I'm usually posting about how brilliant and wonderful my Toby is. Well, sad to say, his halo has slipped.!!
Tonight he stole a piece of southern fried chicken from my son's room and he really growled aggressively at my son when he went to take it from him. Toby then took it outside and I calmly (heart pounding) went and told him to drop it while trying to bribe him with a dog biscuit. After about 30 seconds he did drop it and moved away from it but growled and bore his teeth at me while refusing the dog biscuit. I then managed to get between Toby and the chicken, he took the biscuit and I picked up the chicken. Since then he's kept away and looks sheepish as if he knows he's done wrong. While I'm typing this, he's sat beside me as if he's trying to sook in but I've just ignored him.
He's never, ever done anything like that before. He's never stolen food and I've always been able to take bones etc of him. Not that I'd often do it but I just feel I should be able to if I wanted. So I really don't know how I should've tackled tonight's episode and I know he ended up getting a biscuit but I didn't want him thinking he can start stealing food and be aggressive.
I feel dreadful because it's my fault he got the chicken in the first place since i left my son's bedroom door open. My son's in the army so isn't here very often and only arrived today. Toby does really love Simon and vice versa but I keep wondering if it's something to do with Simon trying to take the chicken away from Toby first of all. Toby adores Simon but Simon's firmer with him than me and doesn't feed him titbits etc.
Sorry to go on but I'm trying to give as much info as possible. Hope someone can give me advice on how to try and make sure it doesn't happen again and how to deal with it if it does. Thanks, Dot

Dot, don't think it is personal toward your son, I have noticed in all the dogs I've owned, the stolen food seems special to them, (like I hunted for it & caught it so it's mine). The fact that you did not respond to the growling and that he did give it up in the end, was the right thing. As long as he knows that you are not happy with his behaviour (more the growl not the stealing) I would worry no more and forget the incedent. It is difficult I know but if you don't let him get away with anything you will win in the end. Dont think giving a biscuit was wrong you were saying no I want the chicken but if you are good and let me have it you can have the biscuit you could have even done a recal and sit and then hand fed some of the chicken making the dog work for each piece. Worry not there wont be may dog owners who have not been through the same thing, but I bet there are those who would have handled it in a different way, but you won and to me that is the important bit. Ja:)kie

Yep Jackie, I think we have all been through that at some time, the main thing is Dot, that you got it in the end. I always feel that I should be able to take anythiing from my dogs, mainly for their safety, even now one will growl but always gives things up to me. Like you I don't make a habit of taking things but like to know that I can. Ingrid

I think you did the right thing & infact think you did well to get the bit of chicken atall.....if it had been one of mine they would have bolted the whole thing without swallowing, just at the sight of me coming towards them!!

Toby sees himself as pack leader and you and the rest of the family as lower rank members of his pack. There will be other areas of his behaviour which show leader characteristics but as these are not a problem to you you probability don’t notice them or recognise them and they are probably not disruptive.
As pack leader his taking the chicken is quite normal. Pack leaders rule benignly and it is only when something stimulates him to assert his leadership that his defined rank shows itself in the form of threats.
When any challenge to his rank is made he (or any Alpha dog) threaten or punish any challenge to the/his leadership role, at these points in pack interaction pack leaders rule by fear. Your trying to take his bone away was a challenge to his perceived rank.
Taking the chicken was a reward, when Dot offered him a biscuit that was another reward, in other words what you describe as unwanted behaviour has been reinforced by rewarding it, he growled, and was rewarded for that by being offered a buiscut why should he stop it in future?
Did you go to training classes? Were they educational as well as showing methods of training? Were they reward only classes? How long did they last?

