On channel 4, boys school documentary, i didnt look at it because i knew it was going to be killed but then heard it screaming when they didnt kill it properly,yuk!

Haven't watched it but it happens that they are killed out right :)

They let the boys do it the first time and they didnt kill it outright, the teacher did the second one properly!

Normally I can watch things like this no problem but I admit I had to turn it over! It was the amatuer-ish approach that made me think something was going to go wrong. Felt sorry for that poor boy who kept offering to buy the rabbits off him!

The boys had 2 attempts at hitting the rabbit on the back of the head, before the teacher took over and gave the killing blow.  I think if they're going to teach children to do this then they should have one go and if it isn't fatal the teacher should immediately kill the rabbit, not let is suffer for a few minutes whilst they re-arrange their hold on it, try again, re-position it and then kill it.

I didn't watch this programme or know anything about it, why were they killing rabbits?

Were they sick????

I feel sick, after reading this. :-(

I'm not sure of the name - I was channel hopping and caught the programme just as the 'rabbit' part started.  From what I can work out it was some kind of school (for boys I think) where they taught things like hunting (using terriers, guns etc).

Only saw about 10 mins of it, that was enough.....

Thanks for the explanation,

I can't see the relevance though :-( even if hunting, dogs or guns are used to hunt rabbits etc, the hunter does not usually have a live rabbit brought to them to hit on the head until dead, I don't get it:rolleyes: it is cruelty for cruelties sake as far as I can see. I hope that the programme was flooded with complaints.

You did well to watch 10 minutes! What on earth was that teaching boys, we don't live in the stone age where we have to hunt for our food now, we've got the supermarket ;-) What relevance was there to it? When would the boys want to use such a skill ??

Things like this make me mad, Rant, Rant! Rant over.

>even if hunting, dogs or guns are used to hunt rabbits etc, the hunter does not usually have a live rabbit brought to them to hit on the head until dead,

If you're out shooting then a good dog will retrieve injured game for the handler to dispatch. No good gundog would actually kill the wounded prey.

>we don't live in the stone age where we have to hunt for our food now

Hunting for your own food like this was very common during the last war, never mind the stone age! I think it's something everyone should be able to do, although vegetarians could perhaps be excused. :)

I think it's something everyone should be able to do, although vegetarians could perhaps be excused. 


I am not a vegetarian but I am happily excusing myself from this exercise, if there was total devastation and I had to go back to  hunting for my own food, then it may be a useful skill to teach for survival, unless these boys wish to be gamekeepers or work with gundogs on shoots or as rabbit food processors, then it is a useful skill to have otherwise it is just cruel and barbaric in my opinion and nothing will change that.

I certainly would not send my boys on such a course.

I did not see it but presumably it was survival skills that were being taught.  Personally I would like all children to grow up knowing what it is to kill an animal and how it should be done humanely whatever hobbies or survival needs they may have in the future.  I think it is our increasing distance from such things in modern society that leads to our lack of interest in how that piece of meat arrived on the plastic tray in the supermarket and consequently our indifference to the cruelty of factory farming.

We shall have to agree to differ, I only agree with killing things for a reason, a real reason, i.e for food or to relieve pain when it comes to animals, I don't believe in teaching a skill that will most probably never be used by any of those boys.

I also would not like my boys to become hardened to the fact of smashing a rabbits head in just to learn how to do it, my boys are taught to love life and animals, these rabbits they killed were not ill or sick and needed to be put out of their misery that is what I find sick, it was for no reason other than a practical exercise in how to do it.

This exercise could easily have been taught by reading about it or even on a model in this day and age, no boy needs to physically bash in the brains of an animal.

Sorry, but I totally disagree. I would like everyone in the world to be aware of the reality of life and death, and do away with all squeamishness and taboo about the ending of life. I would want everyone to be able to humanely dispatch an injured animal rather than prolong its suffering.

>This exercise could easily have been taught by reading about it or even on a model in this day and age

That implies that vets should learn how to euthanase our pets by reading about it, not by actually doing the Deed.

That implies that vets should learn how to euthanase our pets by reading about it, not by actually doing the Deed.
:-D

Sorry, but that is completely off track, those boys were not training to be vets.

[I would want everyone to be able to humanely dispatch an injured animal rather than prolong its suffering.
i]

But, most of us infact probably 90% of the population are ever unlikely to come across a suffering animal that they need to despatach.

We are on completley different wave lenghts here by the look of it, it is just totally irrelevant IMO, I don't fish either nor wish to learn how to. Just because some people hunt rabbits or catch fish does not mean we all have to learn how to do it.

>those boys were not training to be vets

No, they were being taught to be skilled human beings. How do we know they won't want to train to be vets in the future?

>most of us infact probably 90% of the population are ever unlikely to come across a suffering animal that they need to despatach.

