Been thinking about the dogs I've owned and known my mum's, dad’s and granny's. Most of them were bred at home or by people with a lot of experience. Not all of the puppies were reared in what many of would consider 'optimal' standards. That wasn't the norm 40 years ago, and because of their size and big litters many IWs & deerhounds are still whelped in an outbuilding and/or in a fairly isolated location today.

Few of the dogs ever caused grief to anyone, but problems do arise and I've have some now or recently. There is Ben the beardie, with little known about his first months, except that he almost certainly had no socialisation with people, and may well have been mistreated in some way. He doesn't seem to have a nerve in his body, but he doesn't like or trust people, especially adults and most especially men. Finn the little lurcher was reared in a large isolated kennel with a decent level of physical care and human contact. He loves people, is fine with other animals, but is surprisingly (to me - see later) jumpy about strange situations. Megan the wolfie was also reared in an isolated place, though she had far more individual attention and care as a whelp. She was an outgoing pup and thoroughly enjoys human and animal visitors, but she dislikes new situations and being away from home strongly (though she doesn't panic, its obvious that she hates it and just wants to go home), and gets very upset with the mildest chastisement, even scolding and even if it directed at another dog or at a person. Others may disagree, but whilst her temperament certainly is not correct for the breed, I wouldn't describe her as nervous, just as very sensitive. Then there was the 'sisters problem' when Flea and Rathlin after years of living happily together, fell out in a way that gradually escalated to the point where the larger Rathlin was becoming a general bully with weaker dogs and Flea - previously very confident - was becoming generally nervous. In a way Lewis is another problem. He was born and spent his first 7 months on an isolated farm, and the came to me in a place that is almost as isolated, and immediately had two 8 week periods of complete cage rest after surgery to his shoulders. I regard his temperament as sound and good and typical, but because of circumstances he has not been exposed to as many different situations as I'd like at his age, and tends - or tended - to become over-excited and hard to handle in a 'stimulating' environment. In their own ways, both Corrib and Piranha were 'problems'. Both nerveless, confident and clever dogs, Piranha exceptionally clever, both 'dominant', Corrib exceptionally so, both stubborn and willful, Piranha to a vast degree.

Many may not agree with the way I dealt with/am dealing with these problems. After a few years of trying to encourage her to enjoy the wider world, I allowed Megan to have what she wanted - the life of a homebody who is automatically comforted if another dog is being told off or even if Ian & I have a rare row. She's 11 now, so that won't change. I see her problem as mild one of nature, though I'd never have bred from her.

I see Finn's jumpiness as a mild problem of nurture and going on experience I expect him to make a complete 'recovery' as he is gradually introduced to different situations, without either chastisement or sympathy.

After trying various ways of sorting the sister situation, I decided it was one of those insoluble cases of bitch rivalry that occassionaly show up between two females of basically sound temperament and upbringing. So though I still own her, I re-homed Rathlin with her half brother. She reverted almost instantly to her previous nice, tolerant, trustworthy self and although it took a little more time Flea is back to being the naughty, confident outgoing dog she was before the problem began.

Lewis was handled much as I intend to handle Finn and passed what I hope is his final 'test' when I took his to a big Lurcher & Terrier show yesterday. Lots of activity, lots of kids (he loves children and gets particularly excited when he sees them), lots of other dogs. For the half first hour he was quite excitable, then he settled down to behave the way I expect a wolfhound to behave in a situation like that, with friendliness and interest, but with self-control and a degree of reserve and respect for his own size and strength. To my mind a correctable and hopefully corrected problem of nurture, 'though in this case an unavoidable one.

Ben's problem is completely one of nurture imo, and imo one that occurred so early and to such an extent that it is not fully soluble. He is not nervous, aggressive or even willful, but he has 'lost' the critical period from 3 - 6 weeks, and while those of you who have been following his story know he is coming on, I do not expect him ever to be quite the dog he should have been.

