for slower dogs to get the most out of their own dogs :)

The last bit can also involve a little extra training and if anyone wants to practise anything we will try and help.  We have occasionly been asked to bring and wear hats for some dogs to get used to them aswell as my mum being very good at wearing long flowy skirts to get dogs used to that, aswell as a small amount of perfumes etc.  We try our best to train dogs and handlers for anything they may come against in the ring.

I guess this really does vary and not getting too big headed about our club but I know not all clubs work like this and numerous people have told us so! :)  I also know there are others as good as and possibly better then us around the country :)

None of the three in striking distance of me are run like that but I wish they were :)  Having said that they are all very friendly and as long as you have the confidence to ask, people will take you under their wing.

I have always found the same Isabel.  Shame really, when you are a newby you don't like to ask. They were all very friendly though.

Our ringcraft is £3.50 a night but we are in London. Our obedience is £10 a year and then £1 a night. :-)

Ours is very similar to this. Proper training for the full hour, or sometimes longer. Once a month an outside judge also comes in to do match nights and that is very much like show conditions.

Our trainer (depending on what dogs turn up) also sometimes has us do a triangle, up and down and then the stand all offlead to prove that a lot of people reply on jerking the lead and stringing the dog up way too much - a lot of the dogs do flow much better without a lead and mine certainly has en extra bit of spirit when the lead comes off! As a result people are more confident now to move their dog with the lead loose and to give vocal commands on the turns instead of jerking the dog round...tends to look much nicer too.

I had just assumed that all ringcrafts would be pretty much the same style - feel quite privileged now! :D

The offlead bit is a very good idea, I do this with my own dogs but would do it with many other dog there but do encourage loose leads (unless of course you wish to hide something!  My old girl is strung up on the way back to a judge because she has typical loose movement that a veteran setter will get!)

I think some ringcrafts are set up to teach people wereas some are set up as a place to practise!  The later is fine for experianced handlers however not for the newcomers.  Of course the first is ideal for both! :D 

I still think our ringcraft is popular due to my nans home made cakes!  (I've witnessed those who just come up for a chatter and bit of cake, no dog! and those who only have a cuppa tea for the cake!)

>My old girl is strung up on the way back to a judge because she has typical loose movement that a veteran setter will get!

I have in the past given a small jerk on the lead as we set off I must admit! Otherwise he tends to go into a pace. I've now just about mastered the art of being able to get him to do the same movement the jerk results in without actually using the lead :P Difficult to explain - I basically through my left arm out directly in front of him as if holding the lead and say "uppp!" in a ridiculously high pitched voice as we set off. He does a small hop with his front legs and lands in the trot :D I'm sure I look quite mad.

>I've witnessed those who just come up for a chatter and bit of cake, no dog!

We have this as well :D One man used to come with his wife, daughter and dogs and now it's just him!!

For pacing dogs I will lift the head slightly before setting off with my hand, so the same way giving a command to lift the head will help.

The other thing I do now with setting off with most dogs is a small skip before I start running and this gives the dog a small skip to go into a run.

The other thing to help with pacing is turning the dog round your before setting off :)

I tried turning - didn't work :D Doesn't seem to be quick enough for him, although I see a lot of people turning before setting off so must work for most! I haven't tried lifting the head. The skip sounds a bit like our hop :D

It does depend alot on the dog.  Each dog to their own.  turning is more suitable to the shorter breeds (in proportion, not just in general :) ) One thing we have learnt over the years.  Even as trainers you can learn more tips from what the experiance people do and have found. 

You really will never stop learning and each dog you will get will have to be handled slightly differenty wether it be lead position, speed of movement etc.

Yes, I usually start off with a turn, and a little jerk on the lead and an eager 'come on then', otherwise Ellie often does pace. If she starts too slow she will pace, and the only thing to do is turn round and start again, she can go at a terrific rate pacing. When she trots she moves fantastically, so it's a bit annoying she has this habit. That's why I was so proud of her at Windsor for NOT pacing in our tiny ring. :-)

I am new to this last year...  my advice for you is to go for ringcraft because if you show it is good to get going with a pup. I never realised they have special entry at shows for pups and younger dogs so do this first.

Ringcraft tends to be hard for new people because they do not teach it like in obedience  so the sooner you get going the sooner you will find your feet. 

I was going to do both but to be honest trying to find a good obedience class and a good ringcraft class isn't easy. Find ringcraft first, gett settled in and find your feet and then find a light fun obedience class. Some ringcraft clubs run both so the obedience is based around showing so when you stop you stand the dogs instead of always sitting them.  

The ringcraft clubs I found were total chaos I coudn't get into them at all and they also can be  very competitive because they train through running competitions which they can take too seriously! 

The down side to the 'open training' way ringcraft works if you can get the in your face vocal know it alls swamping you with heated advice rather than the helpful quieter more useful experts ..so do hunt carefully for a decenetly helpful and friendly  club.

You can get training on day courses and things like that where it is aimed all at new people and there is more care in training and getting you established as well as the competition ring experience.