I'm having a major problem with Hattie, the 2 year old delinquent Dobe. She just will not walk to heel and insists on throwing herself about at the end of the lead. Because of her unpredictable nature with other dogs and anything that moves, I muzzle her whilst out. Now I have tried all sorts of various training methods with little or no improvement. But the main problem is that she is wearing out the hair around her neck, it looks awful and feels lumpy and hardened. Can anyone suggest anything? I've used harnesses, various headcollars (which proves difficult with the muzzle on), leather and nylon collars. Short of never taking her out I can't see how to improve the situation.

A nice wider than normal (approaching hound collar style), leather collar with padding - spreads the load adn the suede and padding should stop the damage.

It WONT stop the pulling, id try the 'be a tree' method and stick at it (long past the point you want to give up, turn the dog into an unusual rug, and go home for wine).

Its more than a tad annoying, i have a collie mix (springer and gsd...... eek) who does a stunning impression of a horizontal yo-yo.

I think I'm developing the strongest shoulder muscles ever and I know exactly what you mean with the horizontal yo-yo! I just wish there were signs of improvement, no matter how small.

We used a halti with our Dobe as she used to pull like a train.
Mary

I don't know what impact it has on the dog but someone I see out walking has one of those shock absorber attachments that goes between the collar and lead and says it makes a huge difference.

We got one of these for my dad to use with Bramble when she was younger and would lunge at things(halti too complicated for him - he would have had her head through the nose bit :-) ). It did make a difference to the strength of her pull. We got it at PAH I think.

I sympathise completely having a borzoi who doesn't like other dogs either. I've found the best solution for him is a halti headcollar when on lead, with the other end of the lead attached to a metal choke chain. That way he's using the halti most of the time and the chain is just loose so not ruining his hair round his neck. When he gets wound up over another dog he can, and has on many occasions get out of his headcollar (we've tried every make!) so thats when I use the chain. I take his halti off and put his muzzle on before I let him off lead. He doesn't need to wear a muzzle on his lead - it would have to be a pretty stupid dog to come up to him while he's shouting at it - and we haven't met one that silly yet.

The suggestion of the thick hound collar is fine for protecting your dogs neck, but you've no idea how strong they can be pulling on one of those. Mine have a variety of silk and satin lined 2" hound collars but I wouldn't use one outside on Mr Beastly.

I know that some people will not like this, but with my dobes I have been known to use pinch collars or choke chains. These work perfectly and I am pleased to say that I can walk both my dobes 1 weighs 45kg and the other 33kg at the same time no problems and I am only a small framed 5' 2" if this equipment is used in the correct manner then i can't see any problems with it. :-)

Pinch collars IMO are crule however check chains are fine.  Chamsongs idea of headcollar one end and check the other is a good idea.  Never thought of doing that before but can see how it would work.  Also I think there's a thread on here somewhere where someone says there is one make of head collar that is suitable with a muzzle? 

I'm having a major problem with Hattie, the 2 year old delinquent Dobe. She just will not walk to heel and insists on throwing herself about at the end of the lead. Because of her unpredictable nature with other dogs and anything that moves, I muzzle her whilst out. Now I have tried all sorts of various training methods with little or no improvement. But the main problem is that she is wearing out the hair around her neck, it looks awful and feels lumpy and hardened. Can anyone suggest anything? I've used harnesses, various headcollars (which proves difficult with the muzzle on), leather and nylon collars. Short of never taking her out I can't see how to improve the situation.

When you say you've used all sorts of training methods, what have you tried? also have you tried a sensible one to one reputable trainer? :)
If not try here for one near to you www.apdt.co.uk

Sometimes a double ended lead (the Halti lead is gorgeous, all padded :D ) can help, attached to harness and either a collar or headcollar, as you have 2 points to control the dog. Also a specialised harness such as the Halti with the attachment for the lead at the front.

Have you seen anyone for the cause of the problem? If the cause is fear, then you would need help in desensitising and counterconditioning. If the dog has other reasons for this behaviour then you could use training to give you more control (trained to an advanced level, can all be done motivationally).

I'd not use prong collars or check chains - they would be more likely to cause a raised head carriage IMO which would certainly not help.

Hth

Lindsay
x

Thanks for the replies. I have tried various headcollars (halti's, padded and not, dogmatics, leather and fabric, canny collar, which is the only one I can use at the same time as the muzzle and another that I can't remember the name of). All of these leave an indentation followed by hairloss and swelling across her nose because she pulls so hard. I've tried half checks and full checks which have little effect and damage the hair under her neck. I've tried normal collars, leather and fabric, but because she throws herself about so much the collars wear away the hair and cause lumps to appear. On a harness, I've tried a few including the halti, I've got no control of her head which is a nightmare when she's lunging at dogs/people. I've also tried bungee leads. I don't know what else to try.

With regards to her behaviour I've no idea where the problems stem from. I actually bred her, Mum and Dad etc. are nothing like this, in fact her Mum is the other end of the scale, loves everyone and everything. She was well socialised from an early age and she lives with 4 other dogs and I just can't fathom out why she is like she is. At home she is the most affectionate dog imaginable.

I have seen a behaviourist, but to be honest she was next to useless. I've tried contacting a number of trainers for some one to one but no-one comes back to me. At one point I even considered residential training. I certainly can't take her to a training class as she just goes mental in a hall environment (we did go to puppy socialisation classes and then basic obedience classes but after her first season when we re-joined the classes she went loopy, but even before this she was never that friendly to dogs or people). She has been spayed.