Can you explain how taking the chicken from him was a reward to him or do I mis-understand what you are saying - the biscuit yes, you are giving a reward for giving up the chicken - but for it to be a reward to retreve something that could have harmed the dog I don't understand. And also how without seeing the situation in the household can you say the dog considers himself 'Alfa' he saw a piece of chicken laying around and took it, not met a dog yet that would not have done the same thing, they are all opportunists. He did drop it when told, bet mine wouldn't a sock 'yes' chicken 'no' that would be swallowed pronto, leaving me to worry for the next 48 hours. Jackie

The chicken wasn’t ‘taken’ from him.
When he took the chicken he was ‘rewarding’ himself, all animal behaviour is governed by what the animal perceives or experiences as the ‘greater’ reward.
Dot tried offering him another reward, a biscuit, that is rewarding unwanted behaviour and reinforcing unwanted behaviour, he growled and was offered a buiscut, he was rewarded for growling.
Sorry, but I am not going into more detailed analysis than that.
As far as the dog seeing himself as an Alpha goes;
The part of the behaviour described, namely, ‘not giving up the chicken’ (taking it was not Alpha behaviour unless he had been trained not to pick up any food in the house) was behaviour only a dog perceiving himself as top rank would display.
You must have misunderstood, I did not say the act of taking the chicken was Alpha behaviour, it was at the point of challenging a command ‘Drop it’ he started to display rank leader characteristics.
Dogs which accept their rank as lower do not challenge the top rank dog.

Doogdog,
thanks for your replies.
Toby has always acted as if he does perceive me as "Alpha" which I think is why he did indeed give up the chicken to me. (A whole piece of Southern Fried Chicken at that.Yum,yum!!)
What I did wonder was if he thought he was higher up the pecking order than Simon but having thought about it I don't think he does because Simon does treat him as if he's the "Alpha male" and not Toby.
We do go to an intermediate/advanced Obedience training class and although you can use rewards initially they can't be used during tests. Why I did try to use a biscuit (and if you notice he initially refused this even after giving up the chicken) was that TT's have a very independent streak and I was trying to tell him that he can't take what he wants but can have what I want to give him.
Thanks for your help.
Dot

Hi Dot

naughty Toby:D Like has been said. I wouldn't worry too much about this. As your son is not around that much and Toby had an opportunity - he took advantage of it and challenged your son and then you. I am amazed you got the chicken back at all. If either of my boys gets something they shouldn't - and it's usually Jasper very rarely Buddy, he locks his jaws onto it. I have to really force his jaws open but I always win and there is no growling. If he ever ever growls at me - which is very very rare - he gets put straight outside.

It can be a shock when they act so out of character. The chicken was a particularly high prize and I bet he couldn't believe his luck. You have learned something here that if Toby is able to steal a piece of food - it changes his character - so don't give him the opportunity again. If he does manage to steal anymore, rather than develop a conflict that could turn nasty, ignore it. My folks had a Cairn that changed if she got a bone, the answer - she never got a bone. Don't beat yourself up over it - these things happen. You won the day which is a major point:)

hth

Pam n the boys

Ps - hope all is well xx

Thanks Pam,
I think I was surprised at how he reacted but it shows he's now a "totally normal" dog. (He had been so mistreated before I got him that it took a long time to get him to trust humans and he'd run from challenges).
So in a strange way, I should be quite pleased :D :D
I've been able to take bones or anything away from him but that's different since I gave him them to begin with. I'll just need to be sure he doesn't get the chance to steal again.
Thanks for the PS. Dad got another 2 pints of blood on Thurs/Fri so we'll see if that helps. He gets a couple of pints every 3 weeks now and I think his voice sounds a bit stronger this time. Hope things are alright at your end just now.
Dot

Hi Dot,
I'm glad that things worked out ok. Don't feel bad. This incident of "dog stealing chicken" from empty room wasn't directed at your son or you. It's more of the "no one claims it, I hunted and found it, it's mine" thing ;) :D Consider working with your dog on the drop it/leave it command since this will likely happen in some form again someday ;) :D

Seriously, my girls are well trained to ignore food on my plate. I sit on the floor all of the time in front of the telly eating dinner. They go to their beds pretty much automatically. I can depart, tell them to "leave it" and they're fine. As long as I come back within 20 minutes or so. After that, they probably figure it out that I've had my fill and what's left is for them. :Rolleyes:

