Hi All

I'm hoping some of you can give me some good tales of success.  The CKCS that I adopted from a rescue centre two weeks ago is three years old and after xrays at the vets yesterday they confirmed he has the following health problems:-

Heart Murmur Grade 3-4 - but no signs of heart failure yet.
Severe Hip Dysplasia
Severe Arthritis in Hips.

The have prescribed the following:-

Fortekor - for the heart murmur and prevention of heart failure
Cartrophen for the arthritis
Cosequin for the arthritis
Rimadyl for pain relief

He believes that Bobby will need all of these drugs for life now - with a possibility that the pain killers will get to every other day rather than every day.

Have any of you had dogs on these drugs and had success and an improvement in the quality of life for your dog?  Bobby is severely overweight - he now weighs 17.9kg (started in rescue over 19kg) and the vet says he needs to get to about 12kg.

thanks for your comments

Maxine

I am sure you will get more specific responses soon but I would say when you have adjusted the weight problem you should see an improvement in the joint problems and possibly less reliance on heart medication too when the heart will have about 50% less work to do!  Are the rescue helping you with the costs?

The rescue didnt know of any of this - it was only when I took him to register with my vets and as soon as he touched his hips the yelping started so then we booked him in for x rays.

I have told the rescue centre now and they are going back to their vets to check what was recorded when they examined him and why this wasnt picked up and will contact me in about a weeks time and offered some assistance with the vets bill I had yesterday.

I would love to be able to say to them dont worry but I have had a big outlay what with the adoption fee as well all in two weeks - so I may accept their offer of help this time.

Bobby has been such a good happy boy though considering he must have been in considerable pain and discomfort... poor little fella, I also have him on strict prescription diet food so that we can monitor the weight losss...

Maxine

>so I may accept their offer of help this time.

I definately would :)  They are under the same obligation to sell a healthy animal as anyone else.  Do you have him under a foster or adoption arrangement under which he remains theirs ie a right to come and inspect your ongoing care, take him away if they don't like it etc?  In which case the other side of this coin is they should be responsible for ongoing bills for a condition he was sold with.

I would pay the extra to have th x-rays submitted for scoring as many GP vets are not good at assessing hip status, though I am sure that if he thinks the problem severe there is HD there.

As others have said the joint probl;ems will improve greatly one he has got to his correct or even slightly lower weight.

Good muscle tone will make a huge difference.

In my breed a dog who fell from a second storey dislocated his hip and it kept coming back out(elderly dog).  In the end he had his hip socket cut off, and after he recovered he was fit and sound with just muscle holding things in place.

This is sometimes the option used when arthritis due to the HD causes pain.

Again the heart murmur may not get worse, especially if you get the weight down.

Good luck.

If he has a grade 3/4 heart murmur I'm surprised that your vet hasn't perscribed Vetmedin for him as this is a drug developed in germany especially for dogs with heart murmurs/congestive heart failure, my eldest Cavalier is on Fortekor, Vetmedin & Frusamide all three help the blood flow & also get fluid out of his system

Getting his weight down will help & a less stressful way than walking etc is swimming. 12 kgs is a bit heavy for a Cavalier unless is a bigger than average dog

Unless your vet does a lot of hip score x rays I would have them scored, I'm lucky the vet who does my hip xrays is extremely experienced at reading the plates more so than my normal vets

Vetmedin is jolly expensive.  I think trying without as a first line and waiting to see what the weight loss can achieve seems reasonable to me.

Maybe he is going with the fortekor because there is no heart failure yet the report says "The chest xrays show a normal heart size and no fluid on the chest suggesting that he is not yet in heart failure".

He does seem to be slightly tall in comparison to some cavs I have seen.

I have to go back to see the vet next week for the next Cartrophen injection so I'll ask him about hip scoring - but if it is costly to find out it might have to wait a couple of weeks.  After £105 to adopt and £473 at vets last night I need another pay day......

