Apologies for the long post. I am in a quandary over whether I should let the family who visited yesterday have the last puppy. Breed is BT. We are keeping one and two are going to families I am comfortable with. This family are mum, dad and a 2 year old boy. Mum's boss, who has 8 dogs in total including 1 JRT puppy and 2 BTs, came with them.

They say they are well prepared and have thought things through. They have made a run and sleeping box by partitioning the garage. Normally the pup will be in the house but this is her own private area in addition. They have ordered a crate that will be inside the house for the pup's sleeping quarters that is a no go area for their son they tell me. They have an escape-proof fenced garden. They know the breed very well as mum's boss has 2 BTs mum sees every day. The pup will go with mum to work every day and join the other dogs in the boss's specially prepared kennel/run outside their office.  They plan to go with the boss to puppy socialisation/training classes.  Mum is keen for the new puppy to be her 2 year old's friend.  (She said they can't have any more children).  They are in the country and have many great walks nearby.  The boy was throwing a ball for my bitch Mij and I could see that there was the makings of a friendship.

I am concerned about the 2 year old.  He is a very big boy for his age, looking at least 3 years.  He ran around making a lot of noise, flinging his arms about and behaving like a hyperactive, unruly child. Mum was constantly telling him to quieten down.  At one point mum picked him up and he raised his hand above her head as if to strike her, which she ignored. She said he will go to the naughty step if he doesn't behave (a la Supernanny?) I left the room very briefly to collect something and when I returned the boy was raising his hand to the chosen pup (but didn't strike her)!  He was more interested in Mij than the pups.  I said that the boy would would have to be watched like a hawk with the puppy and they said he doesn't normally behave like this and they will be very careful that he doesn't mistreat the pup.  A little later she realised the boy hadn't been fed and went to the car for his food.  Dad hardly said anything during the proceedings and didn't try to control his son. To my mind this doesn't bode well for their thoroughness or diligence but am I being over concerned? Are 2 year olds nowadays like this? It seems the norm these days is far from the norm when I was a child when children were seen and not heard etc....

When talking about feeding I said the pup will need initially three small meals a day to which mum replied, looking at her boss, that one would be sufficient to which I explained that puppy has a small stomach and cannot take sufficient food in one sitting. One would have thought with a young child she wouldn't need to be told this?

Apparently, Mum had a Border Collie from a pup before they were married that had to be put down after their wedding because it developed aggression and biting habits.  They said the vet had said this sort of thing can happen but I wonder how much of the behavoir was down to its upbringing....

I could let them take the pup on the proviso that we have regular contact and if a problem develops she comes back to me immediately.  In addition my contract states pups or dogs that require rehoming at any time should come back to me. However of course in the interim the pups temperament may be seriously impaired if she is mistreated or worse!

Do members feel it is worth the risk and how great is the risk with unruly 2 year olds?  Or should I just say IMHO she has enough on her hands already and therefore I won't let the pup go to them. Not having had children of my own I lack experience. My instincts say no, but I want to be fair and I welcome your opinions.

Jon 

I'd say, go with your instincts :)  the little lad sounds like a handful on his own, without caring for a new puppy

Your instinct is raising queries in your mind as to whether this would be a good home or not:  go with your instincts!   Far better, imo, to offend a family, than have to rehome a puppy.

Margot

I'm not entirely certain what BT stands for, I can think of at least two, very different types of terrier for a start :) but it's all bye the bye as the TOS do not allow you to mention the breed when talking about your puppies as this may be construed as advertising them.
For what it is worth, I do not let any puppies go to families with young children myself.

Thanks for that Isabel.. I missed that breed can't be mentioned.. I have a waiting list in any case so I am NOT advertising!

Hi I know how you feel about letting people have a pup.

But has most have said, if you are doubting the family then best to home your pup with someone you feel more happy with.

I have young kids and they can show you up sometimes when visiting peoples houses! :D
But I did have a family come to see a pup I had for rehoming, as soon as they arrived I had my doubts about their attitude towards my dogs, pushing them away when they tried to greet them, so I did explain to them at the time that I had another family interested in the pup and that I would let them know! :D

No way would I let a puppy go there! :(  I'd suggest a soft toy for them. :)

I have a terrier breed and the behaviour you describe would put me off completely - running about throwing up hands would, in my opinion, be a big NoNo for a terrier.