Both Corrib & Piranha had completely sound temperaments and excellent upbringings, but both ‘tried it on’ regularly as young adults, and Piranha kept doing it throughout her life. So did Corrib, though in later years her ‘try ons’ were rare, and done almost as a joke. I was very firm with both of them, to the point that some would call harsh or maybe worse. Despite that, or because of it, Corrib became the perfect wolfhound and though I hope, I don’t expect ever to have quite such a close relationship with another dog. Piranha beat me to an extent. She quickly, thoroughly and completely learned that there were a certain number of rules that could never be broken and behaviors that would never be tolerated under any circumstances. Because she did learn those things so completely, she was a pleasure to own, but in the small things she battled with me regularly throughout her whole life, and as often as not she won. I think I could have stopped her regular minor misbehaviors, but not I suspect without damaging a certain something in her spirit that we and others loved and appreciated – a hard to describe independent, arrogance and a well developed canine sense of humour. She wasn’t a "well trained" dog, but she was a joy to live with, never caused a problem to a thrid party and was enormous fun. IMO both were potential 'problems' of neither nature nor nurture but of individual personality.

Just a bit of philosophical musing :-).

a very interesting muse though Sharon :) and I know where you're coming from( I think :D ) you work WITH your dogs, taking into account the very different personalities that they all have. And that to me is the best way to be. You don't say 'you are a wolfie, you will act this way or you are a beardie which means you must act this way'. You let them be themselves, but that doesn't mean they are not trained.
That is how I hope I deal with my dogs, I treat them as individuals and understand that what works with one won't always work with the others, but neither do I let their differences be an excuse for bad behaviour in any of them. No dog is perfect, they all have their little quirks, but thats why we love them :D

Hi Julie, thanks :-). That's mostly what I was trying to say, though in another post I tried to add that while each and every dog is an individual with its own personality aand in some cases human created problems, I know that in some ways a beardie and a wolfie are different in a broadly predictable manner, and I try to take that into account too :-).

Hi Sharon, I think we have been here before with my original 'horses for courses' comment. I would have to agree that just because a dog is a certain breed doesn't mean it will be specific to that breed.
I also strongly feel that a lot of the problems with dogs not mixing well these days is the fact that as soon as people see another dog when out, they immediately put theirs on a lead, dogs are not allowed to be dogs and play together, the lead makes the dog think something is wrong and it goes on the defensive. This didn't happened years ago, dogs were allowed to mix and you had much less of a problem.
We have occasions when there are 12 or more dogs running around together on walks without a problem, even my GSD who can be aggressive with others. Strangely enough in these situations he takes the pack leader role and breaks up disputes amongst other, usually by using his size to run in and break them apart, then just turning and fixing them with a stare. Ingrid

I often end up with walks like that with froups of regular dog walkers in the country park. we all are sudden;y more visible again once the kids go back to school, and the park is ours again, until the next holiday or run of good weather, lol!

U think I counted 20 once my elkies, Lurchers, GSDs and Labs with some other all sorts.

Amongst our dog family we have four lurchers. Daisy, who is basically very quiet. gentle, and timid of strangers, but who makes friends with them after a few minutes, as Sharon can testify. Millie, who is friendly and well behaved, but who is very skittish around dogs that she dosnt know, totally submissive. Kloud, who is wondeful with all people and dogs, is exceptionally loving and affectionate, but can be a right little b*****!!!!!! Erin, very very extrovert, does not mix well with other bitches, likes males, at times almost uncontrolable with her affection. She had a very bad start in life and now craves affection and friendship from everyone. What would have happened if I had raised these four all in exactly the same way? A disaster waiting to happen, thats what!! We have a Bedlington, my first time owning a terrier. He is nothing at all like a terrier in temprement, as Sharon can also verify. He never ever barks, is placid well behaved, very loving and gets on with all other dogs. What would he have finished up like if I had raised him as I had been advised too? I have had quiet Wolfhounds, extrovert Wolfhounds, Wolfhounds who were rather reserved with strange men, rescued Wolfhounds , frightened of their own shadow. Every dog that we have now, and have had in the past, has been raised and trained in a manner that was suitable for its own individual personality and temprement.We have two working bearded collies. Kai the puppy, has to be treated very firmly and definately.NOT hard and unkind and dominating. Whereas Sharons working beardie needs load of reassuring and quiet, sure handling. I have a friend who has raised three sons ( all have the same dad) First son was a pain in the bum. Second son was an average boy. Third son was very studious and quiet. She raised each one in a way that was suitable to their personalities and needs. When will people begin to understand that animals are just the same?