I'm pleased to say though that he was out and running around over the park this morning - he was extremely dopey last night after the xrays and the dental and I was quite worried about him - but he seems to treat off lead time at the park like the biggest treat he could have...

I'm going to check the wording on the adoption agreement Isabel - I'll post back,


Maxine

I didnt realise it was so expensive to adopt dogs.. wow I would certainly be going back to them for this dogs vets fees, regardless of what their vet said these conditions had to be present when they had him. Its not like its something you have done to make him ill.

I would certainly be going back to them for this dogs vets fees, regardless of what their vet said these conditions had to be present when they had him.

Depends on what the rescue's policy is, though. We adopted a Labrador from the council stray kennels last weekend and in the paperwork we got it says they don't guarantee the dog is healthy, and if she should get ill, they will pay nothing under any circumstances, including not refunding the money (£100) if she should die soon after having been adopted. However she did have Pet Plan's 6 week  insurance.

She's just come into season -guess we should count ourselves lucky she wasn't pregnant! :rolleyes:

I think in theory that policy holds, M., in that if you get a rescue you do take on a bit of a wild card. However, you'd expect a rescue to have been able to assess serious health problems - particularly heart problems in a CKCS, as they're expected - and to at least be able to warn potential adopters of the impact to their lives and finances.

I would have thought that in most cases passing on a dog like the one in question without any warning would result in them having it back on their doorsteps PDQ - surely not the right approach for dogs that have probably been traumatised by the need for rescue in the first place.

LOL, sorry, sounds like I'm preaching at you there, rather than just replying to your post!

M.

Oh I agree, I just wanted to point out that different rescues work differently. We ourselves went to the council stray kennels when my MIL wanted a dog, because we KNEW that we cannot go to the RSPCA, Dogs Trust etc as MIL lives WITH us, and even though she has her own granny flat and keeps her dog there, she has no separate entrance, and so at this address there were already 9 dogs -and rescues like that would not home another to us because of this. Also MIL is disabled so WE walk the dog, which technically gives us another one of our own, even though she does the feeding, general care, and pays the bills. :) The council kennels don't do home checks, they don't ask questions, they don't do anything but house strays collected by the police for the required 7 days, then if no owner has appeared they sell them to anyone who wants them -or put them down if they are short of space. :( I don't know how common it is with such places, but this one here caters for all strays from 2 or 3 towns and has a lot of dogs. In our case I think we knew enough to be able to pick a good dog temperament wise etc (she is brilliant!) and knew roughly what to expect, but it makes you wonder about other people -these dogs could end up anywhere and novice owners could easily end up with problems as like I said this place will take no responsibility at all for health problems.

To be honest though I woulnd't expect rescues to tske responsibibility for health.  The odds are high that the rescues are not from the best start in life or have been dumped.  A bit hard to expect them to pay ongoing bills etc.  On the other hand there woudl be an outcry if they put them down to save money to recue only the healthy ones we can't have it both ways.

I don't necessarily think they should take responsibility for health - although on the flip side some dogs would never get homes if they didn't assist. I do think they should be able to give people a moderately accurate assessment of significant current problems.

Our rescue runs a 'golden oldies' scheme, where people make regular donations to support the old or infirm - a good idea, I think, and one I financially support.

M.

I would not ordinarily.  I am sure rescues have enough to spend their money on.  But in this instance I do think, considering the breed, it is remarkable that their vet, as they claim, was not quite focused enough to spot something amiss just 3 weeks before.  It is a shame that this little dog is already in the hands of someone caring and attached as I think it would have been better not to have allowed that to happen.

Hi Lily Mc

I have had an email from the rescue who are curious as to why their vet didnt pick this up as I was which is why I let them know.

I have no intention of sending him back to rescue, I agree when you take a rescue dog you never really know the history and what might come up.  My first dog was a rescue dog and although I have no health issues with him I have behaviour issues - but with both of them one with behaviour issues one with medical issues - I know that with me both of them will have a better life than they have had so far.  I know I will do everything that is needed I cant be sure that anybody else would do the same - I made sure OH agreed with me and he does so thats it he's here for the duration.

