Can anyone tell me what the situation here is? I believe in the USA, you can't show undocked dogs - so what happens to puppies who are booked to go abroad, but can't be docked here?

Thanks in advance

I don't know but as they crop ears of pups that are several months old (or even adult) I'd imagine they will quite possibly operate to remove the tail just like you would amputate it due to injury. After all, if they can crop ears and de-bark etc.......

Yep thats what happens, the tail is amputated.

I'm neither pro nor anti-docking (having never had a breed of my own that was docked) but I have to say I would NEVER send a puppy to a country where they'd amputate it's tail for cosmetic reasons when it's already got used to having one!  What exhibitors in the States do to their poor dogs sometimes beggers belief -  then they profess to be dog lovers.

Debs

That is exactly how I feel Debs. 

is that true? You can not show a dog of a traditionally docked breed in the USA unless it has it's tail docked or amputated?

I can't believe that!!!

What I can believe is that exhibitors in the USA would not show an undocked dog for fear it would be disadvantaged.

Dawn R.

>Can anyone tell me what the situation here is? I believe in the USA, you can't show undocked dogs - so what happens to puppies who are booked to go abroad, but can't be docked here?

From the AKC Breed standard for Russian Black Terriers

>Neck, Topline, and Body Neck: The neck should be thick, muscular and powerful. Length is not to be excessive. There should be no pendulous or excessive dewlap. The length of the neck and the length of the head should be approximately the same. An excessively thick neck is considered a fault. Body: The whole structure of the body should give the impression of strength. The chest is deep and wide. The shape should be oval and reach to the elbows or a little below. The withers are high, pronounced and well developed. The topline is level and straight. The loin is short. The abdomen is well tucked up and firm. Withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. Croup is wide, muscular, moderately long slightly sloping toward the high tail set. Tail is set high, thick and docked with 3 to 5 vertebrae left. An undocked tail is not to be penalized.

From the AKC Breed standard for Great Dane

>Ears shall be high set, medium in size and of moderate thickness, folded forward close to the cheek. The top line of the folded ear should be level with the skull. If cropped, the ear length is in proportion to the size of the head and the ears are carried uniformly erect

Where did you get the idea that you cannot show traditionally docked/cropped breeds undocked/cropped ? Friend of mine took her boxers(uncropped)to the USA when she got married & made several up & she still doesn't crop !

But then again "The Boxer"

>An undocked tail should be severely penalized.

You could, I suppose, still show it though,

The Cocker and English Cocker are simply described as docked with no mention at all of an undocked option.

Nowhere does it say they cannot be shown & I understand from my Boxer showing friend that as docking is now banned most of the EU the AKC breed standards are being looked at to allow for this

Interesting from the AKC King Charles(Known as the English Toy Spaniel in the USA) breed standard

>Tail The tail is docked to two to four inches in length and carried at or just slightly above the level of the back. The set of the tail is at the back's level. Many are born with a shorter or screw tail which is acceptable. The feather on the tail should be silky and from three to four inches in length, constituting a marked "flag" of a square shape. The tail and its carriage is an index of the breed's attitude and character.

Yet in the UK they were a traditionally docked breed !

>Tail Docking optional(this was originally Traditionally changed to allow for undocked dogs-my note).Docked: Well feathered, not carried over or above level of back. Undocked: Well feathered, not carried over or above level of back. In overall balance with the rest of the dog

That is what I said, they could be shown :) but unless they change the standard to accomodate foreign dogs and lets face it America has a proud tradition of parochialism ;) I am guessing the statement of "severely penalized" will continue to stand.  To me, that carries a fair risk that an adult amputation may be carried out.

Wasn't there that Swedish spaniel champion that came to campaign over here and had its tail docked specially? Didn't the outcry cause the KC to amend the rules to prevent that happening again?

Yes JG :D and the same exhibitor went on to make up the first fully tailed Sh Ch in the breed too.

Dawn R.

I don't know that one JG.  Do you mean there was a specific rule brought in about adult amputations before we had the show docking ban?  Mind you I suppose that be covered under the KCs discretion to disallow exhibiting under any conformation changing surgery anyway wouldn't it? I must say, as a pro docker, I am all for laws preventing adult amputations apart from welfare cases.

Thanks for all your input, we seem to be up against it dont we! :rolleyes:
The Spinone revised proposed standard states:
"Tail: Follows the line of the croup, thick at the base, carried horizontally or down; flicking from side to side while moving is preferred.  It is customarily docked to a length of 6 to 10 inches.  Undocked, the tail is thick, particularly at the base, set on as a continuation of the croup and carried horizontally or down.  The tail should lack fringes. Tail habitually carried above the level of the back or straight up when working is to be penalized."

This is far as I know hasnt been approved it currently states:

Tail: Follows the line of the croup, thick at the base, carried horizontally or down; flicking from side to side while moving is preferred. The tail should lack fringes. It is docked to a length of 5 1/2 to 8 inches. Tail habitually carried above the level of the back or straight up when working is to be penalized.

We have heard that dogs will be penalized for having their tail.  We now cant dock here, so we send pups to USA then they may be "amputated" for cosmetic reasons.  I hate that word - the thought of a puppy having its tail amputated, surely would be kinder to "dock" at 2 days old!!!

Now unless you can dock the puppy to send to the states at 2 days for "working" purposes there would be on way around it, also you couldn't tell at 2 days which pup to send over there.

The only option is let the american's amputate it or not send a puppy over there. (unless of course they would be happy to show a full tail and get penalised and just use the dog for mainly breeding for new blood lines.