Occasionally, one will find food in a bin (Samma usually) or outside and I need to take it away. I use the "drop it" command. If it's a particularly juicy item, yes, I've had to pry it away from her mouth. She'll rumble and get smacked for it though. I understand that she wants to keep what I've discarded. But it is not my wish for her to have it. :)

Yes, I usually dole out a reward if she just "drops it". I"m alpha and it's my whim to give her an alternate food source. I giveth and I taketh away ;) I also would rather her come to me when I call, drop it, and know some type of good thing will come to her. This is instead of always "taking" away her fun and causing her to avoid me at all costs. Sure she likes praise, but it is just not as important as food to her :D Independent little cuss :P

This might be considered "wrong" by those who believe that ALL dogs think and act as if they are packs of wild dogs, but I've had Samma for 9 years. Treating her as if she thinks the same as Chienne is a big mistake....and we've learned :)
toodles

Thanks all for the replies,
I don't feel so bad now but Jackie H I'm afraid I will need to worry for a couple of days because there was a couple of bones on the plate too but he ate them first!! See, I suppose he thought, well if I eat the bones and the good stuffs still there, it must be for me really ;) ;) :D :D
See he's not that clever, leaving the good stuff till last!!
I'm just watching him. He has "coughed" as if clearing his throat but only a couple of times and just for a few seconds. He also looked as if he'd eat when he was watching me having breakfast so I'll see if he's alright when I feed him later.
Thanks all,
Dot

Did not mean to worry you Dot, you would be very unlucky if it caused a problem, I stuff mine with boiled rice if I think they have eaten somthing that may cause harm, don't know if it helps, but I feel better. Hark at me who has just got my old boy back from the vets, having eaten large amounts of vet bed & I did not even know he had done it. Silly sod at 13 years, still steals toilet rolls & growls when I retrieve them. Ja:)kie

Dot,
A couple of years ago, Samma, the bin terror, got into Thanksgiving leftovers. (climbed over the windowsill like a cat :rolleyes: ) She ate two fully cooked turkey leg bones + some of the carcass. When I told the vet what had happened, he wasn't too worried because smaller dogs tend to chew the food instead of bite, crunch, and swallow with the sharp bone ends.

But he did suggest that I give her a couple of slices of bread (wheat or white) to help cushion the digestion. I also gave her plain yoghurt (See Philippa, it works in US too ;) ). She didn't have any troubles passing it through. You might want to try this...It can't hurt, at least ;) :D :D
good luck,
toodles

Toodles, world wide good stuff that yogurt lol :D

Thanks, I will try the yoghurt. He'll be happy because he'll see I'm talking to him again since I've not made a fuss of him and he knows he's been in the "doghouse"!!
I didn't want to ignore him too long anyway. Aren't they just like kids? :D :D
Dot

Hi Dot
You did the right thing, and you were lucky to get it from him, mine would have just swallowed it during the *chase*.
I have found that the ONLY time my dogs have not wanted to *give* whatever they have is when they've stolen it! It's like they KNOW they've stolen it and that it was wrong so the best form of defence is attack (metaphorically speaking) or flight.
Nicky

After reading these Posts, I feel I must make an observation. Lots of analysis about why the dog stole, what he was thinking, why he would not give it up, how he perceived the bribe of the biscuit, etc. etc... However, the main cause for concern here should be the fact that he was willing to demonstrate aggression towards the Owner. He should not even consider THINKING of showing aggression!!

I would recommend that you observe your interaction with the dog, and try to be aware of how much control you or the dog actually has!

I cannot believe that he has not indicated his displeasure to you in other ways too. The growl or lip curl are obvious, but watch for the 'cold eye', this is just as bad and unacceptable! Even a dog carrying out a command slowly, is indicating his lack of co-operation, and showing the Owner that he will do as required but in his own time!

If you try to 'avoid' a problem area, you are simply playing 'Russian Roulette', sooner or later the problem will manifest again one way or another. You say that you attend an Advanced Obedience Class, I would therefore recommend you seek advice from your Instructor of ways to help you reinforce your position and regain respect - that is sadly lacking.

Regards,
Denise.