He hasnt even eaten all of his breakfast today so he must still be feeling under the weather a bit from the anaesthetic yesterday - food is usually gone in seconds......

Maxine

Didn't mean in any way that you would send him back Maxine - just that some people would either because they would literally have no choice financially (food vs. vet's bills before they've been able to set up an insurance plan), and some because it would just be too much trouble. Just seems a funny way for a rescue to go about things.

M.

I agree with you Lily Mc - but I am trying to stay open minded and give the benefit of the doubt at the moment.  There is a particular rescue centre that I have been reading about recently on another forum that turned out not to be quite what it seemed - I'm sure this isnt the case here but once you read these stories you cant help but have little niggley doubts.  Like you say it is lucky that we will be able to afford the meds I dread to think what would have happened if he had gone elsewhere and they couldnt commit to the financial aspect of his care.

Maxine

"She's just come into season -guess we should count ourselves lucky she wasn't pregnant!  "

Yes tyou should as I know someoen who wasn't allowed to adopt the bitdch ntil her season was over and then found she was pregnant.  They took the sensible course and reared only two of the 9 resulting pups on this poor youngster who had spent months in kennels and was under a year old.

Rescues incur quite high costs, to save the dogs from the pound is usally £25.  Then to get them  checked over at the vets, another £25, then their upkeep while at the rescue, and I know some resuces vaccinate and neuter where/when necessary, so the cost is really a kind of donation I would imagine rather than a fee for a dog. 

I don't know for sure about all rescues, but from what I do know of the rescue I help with, I know they don't make money and certainly quite a few of the volunteers pay out of their own pockets.

Having said that, I know if a dog was ill that had been adopted from the rescue I help, again, we would normally find the money from somewhere to help with treatment.

Hips scoring is around £30 to the BVA, the most expensice part if the Vets fees.

Last time I ahd one scored I paid the VEt £170 and only £30 of it was for the scoring by the BVA panel.

So if he has taken correct x-rays with confirmation of the pets ID on the plates then your only talking about a small fee for scoring.

Just looked up the Hips cheme here http://www.bva.co.uk/public/chs/hip_scheme.asp and the current fee is £32.15 including VAT.

Well just looking at the pictures in that link you put there Brainless I think my vet was right and it is severe. He showed me the x rays and there were no smooth edges on either side ball or socket - really jagged and mis-shaped.  I will still mention hip scoring to him when we go back next week though.

Poor thing - hopefully I will find some reviews on the drugs he has prescribed to see what people think of them.

thanks everyone

Maxine 

I have an 11 year old Golden with severe HD (score 96) and I was able to take him off Rimadyl years ago after he'd been on Glucosamine with Chondroitin for a few weeks. I buy it for humans, it's literally at least ten times cheaper than the what vets sell. Without it he's in pain and his hindlegs don't work at all, with it he can go for long walks. Takes about 6 weeks before it has an effect. You should be able to keep costs down that way. And like everyone else I'm sure things will improve once the weight is gone. :)

Thanks for that can I buy Glucosamine with Chondroitin in shops like Holland and Barret ?

Boots, Holland and Barrett - anywhere like that.

Often cheaper online tho' - see http://www.zipvit.co.uk/#30 or https://www.healthspan.co.uk/ and others - look for the special offers from time to time :) :)

Daisy

And http://www.vitaminsdirect.co.uk is where I buy from.

:) Missed that one - I have some bookmarked under 'Shopping' and some under 'Dogs' - need to do some re-organisation :D :D :D

Daisy

Glucosamine and Chondroitin, by itself, just didn't work for Bramble :( He was on it for at least six months before we had to resort to Rimadyl. However, he has been on Rimadyl since last September and now we seldom need to give him any (he is still on the Glucosamine etc and Fish Oils) - so improvements can take a while. Bramble has now gone back to leaping onto our (high) bed in the mornings and, just now, he leapt up the stairs, two at a time (hasn't done that for 18 months) :) :) He leaps and runs as he used to and the only clue to his problem now is that he still sits crookedly :) :) Bramble is about 10 and his arthritis started after a collision with another dog whilst running :rolleyes:

Daisy

Goldmali and Daisy - have neither of you used Cosequin or Cartrophen?