Sharon,
After reading this thread, plus the other one you started concerning owners with dog packs viewing things possibly different than those who lack dog packs, (Hey, I'm one of those that consider 3 dogs more than enough for two people to handle ;) :D ) I"ve been doing some thinking.

Supposedly, there is a perfect ideal of a dog out there. I don't think it's a universal concept of what exactly a dog should be. This is why we all tend to argue about training and behavior. We do not share the same vision. In fact, those who disagree have been accused of anthropromorphism. Geesh :rolleyes: I guess for some, the perfect dog is velcro and instant obedience. For others, it's living with a dog that pretty much does what you want it to do and lives happily with its people. Others just want it to work the sheep and earn its keep. There are just as many views of "the perfect dog" as there are dog owners :D :D :D

What I do believe should be universal is for each owner to KNOW their dog. What does it like? What is comfort and what is awkward to it? What is its instinctive tendency in a given situation? How will it react and can the owner anticipate the stress level? It is not the same for every dog, just like people are not the same.

I would love my dogs to be sociable and play with others, but since I'm pretty much a loner, I think my natural reserve has bled over to Chienne. That's ok. At least I know how she will react in the majority of situations --off and on leash :) I can't say "all" situations just because of the sweeping generality that encompases ;)

I know how my dogs will act if they are loose. I know what will happen if Chienne is injured (she will come running straight to me). If I have fallen down, my dogs will stay by me and not attack anyone who comes to help. In a scary situation, they would rather run away than stay and fight. But they will return ASAP. Samma will take a huge amount of abuse from children without thinking even to growl--she loves them that much :D Chienne would rather sniff a child, accept a pat, and then wander off :)

Sharon, what you wrote in the above posting showed that you deeply understood each individual canine you have ever owned. I admire you for that. It takes work to understand another being much less one that doesn't ever blatantly tell you in words what its thinking. I think its a gift and one that not everyone has. I say that, not because of bragging, but that I see people who obviously don't either think of these things, or cannot understand simple body language of people and animals.

Stating that a dog is a pack animal who thinks and lives by the pack does do it a disservice. It limits the owner to believe only certain levels of performance can be accomplished and that the dog will only react to situations on this basis. The dog is no longer a wild creature living in packs. We have enhanced certain traits and de-emphasized others. If an owner does not "Know" his individual dog and lumps it into a breed/pack category....if and when that dog acts out of the ordinary, can the owner deal with the sudden paradigm shift?

Just because a dog belongs to a specific breed, it still has individual traits which differ it from another of that breed. They are individual beings with personal preferences. I believe that owners definitely need to realize and understand their dogs as such --- not to just lump them all together into the "dog is a dog is a dog" pov.
jmho
toodles

the four bitches I own are quite different one from the other, but they all share some breed specific drives/traits. this becomes very obvious when I take them out with several of another breed (working/guarding). Each dog is different one from other, but the two breeds both respond in breed specific manner when they are out.

The elkhounds in the main want to follow their noses and investigate every gap, and are drawn to cover. It is only their training, that they will stop and check on me, and will return if told no.

the dobes prefer to stay in the Open, and will be checking that everyone is together, and will watch any new person or dog coming within range to see if they pose a threat. they are totally uninterested in the scents and investigations of the elkhounds.

The traits of your different breeds sound very much like my two, Barbara ---
Samma will be investigating a hole in a ditch, whereas Chienne will be checking out the field for rabbits, birds, and deer :rolleyes:
Even when I had litter mates of Beagle/Fox Terrier mix--the two sisters were opposite in interests -- One looking up in the trees, the other scenting the ground. :) Guess it's my luck to mostly have polar opposites ;) :D