Hi Denise, This isnt meant as an arguement, but from your post is sounds like you are only happy when your dogs are like robots, totally under your command, and not allowed to have any personality. Im glad mine are not like that!! Just meant as an observation.

Trained dogs are free dogs. The only commands a trained dog gets is to keep it safe, with a couple of mins each day training.
Daily reinforcement training is not done as a separate part of a walk, its done during exercise as a part of it.
I asked what kind of training classes the dog was going to, I still don't know but Dot has only mentioned rewards and in the situation she wrote about she could only think to offer a reward for the behaviour.
At a guess based on what is written by Dot, there are no corrections, these classes keep you going forever, they do not teach anyone to train their dog, if Dot is in an intermediate and the dog behaves like this then something is seriously wrong.
If you want to stop the behaviour Dot the only thing you can do is go to a class which is reward based with corrections.
Constant rewards and no corrections might make you feel good but its only training your dog to learn that no matter what it does it gets a reward,
Its also giving you difficulty in recognising your dog is a different species, even animals as intelligent as humans don't learn on a reward only system, except the kids who run havoc through estates, they enjoy it, it is reward behaviour without corrections, the punishments come later when they are 'put down, to jail'.
The kids give very clear signals they have no respect, your dog shows the same disregard for your rank.
A class with corrections in it is all I suggest on here.

I may regret getting into this but let us assume Dot is not perfect which most of us aren't. She saw her dog with something that she felt was dangerous to him, so she used a method which she felt would get the article away from him quickly and easily. I would equate this with a child running towards a road you are going to choose the best method you can think of to stop it and worry about reinforcing road safety later. I for one would shout come and get a sweetie (to child) rather than you better come back right now or you are in trouble. In an ideal world all dogs and kids would behave perfectly all the time but it isn't and they don't. I train with treats toys etc but I will also use my voice to express disapproval immediately followed by reward for compliance. In an emergency situation (everyone will have different definitions of Emergency) you deal with it at the time and work to avoid it happening later. I love my dogs to bits and find them easy to live with but they are dogs and no matter how well trained sometimes do what dogs do even although we may not like it. There is no point in saying the dog should/shouldn't do/have done this or that go on learn from what has happened. I will now head for the shelter to avoid any fall out
Anne

Hello Philippa,

I cannot seriously consider that you assume my dogs are all marching up and down like soldiers or robots, with me shouting orders! That they equally display no personality of their own!

Let me make something (politely) clear, I treat dogs like dogs, not like people dressed as dogs. You cannot relate dog behaviour to human behaviour - first mistake many people make.

Dogs REQUIRE a leader of their Pack, and I am that Leader, (there is no grey area for them). When we train, there is no 'third party' interaction with my dogs, no treats, toys, clickers etc., just me and the dog. Their forward, keeness, concentration and happy response is clearly visible. My dogs are happy and relaxed because they have nothing to prove, leadership decisions are left to me. I am equally consistent (another mistake made by people, i.e. if you ignore an unwanted response on one occasion, why should the dog take you seriously next time)!

Your comment also suggests to me, giving yourself licence to not make the effort or time or observation to improve your dogs behaviour, a way of excusing it by suggesting that I am too strict! This is very similar to Obedience Classes that advertise themselves as 'Pet Training Clubs'. All dogs are 'pets' and loved by their Owners. Obedience is obedience, and good control is part of that requirement. This sounds more like a 'That Will Do Club, and any problems will not be resolved by the Instructor due to lack of knowledge and/or experience'.

- As you previously said, just my observation!

Regards,
Denise.

Think we have all read the text books & most have attended training school but the fact remains that dogs & their owners differ and what suits one will have the opposite effect on another. Theories are fine to start with but we all have to work out what is best for us and our dogs, we expect different amount of obediance from our dogs. Some want unfailling instance obediance from their dog other accept comfortable getting along together in happy confusion. Some have aminable dogs some have b*****ds and you can get both in the same breed. Amongst mine I have one Angel and one little sod and if I did not treat them in a diffent way I would have trouble on my hands instead of a constant battle of will - but I am winning - and no amount of mental or physical force would have got me as far as I have.
So lets make suggestions and let people sort out what is best for them and their dog - there is no right way when it comes to training dogs or kids if it comes to that. Ja:)kie

Hello Jackie,

This is frankly correct. Providing people are happy and content with the relationship with their dog, that is all that matters. A problem is only a problem when the Owner is unhappy or the dog displays unwanted or unsocial behaviour that is difficult for them to manage - hence this 'Behaviour Board'! Our individual opinions, knowledge and experience is then given to the Poster, it is for him/her to decide what they wish to acknowledge and perhaps enquire further....

