Hello, sorry it's me again, back to ask more questions!

My lovely Estrela Mountain Dog, Ludo, is now nearly 5 months old.  She has been allowed off lead for a few weeks now and when there are no distractions, comes back when called very nicely.

Lately I have been trying to trust her a little bit more.  I want her to learn to come back even when there are distractions.

Yesterday we saw a dog on the way to the park, her owner said she was old and not very friendly so it was best to keep Ludo away.  I got her about 75 metres away then let her off lead.  She turned and ran straight for the other dog :rolleyes:  Its owner had to lift her dog off the ground while Ludo stood on the floor putting a paw up on this woman's clothes.  I ran towards her shouting Ludo's name but she resolutely ignored me.   I was very apologetic and quite humiliated.  I've never seen Ludo run so far away from me before.

Then later on, we were walking along, about 50 metres from some people sitting on the grass, when Ludo decided to turn and run over to them, lie down on their blanket and roll over for tummy rubs.  Luckily they didn't mind, but again it could've been disastrous and is definitely not to be encouraged.

Should I put her on lead whenever I see distractions?  It means she won't get much off lead time as she can only walk 25 minutes a day and 15 of that is walking to the park and back.  How do you train a dog to ignore distractions?  The topic doesn't seem to be covered in my dog books.

Thanks in advance,

Alice

hi Alice I'm far from expert and know that good advice is always given on here, so feel that someone will come along and advise accordingly.  However, here is what I do, I have a 2yr old chocolate lab that I consider to be well trained and whenever I see people coming along the river side (I always walk the river bank) I always put him on a lead and continue to walk past them.  They mostly say thank you and most people I must admit do the same to their dogs, in our area it appears to be an unwritten rule as such. Yesterday we took him to Ferry Meadows and he was on lead all the time as there were lots of dogs and distractions and unless I felt that I had 110% control over him I would never take him off the lead.  Amost 5 months is very young as my Cocker is 4 and very rare is he off the lead unless we were in the middle of a 40 acre field and even then he can find water!  bless him!

My lovely Estrela Mountain Dog, Ludo, is now nearly 5 months old.  She has been allowed off lead for a few weeks now and when there are no distractions, comes back when called very nicely.

This is most likely your problem, you waited too long by the sound of it -pups are best allowed off lead from 8 weeks of age (i.e. from the very first walk) as this is the best way to get a reliable recall even WITH distractions. They learn this much better before 12 weeks of age as at a young age they don't want to leave the owner and therefore you can make a point out of being "unreliable" in that you change directions without saying anything, hide, run off etc, so the pup learns from the start to keep its eyes on you -and not the other way around.

May be an idea to practice with a long line now so Ludo learns there is no choice, when called you come every time. :)

Sigh... How come I always find these things out too late?

In any case, Ludo didn't go on any walks at all until she was nearly 12 weeks old (1st injection 8 weeks, second 10 weeks, wait 10 days...) So her first walk was 4 days before she turned 12 weeks, and she was only allowed 15 minutes.

At the time I was certain she would run off if I let her go, so I kept her on lead until she recalled OK at home.  I have not got a long line as she already weighs 25+ kilos and I was advised that it is impossible to keep control of a large dog at the end of a long line.

I will buy one if you think it will help, but I am a bit scared she'll pull me over.  She can already drag me along if she really puts her mind to it, and that's on a 1 metre lead!

>I have not got a long line as she already weighs 25+ kilos and I was advised that it is impossible to keep control of a large dog at the end of a long line.<

I have a long line for mine, lightest weighing 42 kilos - heaviest 53 kilos :) I wouldn't clip it just to the collar though, use a harness. And a glove if its one of those nylon ones.

Here's my two penn'orth for what it's worth - am currently going through similar situation with 9m old rescue lurcher who is everybody's friend and considers himself irresistible (which he darn near is). 

Kept him on long line (5m) for the first week until I established his particular weaknesses (teenage boys with footballs and people sitting on benches). At the same time worked on establishing a relationship with him that meant he became used to doing as I asked (e.g. sit for food, fuss etc.) and following me in controlled situations at home.

Then let him off-lead for short periods away from these distractions but near others (dogs, upright adult people) with frequent call backs and plenty of praise.  Sometimes the lead went back on, sometimes it didn't.  At the same time continued working on the other stuff but now incorporating the 'UH-OH!' command which essentially means 'Leave that alone NOW!'.

This is only our third week and so very much a work in progress but so far, so good (cue for the dog to disappear over the horizon tonight).  The fact that the other two have excellent recall and that I always walk away from the dog when he ignores me - unless the circumstances demand otherwise - I think has helped strengthen his.