Go by gut feeling because ultimatly, it's that feeling that doesn't let you down.

Afraid I'd say no too.Gail :) :) :)

I agree with everything that's been said above! My experience is, if in ever so little doubt, don't sell! Once sold, the pup is theirs, however much they promise to stay in contact.  Having no children of my own, I'm no expert, but from what you describe there seems to be  a conflict between what's in the pup's best interest, and that of the little boy's.
I've once made the mistake of letting a pup go to a family I wasn't 100% certain about, and I still regret it 10 years afterwards!
Good luck in finding a family you feel completely happy with, that will give your pup the life it deserves!
Karen

I have had pups when I have had very Young children, but I would still say no in this case.

As the others have said,go with your gut.I've seen pups refused to families where everything else is perfect,like your prospect is, except for their child!And once your pup is gone,she's gone,there is no way of getting her back without a long arduous fight,if at all.Regret is a horrible thing to have to live with...

Thanks very much for your prompt reponses everyone.   I am not surprised everyone has similar reservations.

I feel awkward about this because something I didn't mention is that the family know the stud dog owner who telephoned me to say they were interested in a pup and he put us in touch.  The mum works for the stud dog owner's girlfriend, who is the "boss" in my original post.  She clearly knows her dogs, which is why she came along as a mentor.   The mum passed my initial telephone assessment with flying colours, apart from her young lad and I did mention to her on the phone that I felt he was very young.  I am disappointed as they were the last people I had expected to make me feel like this.  I think I will phone the stud dog owner tomorrow,  express my reservations and see what he says.  If I am still unsure I will go with my gut feeling.

In my other placements, one of the families has a 3 year old boy and 9 year old girl.  They were very well behaved and had instant empathy with the puppies. Likewise, the other family has a 12 year old girl who took to them immediately.  One of the mums is a nurse, the other a midwife, which may be no coincidence...

This business of placing pups is agonizing, especially as Ktee says.. if you make a mistake you, and more importantly the pup, will probably have to live with it.

Thanks again for your input.

Hi, just thought i would add a little in defence of young families. We have 2 children aged 14 months and 3 years and we have got a little Cavalier boy. We were turned down by alot of breeders who felt that our children were too young and we wouldn't have the time for a puppy!!!
I see this as their loss now as our little boy couldn't be happier, our children have never raised a hand to him and he has an indoor cage which is left open as his chill out area if he needs to escape from the children. Whilst i appreciate that there are alot of people who may find it difficult with young children and a puppy i feel a bit sad that everyone with young children is tarred with the same brush.
I grew up with dogs as a child as did my husband and we felt it was really important that our children had the same.
That said you should always trust your instincts if you feel the family are wrong for your dogs.

if you are unhappy then say no. I judge every case on its own merits and although in my case i never think big hound & small child is a good mix...in 1 litter i had a family with 5 kids under 10 come down to see them..they travelled 200 miles with 5 kids....not a murmour.........they were all calm, perfectly behaved, all sat at table & ate a meal afteer they had seen pups...it was a joy to see. I let them have one and ts now 3 years old and loved by all and I get regular pics/visits and would happily let them have another one. However i had a family with just 1 child of 10 and i said no to them as there was no control, no discipline & it was a brat!

Don't feel pressured because they came to you recommended by the Stud dog owner, they are not his pups to sell, so it's not really any of his business, I sold a puppy to a couple with young children and I always had a niggly feeling that something wasn't right, but I was inexperienced and it was my 1st litter, so I wasn't sure if it was just me being silly.....................the pup came home a week after leaving, so in future, if I have any doubts, I'll go by those feelings. Luckily, I had another couple on the list and he left us again a week later.

A young child per se would not put me off at all if I am sure that they are going to ensure the safety of my pup.

My first two dogs arrived when I had toddlers of just over a year of age.

It is how the youngsters are allowed to behave that is the crux of the matter and whether the parent makes excuses for their behaviour.

One of my recent new puppy owners, and experienced person in dogs came with her two year old and her Mum to watch her while she talked dogs with me.