There is no magic wand to training, effort and commitment are needed. Generally, when a problem presents itself, it is often due to reasons prior to the unwanted behaviour!

Text books suggest certain 'rules' to 'hopefully' help people gain control, i.e. 'walking through doors first', 'making a dog move out of your way', 'feeding a dog after you have eaten' etc... But quite frankly, I wish it could be that 'easy', then everyone would have a well behaved and well adjusted dog! I for one, would not wish to live my life worrying about whose going through the door first, whether I have eaten before the dog etc... Gaining good control and training a dog goes far deeper than this.

Our training methods vary, our knowledge and experience with dogs in different fields vary, our expectations vary, as does our commitment and contentment. Dogs may come in all shapes and sizes, with different characteristics, but a dogs brain is still a dogs brain. However, people vary, and they are the ones who apply the training method of their choice, and decide on the level that they are prepared to work with the dog - the dog's behaviour is reliant on the skills they learn.

When I am training someone, I make no half measures about it, there is no 'that will do' - Neither is it simply a case of the general obedience exercises, I help them to recognise and teach good manners in the home. If folk do not have good control indoors, they have little hope outside!

Kind regards,
Denise.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply to my post and Jackie H, I agree each dog and breed is different. We had 3 Golden Retrievers and one of them would have responded differently to the other two and they were all used to my father's training which was more disciplinarian.(sp) Having observed Toby's behaviour since the incident, I have no doubt that he still sees me as the leader.
I admit I did not like him growling as he has NEVER, EVER done that in the past but he's certainly not the first dog to do that when being made to give up something they want to keep.
To be fair to all animals I think I'd do more than just growl if I had a plate of nice food in front of me and someone tried to take it from me :rolleyes: ;) ;)
Thinking about it, many years ago, our Pyrenean Mountain Dog once did the same to my mother. It seemed to beat itself up for a while about it and never did it again. I had never seen a dog with the brains to realise it had gone a bit too far before that.
For people who don't know Tibetan Terriers, they are not renowned for obedience and I have been able to do more obedience training with Toby than most. It's mostly heelwork, on and off the lead, recalls, send aways and sit/down stays for 4 minutes both in and out of sight. A good suggestion Sara made was to practise drop/leave it commands which we will do.
Anyway, thanks very much for all the input. Meanwhile I gave him some "live" yoghurt as suggested and he's eaten his dinner fine so I think he's alright.
Dot

Hmm Denise, I take exception that it is your opinion that I do not put in the " effort, time or observation" of my dogs. However, I do not want this board to suffer another ongoing arguementative thread, so I shall say no more, and not discuss the topic further.

I agree 100% with you denise. Dogs are pack animals, and the sooner people understand this the better.
There is no point in me saying what I think as I have said it in previous posts, I have agreed with you before. I just hope the people who dont see what we are saying about the dogs needing a leader dont live to regret it.

Regards Mick

Hi Mick, I dont think for one minute that anybody here disputes that dogs need a leader, it is how they are led that causes threads like these.

hi all
doogdog re you remark
except the kids who run havoc through estates, they enjoy it, it is reward behaviour without corrections, the punishments come later when they are 'put down, to jail'. The kids give very clear signals they have no respect,

maybe you should think why this is. is it the parent or has the goverment made it like this by all the laws that have be put up regardeing what a parent can do. as you said PUNISHMENT comes later when they are put in jail.

lorraine

Yes Lorraine, I am not sure what your point is, did you understand what I was talking about.

I am not sure what you mean 'threads like these'.
In this thread there is quite clearly three sorts of thinking which predominate.