I'd suggest that most people with dogs will at some stage come across an injured or sick animal that requires dispatch. Many people on here have asked what to do when they come across a myxied rabbit; people knock pheasants when they're driving; people's pet cats catch birds and mice ... the list is endless.

>We are on completley different wave lenghts here by the look of it

On that I totally agree!

sorry carrington cannot agree....being able to kill a rabbit humanely is a very useful skill....and you are wrong....out dogs and indeed any decent ruinning dogs, catch and then retrieve live rabbits to hand for us to dispatch....we dont want the dogs to crunch them up making them unsellable & bruised!! we were all taught to humanely and swiftly kill a rabbit at an early age and its stood us in good stead wether its attending a road side accident or hunting.

And we wonder why there are so many animal cruelty cases in the world, when they teach kids to do this at school, I think its terrible

Teaching how to kill animals quickly and efficiently is the opposite of cruelty. ;)

I don't see why teaching children to do this properly would cause them to be cruel to animals, quite the opposite infact. 

I with Carrington on this one, I don't want to start a big Debate as everyone has their own opinion.

I would just class this as cruelty, IMO I would put this sort of teaching in the same category as testing on animals.  I would never want my sons to learn this sort of thing. It is sick.
Put it this way, if it was a dog that they was being taught to kill would you be happy??  A rabbit is a living creature as much as the dog is.

I can't see any logic to your thoughts I am afraid.  We euthanase dogs and vets are trained by someone who has done it before to ensure they do it humanely.  Similarly, slaughterhouse men are taught their skills.  I suppose you are a vegetarian but even so, surely you want those that do deal with the slaughter of animals not to just learn it by experimentation!

agree with sam - a good running dog brings back your rabbit alive. You kill it (preferably by breaking its neck, not hitting it on the head), otherwise dogs who kill MANGLE rabbits and who the **** wants to eat mangled rabbit? its all bruised and only good for a hot hot curry or it tastes a bit nasty.

I think these kids should ahve been shown PROPERLY how to kill the rabbit, it is a useful skill and remains so today, i was shown and i use it if my dogs catch or if i see a mixy bunny, its far kinder to kill it quickly than do what some people do, which is take the poor rabbit home and take it to the vets to be pts.... (doubtless spreading its myxy fleas everywhere too).

Havent seen the program though, i mean tto watch and forgot.

Yes we I agree a skill that should be taught. Ok perhaps a more usefull skill in the country :)

>its far kinder to kill it quickly than do what some people do, which is take the poor rabbit home and take it to the vets to be pts....

Taking a wild animal to the vet is the height of cruelty. Wild animals are terrified of humans and human contact, and deliberately to prolong their exposure to the source of their terror is inexcusable. A quick death is far more humane.

I was horrified to discover that some people would even begin to think that it was a 'kind' thing to do to an injured animal!

(im not talking about such situations where one cannot dispatch an animal, such as a deer and taking it to someone who can is kinder than leaving it to suffer... i mean those who actually think it kinder to have a vet pts say a rabbit, than for me to break its neck there and then...).

I once, unthinkingly i admit, HORRIFIED a group of neighbours on my old estate - theyhad an injured woodpigeon in a box, it was quite clearly going to croak but was doing so very slowly (cat victim) - they were waiting until 'someone' could take it 'somewhere' .. i pointed out the vets treat wildlife for free but no one really wanted to take it there, whilst everyone wanted something to be done, no one wanted to do it themselves.

After 3 hours of this poor bird slowly dying in a box with a group of old ladies trying to feed it things, i said id sort it out, and necked it...

MUCH horror..... despite most of them by this point agreeing that the vet or bird sanctuary would have euthanised it anyway..

But theyd have preferred to leave it in a box for even a few days...

I can see both sides but if this was a programme basically teaching how to hunt for pleasure :( to these youngsters, the first priority is to have as little animal suffering as possible and from what we are told, this did not happen as the rabbit was not in any way killed outright, but was allowed to suffer (because of tv, the kids learning to do it, whatever ...) To me that's just not acceptable.

It is sometimes kinder to despatch than to leave to suffer, but this wasn't really what was happening on this programme - it was more a case of the animal suffering due to a botched attempt.

The emphasis should be on compassion (even with humans who hunt) IMHO ... if animals are going to be killed, let it be quick and humane whatever the method.

Not botched attempts on tv for goodness' sake!!

Let's not forget that there is a proven fine line between animal cruelty and human cruelty.

Just my view.