No - I was already using Glucosamine and Chondroitin when I resorted to the vet - he recommends Glucosamine etc :)

Daisy

Too expensive when the cheap C&G does the same job -at least for my dog. :) My vet initially prescribed Rimadyl and Synoquin, agreed we could substitute the Synoquin for the cheaper C&G (by law vets have to prescribe the animal version of any drug these days, before they could prescribe the cheaper human version) and eventually I took him off the Rimadyl and he's not needed it. Had a dog years ago that was on Catrophen but he had back problems.

thank you for all your posts - I shall check out all those sites and order some glucosamine tonight, I've also found a site for the other drugs www.petmeds.co.uk and they are cheaper than the vet charges I just hope that if I get them online I dont lose the support of the vet.....

We shall be taking him away to the caravan again this weekend and we'll get a lifejacket on him and see if he takes to the water....

thanks for your help and support

Maxine and Bobby (fast becoming known as Blobby ....) 

I've used Cartophen when New Zealand Green Lip was no longer effect and Glucosamine with Chondroitin upset her digestion and found it very effective.

I agree with the others about cosequin, it is SO expensive, and Glucosamine and chondroitin are much the same thing. My last GSD was on RImady, but you have to watch out for kidney probs with it. Metacam can work well, but again doesn't suit all dogs. In respect of the hip scoring, I really don't see any point to it at all, other than an outlay that you really don't need right now. How the dog feels and acts and the amount of pain/mobility they are experiencing bears no relation at all to the score. Hip abnormality and associated arthritic changes are very evident on x-ray so any vet can detect that, and that's all you really need to know you need to treat it. In really severe cases where medication doesn't help there are surgical options and bearing in mind the amount you will rack up over the coming months/years, although initial outlay is high, you then dispense with the need for medication. If I were you I would rather spend extra money getting an orthopaedic surgeon to review the x-rays and offer advice. Hydrotherapy is also extremely beneficial to HD dogs to build the muscle tone supporting the hip joint. I'm not sure how feasible it is, but you could probably do hydrotherapy in your own bath with a little cav! Go to a hydrotherapy pool first and understand why and what you are doing, then maybe do it at home. You can buy the life jackets and just hold the dog in place to swim. Just an idea
Kat

Certainly from a breed statistical point of view having the bad hips submitted may encourage more breeders in this breed to hip score as very few do at present.

For most breeds I'd agree in a nano second. For cavaliers........ say it was found certain dogs had HD, certain lines. Say those dogs were clear of SM and developed MVD late in life......... then what? This is a breed with two such incredibly major problems that really, truthfully, if all dogs had to test negative for everything and have low hip scores as well, the breed would cease to exist. I have no answer, I don't think there IS one, no ideal solution, but at the moment SM and MVD is far more important for breeders to try to concentrate on without adding another problem to the mixture. It's already a big possibility that the incidence of SM increased a lot when breeders tried to select dogs that didn't develop MVD so early. At this moment in time, HD is by far the lesser evil here.

Good point Marianne.  I also think it is a tad unlikely that the OP has got the necessary papers for the scoring to be any use for the breed data :)

It doesn't seem that papers are needed for the scoring though as they score things like American Bulldogs and labrador crosses.  The OP has paid the major amount in having x-rays done already so may as well have a proper result.  It may also tell ehr how likely the dogs condition is to worsen adn effect treatment options to know how severe it is, as that really is a specialist diagnosis.