1. People who are reading, learning some asking and who hope to gain from it.

2. Those who enjoy living with, exercising with and communicating with another species on as close level to that other species natural means of communication as can be achieved, including the formation via training of the rank order of the pack animal which that other species requires for its well being and freedom without anxiety or stress of its human leader or itself.

3. Those who cannot accept the other species as anything but a human substitute, project human characteristics into it and attempt to communicate with it and treat it as if it were a human child.
Thereby failing to allow the dog the facilities to learn in a stress free and simple way, with consistency and without confusion demanded by the dogs comparative, severe, limitations.
The result, recurrent behaviour which is a problem to the human and a potential danger at all times to the dog.
In human terms the dog above has learning difficulties and shows symptoms of being ‘retarded’ with all the risks that entails.

Doogdog,
I'm not sure if we've been reading the same thread or not because you seem to have interpreted it in a totally different way to me.
However, I initiated this thread to request advice and I am grateful for all the advice I have received so, since the thread is now evolving in another direction may I take the opportunity to thank everyone and suggest that this thread is now closed since my initial post has been responded to.
Thanks,
Dot

Denise,
In reply to your response to Wixcom, I am definitely NOT against disciplining a dog. They have to know who's boss and nobody could have been more in control of their dogs than my Dad and he ruled them with a rod of iron.

What I do not agree with is people such as Doogdog and Wixcom making INCORRECT assumptions about both myself and my dog since they don't fully read the information given and/or ask for more info. That is how people often make mistakes and I was always told never to assume anything. Assuming things only makes an "A*S out of U and ME".

I do believe that, in person, on a one to one basis with my dog I would learn a lot about training and discipline from yourself. I also feel this would apply if it were Philippa, Jackie H, Sharon, Dizzy, Mari, Eoghania, etc. etc. (Teaching me, that is)

In other words many people on here have different methods of training/ discipline but I'm sure I could learn something from all of them whereas I really doubt if Doogdog and Wixcom have any personal experience of dogs.
Dot

I wish I'd never started this now :( :( :( :(
Dot

tell me if im wrong-but doesnt a certain posters style smack of someone elses !!!!!! personally id of picked up the nearest leash-newspaper or whatever and given it a sharp reminder who was in charge, hopefully as it yelped the chicken would of fallen out of its mouth, which if you where quick you could them retrieve and won the day!!! without giving the little upstart :D a biscuit!!!

He He He :D :D :D
Dot

dot, hes not a retard, just a dog chancing its luck!!! now that you know its in him, then keep on top of it, good luck :D

Dizzy, Kash, Stacey,
Thanks, you've given me a smile :) :) As I said earlier I think I'm more shocked to discover that Toby's totally normal now. :) :) :D :D :D
"Chancers" away to bed and no chicken tonight :D :D I bet he'll not try it again in a hurry. He's been giving the "I'm sorry mum" look all day ;) ;)
Think I'll join that terrible "retard" of mine.
Goodnight.
Dot

dot---no-one else read this please-----tell me you mean youre going to bed too-not that tobys already asleep in your room ????? if he is it might be a good idea to put him out into the kitchen, bathroom coalhouse :D etc---not a good idea, but dont tell anyone else!!

I don't know about pinching chicken but I'm a chicken- cause I couldn't have said it better myself Dizzy- had I had the guts to say it in the first place;)

Stacey x x x

Meet a fellow chicken Stacey! Well said Diz!

sharon, they can tut and scowl away--im boss simple as that, if ever mine where to take a chance, id make dam sure theyd not win and theyd not forget it in a hurry, while at the same time making sure i wasnt going to come off worse-!!! i had an odd going on when i had the rotts, the big boys!!! :D couldnt half make them scream with a jug of water----horses for courses :D, may the best bitch win ---the poor sharpei wouldnt let the thought cross theyre mind, -its more a case of excuse me ,was i in your way there, -sorry, god love them

If I were you Dot I wouldent worry about who started it
if it wasent you it would be someone else
You have every right to ask a question and every right to an answer
Mari
.