The poor child had an ear infection and got pretty fractious and at one point grandma was told to take her out to the car as she was crying, and we couldn't concentrate on the dogs.

At no point did the child take much notice of the pups, and she was perfectly unfazed and behaved respectfully to the adults that all came to have a look at her and wonder why she was so upset.  They were quite sweet trying to sympathise with her, and she showed no signs of impatience with them.

The potential owner could easily have left the child home with her Mum, especially as she wasn't well, but being in dogs herself I suspect she realised I would want to see the child interacting with my dogs, and I also suspect she wanted to check how my dogs behaved with her child.

I did once let a pup go with a family whose middle child was a right handful. when the Dad only came to pick pup up, she was bouncing all over the sofa etc.  I wrongly assumed that Dad didn't have as much control as Mum.  I ended up with the pup back as an unruly adolescent, as Mum couldn't cope when the children were all home with a spirited puppy too.

Generally people who already have dogs and mange the dog child equation well then I have no problems if they look like they can manage sensibly.  I have had more problems with older owners who don't realise they no longer have the energy for a puppy, as they assume they will cope having had lots of dogs, usually of the breed for years.

Regarding the 2 yr old, he may not be like this at home, and Dad may take more action when not in the company of stangers. Some people can be abusive towards a 'big man' sorting out their small child, whereas its not the same when Mum does it. The 'hand raising' I don't like, whilst it is best ignored, (by the parents) I would think its something he does, but wonder where he learnt this action from. Forgetting to feed him may have been due to the circumstances, and been a factor in his behaviour. (Hungry child, car journey, visiting strangers with the excitement of dogs and puppies). 2 yr olds can be exceptionally difficult, especially if they get the idea they can be centre of attention and mum can't do anything given the situation.

I would be concerned about the pups feeding, as yes she should be aware that anything young needs small regular feeds, and it sounds as if she will take advice more from her boss than you. This could be about anything, regardless of your contract. if the boss suggests something that she or you don't agree with, will she be able to stand up to her boss and refuse? The boss seems to have a lot of input with this, and if her finances depend on the job this alone could cause problems.

I wonder about pups living conditions. Where will she be before she is fully vaccinated and can mix with other dogs? Can she be kept seperate from adult dogs when she needs her puppy sleep, and will the adult dogs bully her if kept locked up with them all day while she works? if problems occur, can she leave her desk each time to sort it out?

I think your easy 'get out' is to say that, in your opinion, they would be best to wait till the 2 yr old is older, and they have more time.
You are best guided by your gut reaction, and i wish you the best of luck!

Thanks again for your views.  The stud dog owner didn't really know the family and understands my concerns.

However, the problem has gone away because I just phoned the mum, asked what she thought about their visit and she said they felt the pup was too quiet for them (she is slightly quieter than the others but frankly, in my breed this is a good thing IMHO!) and they are going to wait for now and continue looking.  So I didn't have to go into what I thought about their child thank goodness. 

We have a couple coming tonight who have 2 dogs plus a puppy 2 weeks older than ours - so a lot of experience and no unruly 2 year olds.....
All's well that ends well and thanks again

That's a relief. :) However I would have to say I personally would not sell to the second couple either, because I don't like the idea of someone having two puppies just 2 weeks apart in age......... 2 pups together are a nightmare.

...well maybe not yet......

From our own bitter experience, of keeping two puppies from one of our litters, I certainly would not think that having two puppies with only 2 weeks difference in age is an ideal situatioin.   It's not just twice as hard to train, its twice as hard squared!    You have to train individually, the puppies will bond to each other before bonding to their owner!

Don't get me wrong - I love our two dearly - but would never ever do it again!   Nor would I let anyone who had a puppy of less than a year have a second pup.

Margot

Snap! :D

Oh we did it AGAIN!!!!!

Ditto, I always advise 3 years as an ideal age gap for my breed, two years minimum.

Snap Margot, posted at same time. :) And my experiences are the same.

Great minds think alike :D :D :D :D

Margot

Hmmm....I take your point about 2 pups.   I'll see what they have to say about it.  I think the wife is driving this and if she is at home and can dedicate her time it may be a good thing in that it keeps her fully occupied!  I will discuss this with them and see what they say.  They may have done it before and know the pitfalls/extra work involved.