But if the pedigree of the dog is unknown or cannot be linked to relatives in the records what use is that data.  I don't think this dog will be used for breeding himself :) 
The scoring panel will not offer prognosis will they?  A specialist opinion might be useful but most vets get lots of experience in arthritic conditions which is how this case is likely to be treated.  I can't see replacement for instance being an option with the current heart situation.  I think the OP has considerable ongoing expences facing him and he is doing a fine thing taking on this little dog so I do feel additional expense ought to be avoided where sensibly possible.

It will at least give a heads up to those with their heads in the sand.

But you still wouldn't use a horrendously dysplastic dog, you would just be a little less strict in this area until there were sufficient dogs without the other health issues and better hips.

No point ending up with cavaliers with SHM and hearts perfect and they are all crippled with HD.  You still need to know what you have. The breeding decisons are then up to you to decide on priorities, no point just pretending it doesn't matter, because there are other problems.

This is one reason I don't beleive in cut and dried upper figures (pass or fail) with hips, as there can be valid reasons to use a slightly high scoring dog or bitch.

I agree with Brainless.  Unless all hip x-rays are submitted for scoring, the
mean score for each breed will never be a true reflection of the breed's actual
hip status.  In certain breeds, like my own, people bury their heads in the sand
and state they do not have a problem with hips and elbows, but are not prepared
to have their dogs x-rayed and scored.  Some will have the x-rays done, but not
scored if they are not good, as they do not want the results publishing in the BRS. 

We have used "Devils Claw" with good results on a bitch with severe HD and ED.

<It may also tell ehr how likely the dogs condition is to worsen adn effect treatment options to know how severe it is, as that really is a specialist diagnosis>.

No a hip score won't forecast how the condition will progress, it simply doesn't work that way. People get hung up on numbers with hip scoring and it has no bearing whatsoever on the clinical signs. A specialist diagnosis from an orthopaedic surgeon however would be a real benefit in my view, that just might give a forecast of how the condition may progress and a full explanation of treatment options now and in the future.
Kat

No a hip score won't forecast how the condition will progress, it simply doesn't work that way. People get hung up on numbers with hip scoring and it has no bearing whatsoever on the clinical signs

That's very true.  Some dogs with severe HD will never show symptoms at all - some with mild HD will show symptoms.  It seems to be very much down to the individual dog.

Hi

Could any of you explain what 'devils claw' is please?

All in all we have had a good weekend with Bobby and I can see already that the pain killers have made a difference - instead of tagging behind the whole time on his walks he was sprinting up the front.  He has really enjoyed his weekend and had a paddle in the sea but we didnt get him swimming.

I'm going to try and get him to a hydrotherapy centre to see whats done and then apparently there is a swimming pool for dogs not too far from me that is used for the greyhounds in training but it is open to others - so I'm sure that would be a cheaper option once I know what I'm doing..... I was going to take him to obedience and agility but i think he would benefit far more from swimming...

Maxine

Good to hear he's improving, I'm sure getting that weight off will help too. I have 2 Cavs and I hate seeing the hugely overweight ones around here! :rolleyes:

Hi

Just thought I would give you the update.  Bobbys weight is down to 17.2kg so he is doing well, he is definitely benefiting from the medication - is faster and more energetic, is even putting his weight on his back legs - standing on the back legs with his front legs up on the bed.  Manages to walk for no problem off lead for an hour to an hour and a half - cant do any more than that but I think that is good going.

The rescue centre have said that if they realised he was so bad they wouldnt have put him out for adoption only for long term foster and would have found a sponsor. They did offer to take him back but there is no way I would have let that happen.  They have also said their vet is going to speak to mine and they will send a contribution.

I suppose i just wanted to make a point with them really that they hadnt been careful enough because if they had sent him to a family that couldnt afford the medication then he would have been on his way again.

Maxine

Excellent news regarding his weight you will see him improve as it continues to go down keep us updated :-D

Good to hear he's improving - and great that the centre are being so responsible! Keep us posted. Front legs on the bed eh - a few more kilos off and he'll be up there with his head on the pillow like my Henry! :-)