The first thing I must say - DO NOT use a prong/pinch or choke collar.  If you have an aggressive dog, you don't want to use anything that will cause discomofrt or pain of any kind - it will be associated with other dogs when she's focused on them, and make her worse.

With that said, have you tried a harness/headcollar combination?  I believe that is what Lindsay is describing, you use a double-ended training lead, with one end connected to the headcollar and the other to the harness.

My dobe girl is exactly hwo you describe yours on a walk - throws herself about on just a headcollar or just a harness, reacts strongly to other dogs.  Unless we're following trails on one of our walks, I walk her on a headcollar/harness combo - I use a halti headcollar (would prefer a gentle leader but can't afford one) and a halti harness, with the lead attached to the ring on the back.  It works wonders - took all of one walk for her to start walking at my pace, next to me.  If she starts to pull I sort of jiggle the ends of the lead - tug gently on one, then the other, back and forth - and it stops her almost immediately.  This, I should point out, is a dog with a 5 1/2 year history of VERY strong pulling, and being allowed to do whatever she wanted - the day I met her she actually pulled her owner into the road quite happily.

Re. the training; Lindsay's given you the good links I think.  Look for someone who uses positive methods only, for the reason I mentioned above - any pain or punishment will make things worse.  I certainly wouldn't take her to a training class - that would be overwhelming with the same result.  I also wouldn't consider residential training, as you've no way to know exactly what methods they use.

One last thing, you mention no apparent reason for this behaviour - have you had her examined medically (incl. blood/thyroid testing)?  PArt of Soli's aggression, both to other dogs and to me (resource guarding) stems from pain in her right hip, which I only realised recently.  She's since had a tentative diagnosis of arthritis and a four-week course of chiropractic treatment, and the difference is fantastic - not only did I manage to give her the first bath she's ever had the other day, but she let a staff mix walk past a few days back only 3 feet away and didn't bat an eyelid!

Question, have you had her checked for thyroid disfunction??
Other medical problems?

Reason why I ask is that a friend has a Boxer like this.
Totally OTT when out at dog shows it's like he goes into sensory overload.
However at home you couldn't ask for a better dog.

Turns out after a fight with another male in their own kennels that his coat condition
went and after blood tests they discovered his thyroid problem.
OTT behaviour can be one of the symptoms of thyroid disfunction.

It's also interesting to note that you had problems with your girl after her first season.
So it could well be hormone imbalance that has caused her erratic behaviour.
The trick is trying to re balance and then re-train the 'excitement-uncontrollable' behaviour she's learned..
Have you tried stuff like evening primrose oil to see if this will help?
Once you get her to 'chill out' then the retraining would be easier for you...
Fingers crossed for a suitable resolution for your girl.

Yes she has had blood tests, thyroid function was my first thought, and we had the tests done before seeing the behaviourist, just to make sure it was nothing medical and I do give her EPO already.

And you're sure there's no physical discomfort?  DOgs can hide it very well - after all, it took me almost 6 months to realise something was amiss with Soli!

Nikita, if you saw her throwing herself about and playing like a maniac with the other dogs, I certainly don't think she's in any discomfort. I may take her to the vets again regarding the thyroid tests as I know they are notoriously difficult to diagnose correctly, but she did have 2 sets done about 9 months ago as the first was inconclusive.

I had a Dobe bitch just like yours. She was a real teddy bear at home, where it was a safe enviroment for her and a monster out. She didn't like strangers or other dogs too. She was suffering from fear aggression and I believe now that it was her eyes and blindness that caused it as she could only see shapes and movement, but couldn't see what they were and felt threatened. She wasn't diagnosed with an eye condition, though she had the behaivourist and thyroid testing. It's only after the event that I put to and two together and came up with my own ideas(like you do).
Do what I should of, and get a good eye test done. Dobes do suffer congenital blindness and it's very often missed, even by good breeders.

Soli was exactly the same, no word of a lie - more so now she's had the chiropractic treatment.  Before I would take her up the park, wrestle her to the playing field there and let her off and she'd tear about faster than a lot of dogs I've seen.  If another dog came into view on any walk and I wasn't quick enough, she'd run even faster to charge at them barking.  At home she'd do laps of the garden chasing Opi, and she progressed very well in agility in the 4 months I've been training her.  And all the time she had discomfort in that hip - the one and only thing that tipped me off was one night at home.  She's had resource guarding issues since she came home, and has nearly bitten me a few times; this time, she was dozing on the floor, propped herself up to look at me and when I went to stroke her side - slowly, knowing what she was like - she went for me.  And she wasn't in a spot she normally guards - that was the tip off.  Took her to the vet and the rest I've talked about.

Some dogs really do hide it very well - if you'd seen her then, and now, you'd be forgiven for thinking she was in perfect physical shape all along, and not a twinge in sight!

Oh, incidentally regarding the thyroid - if you haven't already, look into getting a sample sent to Dr. Jean Dodds in the US (google!).  It isn't cheap - I had a sample for Remy sent in spring and it cost me about £110-120 (can't remember exactly) - but she is just about the best there is, she will only do a full 8-factor panel and she's an expert in intepreting the results as well.  I sent his sample to her because he'd had two inconclusive tests (both sub-standard, one I now know is basically pointless for dogs - that was a TSH stim test) but was still showing quite a few symptoms.

Thanks Spiritulist and Nikita. At the next Vet visit I'll mention what you've said and see what response I get. I have been thinking about getting the thyroid testing done by Jean Dodds.