I wouldn't let a pup go to someone with another young pup either, I'm afraid. I'm used to multiple dogs of varying ages, then ended up keeping two from my last litter (nobody wanted a dog puppy - mind you, neither did I really, but that's a downside of breeding!) and I'd never, ever have two pups at the same time again! And I was at home fulltime too!l

Yep, count me in with the 'been there, done that, never again' group :rolleyes:

I would have to agree with everyone else! :D

At the moment I have a pup that I kept from the litter and have one of the littermates back here while new owners are on holiday, the pups are 13 wks old now and are driving me mad!!! :D

Before other pup arrived I did have mine 95 per cent house trained, but since his brother has been back its pee here, poo there! :D
And the chasing each other around knocking over things, stealing things and running out into the garden :D it is funny watching them, but there is no way I would want these two together all the time (roll on Friday when his owners collect him! :D)

Don't get me wrong he is adorable and funny but the two together are just like having two very naughty twins!

My older girls have three months between them (long story) and that was very hard to cope with them aswell as my young kids, but now they are both 3 years old, I have a very well behaved pair of girls, one that we nickname POSH as she thinks she is royalty and the other we call COMMON as she has no manners! :D

Sounds like out I'm of the frying pan into the fire...I will let this couple know exactly what everyone thinks and see what they say tonight!
Talking of names Gemini, this last pup is nicknamed "Fatik"  (Russian for Chubby).   What's in a name eh?

I would even think about them having a pup, Been their, done that, never again AND we had my mum at home at all times, I was training dogs by this point and so before and after school I was around to train one of them but still it was not happening.  The boy was my Dads, the girl mine and so they had plenty of seperate training time with each of us it just was never easy. 

Just my experiance, it doesn't matter if there's someone at home all day, and with this family they have two older dog who still will need attention and company and two puppies who will need training, attention.

People I know have had two consecutive brother and sister littermates. It has worked OK for them as each has one and trains them separately and takes them to work with them, so the puppies never spent that much time actually together (dogs were kennelled separately at night) :)

Daisy

The concensus seems to be this is a bad idea. However, at the same time I am sure those who have done it have ended up with well-behaved dogs, albeit with loads more work. I appreciate many would never do it again! 

I feel a lot depends on their circumstances.  If they can demonstrate that they have thought this through, for example if they each plan to be responsible for one pup's training, separately with not much contact between the pups, then I think it would work.

However, if they have no idea what they are letting themselves in for, then I will say no.

Thanks for the advice.

My labs are 14 months apart and it has been horrendously hard work training them! Only now that they are nearly 5 yrs and 3yrs 8 months is life beginning to get a bit easier - and I am at home full time.

I thought I would let everyone know what has happened tonight.   I am very grateful for all your opinions - I have read everybody's posts with great interest and I have to say my mind was pretty much made up (i.e. no) before their visit.

Only something quite exceptional would have led me to let Fatik go to the couple.

Well IMHO, that is what has happened! I am sorry if this sounds like heresy.

I asked them if they had raised two pups together.  He replied yes, and on the contrary he had no control problems and found it an advantage as they are pack animals. He trained his pair together.  I can't mention the breed but they are litter sisters and now 14 years old. He added he felt there would be absolutely no problem training Fatik and their other pup together.

You may imagine I was somewhat taken aback by his assurance in light of everyone's opinions on this subject.

It turns out he has worked with animals professionally all his life and he retires next year.  He is curator at an internationally acclaimed zoo. He has worked with dogs, wild dogs, wolves and is a mine of information.  He has kept dogs all his life.

He is a very keen bird watcher and Fatik will be going all over the country on bird watching trips. And yes he does know that famous bird watcher we see on the box.

I wasn't about to argue with this absolutely charming man,  and I bow to his superior knowledge.

Ok it may be a risk... but in the circumstances one I am prepared to take.

I hope everyone understands!
jon

Well - it sounds as if your Fatik has hit the jackpot!    Glad that it is all working out well!