However this is always a 'risk analysis' situation and my heart will continue to be, if not in my mouth, at least half way up my throat for a good time yet.  Kobe's strengths are that he is a very attractive dog and just radiates goodwill - his weaknesses are his speed and his belief that to know him is to love him and that everyone should have the chance! 

But every dog is different and no-one knows yours better than you so good luck and remember she's very young so she's got lots of time to learn.   

Just to say, it's up to everyone what they think is the worst risk scenario of course -waiting so long after vaccinations to go out and not get socialised etc during that time, or risking going out earlier. Personally I always take my pups out soon after the first vaccination, usually at 9 weeks. :) A lot of people do and even some vets say that you have to weigh up the pros and cons -mine does.

Although it's easier to train the recall if you get them out at that age, it's not impossible to train one if you didn't.

I had a monumentally ignorant dog, that up to 2-3 months ago though 'Come' meant run off into the distance and if you can, go and cause as much trouble to everyone else you can find....

We basically went back to basis, got a well constructed harness (she weighs 28 kilos) and used a long line and now we need to use neither after tons of practice. She's now nearly 20 months and has an excellent recall - I remember thinking it would never come, but with age and alot of practice (and roast chicken) she's finally there.

I would agree with you Goldmali, especially with my breed.  This has been my problem wth Myka that the safe offlead area is a good 20 minute walk from my house so I wasn't able to let her off young enough.

I advice new puppy owners this when they get a new pup.  Though I do warn them that fredom may have to be restricted when they start to question doing as they are told.  Often this will be at about 5 or 6 months after ahvign been pretty reliable before.  so then it is reinforcemetn with the long line and fredome at the less tempting times.

75 yards isn't very far for a dog.  This is a flock guarding breed that would cover lots of ground.

She is a baby and saying hello to her own kind will always be a huge temptation.

My five month old would do exactly the same, in fact I don't let her off and she is on a Long line at present.

I would only let her off when there are no distrations and use a long line and keep hold of it at other times until she comes without fail (or nealry without fail) and is calmer about other dogs.  To this end she needs to be able to meet as many other dogs as possible under controlled circumstances.  Witha  30 foot line they can play pretty freely.

i let mine of immediately as a pup and his recall was terrible, he was fantastic with no other dogs around but if he caught a whiff of one on the far horizon he was gone, he didnt seem to need me as a pup and was very outgoing,  I used to take him to the football pitch where the other dogs were and let him run over to see them. He had a great time.
But i had  unknowingly taught him that it was ok to run off! at about 6 months when i realised my mistake, i employed a long lead and pocket full of chicken and taught him a good recall, by that time he was beginning to appreciate me a bit more anyway but it took a long time but now he is very good and he doesnt want to go anywhere without me anyway.
with a very friendly outgoing dog this is a challenge but  will come in the end with perseverence.good luck dont despair, she sounds lovely.

Yep that's my breed they are confident enough not to need you

I made the mistake of not letting Abby of lead for ages and no matter what I did her recall was terrible and ended up not being allowed off unless we were in a field that was completely fenced off so she couldnt escape. Lesson learned both the others were let off on their first walk and both have great recall even Piper and she is only 7 mths. Skye is pushing her luck at the moment as she seems to be a teenager so is back to harness and long line until she improves.
Mary

My boy's like that - and he's a dobe, the boys are supposed to be the clingiest!  But from day one he's been an absolute swine, these days he's much better - it only took till he was 4 :rolleyes:

I'm still trying with Jozi and she is 7 1/2.  Now I keep her on a flexi unless I am not in a hurry.  I let her off lead if I think she is not in one of those moods after she has been on the flexi some time watching the others have fun.  I am sure she knows why she isn't let off

If I am not in a tearing hurry I will let her off for a bit and then on one of her returns for a treat put her back on long before I need her back, otherwise the others have to suffer for her naughtiness being back on lead while we await her highness' pleasure.

Being the owner of gordon setters, I can sympathise with you on recalls.  My oldest can't be left off it there is another dog around no matter how long ago he saw it on the walk.  his record so far is going back after a dog he saw 3 fields ago, with me in hot pursuit (havent had such a good workout for a long time)! My youngest one is much better and doesnt go that far from me. 

the joys of gordons!

Jill

Her Royal highness is not motivated by other canines just following her own inclinations, and as she has got older sources of illicit food.

>Her Royal highness is not motivated by other canines just following her own inclinations, and as she has got older sources of illicit food.