Lindsay
x

I think the link between animal cruelty and human cruelty is regarding deliberate acts, surely.  A botched attempt is not a deliberate act of cruelty and is, unfortunately, inevitably going to happen on an occasion or two, when the process is being learned. 
I can't see how anyone could learn to do this properly without, at one stage or another, moving beyond the theoretical and attempting the practical. 
I did not actually see the programme so I would be interested to hear comment on whether the boys were approaching it in a suitable, thoughtful way or whether they were showing the least signs of pleasure at any signs of suffering.  I think we should judge it on that as to whether these boys are at all likely to grow up to be sadistic torturors.

That's correct - 'cruelty' involves the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering to see the reaction to that pain. Failing, through inexperience or other circumstances, to avoid causing pain and suffering although trying not to, isn't cruelty. It's the intention behind the action that defines whether or not a person is being cruel.

'cruelty' involves the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering to see the reaction to that pain.

Well, I would certainly say those healthy rabbits didn't enjoy boys having a go at bashing their heads in a couple of times I would say they were in incrediable pain, screaming is a really good sign that something is in pain. The 'teacher' then had to take over to kill the poor things when the boys did not do it correctly.  If this was not cruelty then I don't know what is.:rolleyes:

Taking anything healthy, breathing and living and killing it just for a lesson is cruel.

I'm not an animal activist, I'm not against some animal testing for advancing science, but I am against an un-needed act like this, and it turns my stomach.

You miss the point. Were the boys trying to cause pain, or were they trying to kill the rabbit quickly? That's what defines whether or not they were being cruel. It seems, from what's been said, that they were being taught (although they hadn't yet mastered the skill) how to kill with the minimum of suffering. That's the total opposite of cruelty and is a skill that's likely to come in very useful in the future.

How would you suggest they learn these skills?

[/How would you suggest they learn these skillsi]

That! Isabel is my whole point, they don't need to learn these skills, I live in the country, so am more apt to run into a sick animal, or want a rabbit pie :-) (though to be honest, never to date have I seen a sick animal, only dead, never hurt) and if I did I doubt I would end it's life, I would leave that to the foxes, badgers or large mammals, my boys will never use that skill, they will toddle off to work in towns or doing whatever trade they wish to do when grown up and that is why I find it sick, it is not a skill a boy will be using as far as I am concerned it just isn't.

I've been lucky too.  The couple of occasions that I have come across injured rabbits Hubby was with me and able to do the deed.

>if I did I doubt I would end it's life, I would leave that to the foxes, badgers or large mammals

I think that is far crueler than what these boys were learning to do.
Presumably they were on the course in the first place because they do consider that they will be leading a lifestyle or in an environment where the skill will be of use.

I think that is far crueler

Perhaps, but not all of us and I don't think I'm alone can kill and most of us don't want to learn how to do it either, it was not good tv. If they were despatching Mixy rabbits I could have stomached that funnily enough, it's the fact they used healthy ones I can't accept, it just goes against the whole concept of learning how to kill to be kind as it wasn't.

>it's the fact they used healthy ones I can't accept, it just goes against the whole concept of learning how to kill to be kind as it wasn't.

Sorry I have lost track a bit but did you say you were a vegetarian or not.  If not, you already buy into the concept that what matters is it is done humanely rather than if the animals are fit and healthy.  In fact I think we would rather hope they were!

Sorry I have lost track a bit but did you say you were a vegetarian or not.  If not, you already buy into the concept that what matters is it is done humanely rather than if the animals are fit and healthy.  In fact I think we would rather hope they were!

I don't think you have lost track, just changed direction, we are not talking about mass food producers and how they kill the animals we eat.

We are talking about a group of boys, killing for no reason I can think of.  When they are grown men who are wanting to work in a trade of human food producing, though I doubt they whack rabbits on the head, (might be wrong, but I would think that would take too long) then there is a reason.

This exercise had no reason.

I believe rabbits are slaughtered in this way for food production, certainly for personal consumption.  Another reason is a wish to learn survival skills when travelling for instance or merely for animal welfare on the occasions that demand it.  So lots of reasons really even if you can't think of any :)

Skill or no skill I still do not agree with it being healthy rabbits used for training, and regards how do vets learn their job, well from what I seen vets go to vet college and learn to PTS sick, injured animals that go to the college for treatment, they do not go and pick a healthy animal and practice injecting them with the PTS stuff.  And I have never heard of or seen a vet wack an animal on the head to kill it!!
As I have said before, if these boys are being taught this 'SKILL' then how would you feel if it was dogs, cats or an animal that you have at home?? would your views be different, and if we really want to carry on this 'debate' then lets suggest to these 'skilled' schools that teach children to wack an animal on the head to kill that maybe they go to the local RSPCA and grab a couple of animals from there to murder, hey its a skill they will need surely?

Lay people, out and about are not likely to be carrying euthansia equipment even if they could legally use it.  Vets do not generally euthanase small animals in this way but I think that has a great deal more to do with a sensitivity towards their owners as it is a humane way of doing it once one has gone through the process of learning it.
I don't think people should let their squeamishness override recognising what is and what isn't humane.