Margot

Sounds wonderful! Im sure your pup will have a fantastic life, great news

If your gut says this is the good home then go for it.  It's your choice, no-one on here will be able to tell you it was wrong or right, only personal opinions and experiances.

Good news Jon, just one question - can I go live with them?! :-D

My sister raised two litter brothers together. RR X Great Danes; they were fantastic dogs. They were every bit as bonded to her and her husband as to each other. It can be done and it sounds like Fatik is going to have a fantastic life.

Hi Lori!

I don't have the huge grin emoticom for some reason, but if I had it would be all over this post!

I'll ask him if he'd like another family member ;-)

Seriously, I am absolutely thrilled as you may imagine!  Poor Fatik, the chubby pup, the smallest who ate her way to being the largest, the last to be chosen, has landed squarely on her little paws.

I know many people have had bad experiences raising 2 puppies together, but this chap and your sister managed it.  Power to them I say!

I am still glowing inside from yesterday
Jon

Is the other pup they have the same sex as Fatik?

Just on the pack part. 

In the wild a pack consists of a male and female and offspring from earlier litters that are content with being subordinate.  Those who are more dominant will leave the pack and disperse to form their own packs.

Many of us would not be happy for our dogs to live the kind of life pack dynamics would dictate.

Last year we had a rescue situation in our breed where 23 dogs consisting of parents and part litters lived as a pack.

I fostered 3 of them and had no problems with them and my dogs, but all 3 were subordinate animals and were very subordinate to my won dogs until they realised they did not need to show the amount of appeasement they considered needed.

In their former home when rescue came to see about them the more dominant individuals set about the younger lower ranking ones in what most of us would deem and unacceptable harsh and aggressive manner.  The dominant animals ruled with a rod of iron.

Also they were pack minded, not people minded.  Not what most of us need in a pet.

Similar things ahve been seen in captive wolf packs, as the animals cannot disperse.

Hi Jon

I would say absolutly NOT!!!

I wouldnt believe also that they have so much expierance with BTs either as it doesnt sound like it!

We encountered people like this with a litter we had and we knew straight away the pup would end up in a home, as people like that wont bring it back to you will they? or worse, being mistreated as i wouldnt trust that boy alone with a rubber duck let alone a vunerable pup.
and remembering that puppies are SO sensitive to body language, the boys body language is going to make the lovely pup an a over boisterous puppy possibly unpredictable as well which is NOT GOOD! and if the lady cant control her son, how will she be a pack leader to her dogs? I bet they all walk over her

I have two dogs aged 3 and 4 with only 8 months between them. It has been an absolute nightmare at points. THey lead each other astray on walks so now other than walking them seperately they get walked one on an extendible whilst the other has a run and swap every ten minutes. They are not dependant on each other as we always made sure they were used to being separate but it has definately dampened my parents enjoyment of the dogs (they aren't as doggy as me).

If there is any advise I would give unsusspecting new owners is DO NOT GET TWO DOGS CLOSE IN AGE. My two have learnt bad habits from one another and it makes some walks a night mare where I come home regretting I ever went out - not what a life with dogs should be like.

I have no experience of breeding but I would not give a couple with a dog only 2 weeks older than the one they are about to get.
sorry.

Would you let them have a pup?

If in any doubt 'NO'

Maria :)

my advise would be no way.  you are obviously unsure so dont do it. the right family will come along

they might have done it before but 14 years is a long time ago, the trouble is you forget very quickly how hard it really was.
my puppy is keeping me on my toes i never remember freya being this much hard work, but i have no doubt she was but my point is i have already forgotten and freya is only 2 1/2.
i have also had 2 pups together 3 months apart it was terriable and in the end i opted to rehome 1 this is one mistake never to be repeated i have definitely learnt from my mistake

I'm going to come in on the other side - we got 2 boys together and had no trouble until we added a bitch puppy 3 1/2 years later. One of the breeders actually said she wouldn't have let us have a puppy if she hadn't known we were getting another puppy (different breed but similar size) so that they would have company while we were at work (only 3-4 hours at a time as I come home every lunchtime). If they have done it before and are so very experienced in dog owning and training, and you like them, it sounds like they know how to cope with the extra work. :-)