I have on exactly like that :rolleyes: I blame the fact that he is 50% spitz :D

Well then mine being all spitz is twice as bad :rolleyes:

I can relate to that!  We've one who comes back, stays just out of reach to see if it's worth it then darts off again!

The German Spitz puppy we tried as we usually do having her off lead from being 9 weeks (like Goldmali we prefer to socialise ours after the 1st vaccination) and at 10 months she is still only being lead walked, having spent far too many occasions trying to find her in the fields, fishing her out of the stream, and clambering up steep banks to retrieve her from whre she's rolling on something revolting!

Spitz independance is a fine thing - providing you of course agree with what your spitz breed thinks!

Oh how I relate.  At least with mine you can usually spot their furry butts easily enough in the undergrowth, but I have had Jozi hide and watch me.

What a reassuring thread!! I walk my 3 dogs, 1 has a fantastic recall, 1 is a bit iffy and 1, well, he is the reason this thread has made me feel better! He is much better than he used to be and I am trying different things. At the moment we have a long line. He has been better since I have used that. I actually feel I have more control with a long line and I feel more relaxed so I think he may have picked up on that. After reading everyone's posts I will not give up, there is hope yet and I feel so much better knowing it is not just me.
jane

Well I have bought a long line and Ludo already has a harness, so I am all set.
The training notes said you should reward the dog for coming back to you, even if you didn't call it, is that correct?

Also what do you do if the dog is on the end of a long line, and it sees another dog and lunges for it?  Do you haul it back in?  Do you just stand there trying to stay upright?  What if the other dog isn't on the lead and comes right up to your dog, is that OK?

Should I stop letting her off the lead completely and walk her on the long line all the time?

Also, I trained her that when she pulls she has to stop and sit.  (The idea being that she learns pulling doesn't get you anywhere so she stops doing it.)  So now if she is pulling, I stop, she stops, and she sits.  I say "good girl, let's go" and she immediately pulls again, I stop, she sits.  We literally take two steps before having to stop again.  Repeat x 1000.  This is particularly bad when we are on the way to the park and she's desperate to get off-lead.

How do I stop this?  I have been keeping her on a very short lead and forcing her to walk beside me very slowly, but it hurts my hands and she is very strong and could theoretically pull me over.  It is doubly difficult if it is raining and/or if my 5 year old is with us, trying to make sure nobody gets run over is a nightmare.

Any suggestions MOST welcome.  I am such an amateur at this.    I've asked at training class and they just say things like, "You're getting ahead of yourself, just concentrate on the basics, she can learn leadwork later" which seems incredibly shortsighted to me. 

Aww.....she's a baby and babies love everyone, so try not to quash it if you can, although I know it's difficult. What everyone has said so far, all makes sense and you could try it all.

Anyway, I guess the only tried and tested advice I can give that may help you, is for you to try to plan ahead and learn to read her brain signals, which will only come with time and patience. Watch her as she moves. Is she lifting her tail and ears in anticipation at the sight of another dog etc? Is she coiling up her body ready to run towards it? Has she forgotten you are there and goes deaf? When this happens, you must be ahead of her with your actions and I find that turning right around and walking away in the other direction works a lot better than screaming their name in panic, which IME only serves to activate the raceing start in them.
Unfortunatly, the best way to learn these tell, tell signals, is to have her off lead, so you'll be between a rock and a hard place for a while. Long lines work that's true, but it takes a lot longer. I'm to lazy to use this technique and to be honest, I can't be bovved.
Harnesses are good for tall dogs too. My Dobe bitch(2 yr) wears one and I just slip my fingers through it when she comes to me for whatever reason, even just to say hello mum. I then walk her for 2 or 3 steps and release her. She's learnt that I'm not going to claw at her neck and clip on the lead which would mean fun over and i'm trapped. My husband has MS and can walk the cycle paths past livestock with her and not just her, but her Whippet brother too(1 yr) and their combined high prey drives, using just this technique so I know that it works, but it is hard work and dammed frustrating to start with, so good luck.

I let my dogs off straight away at 7 weeks as they are still velcro dogs, ie they want to be with you.  However, I never let myself be fooled that they will stay this way, around 6 - 10 months they become Bogoff dog.

Most people do not start to recall train their dogs until it is too late, ie until they have started not coming back.

Can you call your dog away from food in the house?  Away from a toy or a kennel mate?

If you cannot then you do not have sufficient control for outside.  Recall training needs to be relentless and consistent so that your dog becomes the martini dog, it comes any time, any place anywhere, whatever the distraction as nothing is as important as you.

How long this takes depends on the breed.  Some are very handler dependant ie the pastoral breeds, some are much less so ie hounds etc.