Believe me Isabel, i am no way *squeamishness*

I just think that it is wrong to show or teach children to do this and to use healthy animals or infact ANY animal to do so, as it is a sport that these children may or may not use this 'skill' for I think its wrong.

To open the eyes a little and lets suggest other 'skills' that we could teach children errrr how about:

How to use a shot gun just incase of an intruder or terrorist attack

How do drive a car at a young age incase of an emergency and also how to break into a car and start it without keys in case of an emergency

I know this may sound very sycastic (which I cannot spell :D) but I am just trying to point out how I feel about this sort of thing.

I would not want to see an animal suffering, but I would not like to see healthy animals being used for 'teaching a skill to children ever'

See my answer to Carrington, same territory :)

Rabbits are food animals (our wild rabbits are descendents of those imported to this country for that purpose during the Roman occupation - they aren't a native species), and food animals aren't put down by lethal injection - unless of course you intend to kill those who eat them as well. The rabbit in our dogs' food is likely to have been slaughtered this way, remember.

>I doubt I would end it's life, I would leave that to the foxes, badgers or large mammals

I personally believe that it's far crueller to leave an animal to suffer than to end its suffering. It just shows that different people have different priorities. :)

>my boys will never use that skill, they will toddle off to work in towns or doing whatever trade they wish to do when grown up

They might wish to become slaughtermen, and will need to be taught how to kill humanely.

Carrington,
Im confused...

>I didn't watch this programme or know anything about it<

then you say..

>Well, I would certainly say those healthy rabbits didn't enjoy boys having a go at bashing their heads in a couple of times I would say they were in incrediable pain, screaming is a really good sign that something is in pain. The 'teacher' then had to take over to kill the poor things when the boys did not do it correctly<

Is it being repeated on Cable/sky....? I'd like to see it before commenting too.

No, I didn't personally see it thank goodness, but some of my friends did, a description of what happend isn't difficult to envisage, I'm sure everyone who has just read this post has a pretty good idea of what happend and all have their own opinions on it. I didn't watch Sadam get hanged either I found it distastful, but I know just as much from what others have said.  You don't need to personally watch something to have an opinion on it.

Do we know if the rabbits were eaten afterwards?  If they were then they were going to be killed anyway.  I'm not saying it's not unfortunate that the boys messed it up and I think everyone on here would have been far happier if they'd done it right the first time, but if the rabbit was then eaten or used to feed another animal I can understand why they used healthy ones!

Debs

This is an interesting debate, and one which makes me think of the "what-ifs" of this sterile, supermarket society that we all seem to be heading towards.

What if.........we are struck down by a pandemic such as avian flu/sars/heavens only knows what.     Communications may break down.   Supermarkets will quickly be devoid of all food and supplies.    Let's take this one step further ....law and order break down........and its not totally impossible that quite quickly we could loose all our modern technology and skills.   So what then?     If we have to go completely back to basics, who will survive?

Who will know which plants can be eaten and which cannot?   More importantly - where will the plants themselves come from?     Who will know how to cultivate and harvest such crops?    How many people will be able to successfully feed their families?   Protein - where will that come from?   How many people will be able to successfully rear animals - be they rabbits/gueinipigs (sp???) or goats?   And who will be able to despatch them swiftly and painlessly?

Who will be able to make the clothes?   Weave the cloth?

Who will be able to teach these still so-necessary life skills?

Margot (going out on a fanciful survival limb ;) )

Along that theme, Margot, I would mention again that I beleive if people were more aware of the actualities of slaughter there were be more interest and concern about welfare with regards to it in general.  Personally the more young people that can learn about this the better for the welfare of all animals, wild or food reared.

What worries me with programs like this is that they are showing the way to kill, and as we know kids practice things they see from video games etc, there is a risk they may think this type of killing is Ok. Then, they may well practice on the neighbours dog, cat etc. The program is (from whats said here, didn't see it myself) actually showing how to kill, how to botch it, and how to do it correctly.
I'm not saying large groups of Adults/kids will do this, but you never know, do you. I don't expect video games were expected to be acted out either.

I don't actually believe that all kids need to know how to kill an animal. This can be taught should they join a group where it is needed, either as teens or adults. Survival skills if they so require it, or as gamekeepers etc.

I beleive if people were more aware of the actualities of slaughter there were be more interest and concern about welfare with regards to it in general.  Personally the more young people that can learn about this the better for the welfare of all animals, wild or food reared.

I agree. They can learn, but they don't have to be taught, and actually do, the killing to learn about it.

:-D  now you've depressed me Margot!

Thank goodness life is good, I'm off to the supermarket. :-P