Reading another post by Dot brought this question to mind. What do you consider 'show quality' Ja:)kie

I consider a dog to be "show quality" when you can see as a minimum, it has been prepared and presented to the breed standard and shows as many of the requirements of the breed standard as is reasonable. The dog should be recognisable :D asthe breed it's supposed to be easily. It should enjoy showing and allow the judge to examine him/her properly.

It is for this last reason that I have retired my older boy from the ring. Although he has the first elements - ie prepared, presented and well constructed and recognisable, he has increasingly fidgeted and become stressed when the judge goes over him so in my mind - he is not a dog of show quality :(. The interesting thing here though is he most certainly started out that way and that is something that I think many people involved in showing do not do. The state I have seen some Cockers presented in my short time in the breed and show world is unbelievable.

jmho of course

Pam n the boys

Hi Ja:)kie

What I would consider Show Quality is a pup that has been bred from top quality parents, who have either excelled in the Show Ring or have proven themselves with previous offspring. The pup will be totally sound in his/her construction and have that certain spark from when he/she is a baby. He/she will show themselves off or just stand in the right position as if they had been placed in a Show. They will enjoy being handled and made a fuss of and thrive on being in the limelight. On going over the pup there will be no visible flaws - droppy eyes, bad shoulder placings the overall confirmation is excellent and when they strut around they will just carry themselves perfectly.

JMHO

Dessie

Show quality is very hard to define - what type of shows for a start? If a dog wins regularly at exemption shows, does that make it show quality? Years ago we had a very striking Cocker who won many BIS at exemption shows & also some good wins at open shows but I didn't consider her "show quality" as her construction was not good enough to enable her to be placed at Championship Shows. So I guess my definition of "show quality" relates to whether a dog is of high enough quality to be consistently placed (not necessarily win) at all levels of showing including Championship shows. I don't think it's enough to for the dog to be easily recognisable as an example of it's breed - the Cocker I mention above could not have been mistaken for another breed but she was not show quality in my eyes. A show quality dog must have breed type, must have good overall conformation without any really bad faults (even the top show dogs have some faults) & must have the correct temperament for the breed.

I basically agree with everything else said. My perception of "show quality" is a dog that has the breed standard construction with no obvious faults and is prepared by the handler to look it's best. Temperament, movement and coat should all again conform to breed standard. Now there's another question. Who should determine breed standard? ;) ;)
Dot

Thanks for the comments now - at what age do you think Show Quality can first be seen & do you think the breeder is the best person to see this. Ja:)kie

Dot, I don't know who should but at the moment it is the breed clubs and their members with reference to the standard of the country of origin if that applies & I can't think of how else it could be done.

i think as babys--8-12 weeks you can see show potential!! not until second teeth, construction, attitude are all formed can you consider it show quality
i disagree that it HAS to have show winning parent, but it will help with the odds usually---i see a show quality pup as one regardless of breeding that conforms to the standard for its breed, again id have to disagree with someone who said they had a good enough dog to win but it didnt like the judge going over it, so it wasnt show quality, ----id see it still as show quality, but lacking showmanship, --the quality of the dog was still of merit,!!
when i have a litter i watch them from young, theyre shape, movement, carraige etc, usually a couple stand out, -then you can get the ones that are so well put together but dont shout out at you, this is where a good handler can make the difference, by the way the dogs presented, by this i dont mean its coat ,trimming etc, -i mean by the handler projecting the dog, making it stand out,

ive seen not so good dogs doing well because of really good handlers=-also really good dogs not reaching theyre potential because of poor handlers , this is what makes it a sport, youve got to get most of it right :)

You mean people look at the handlers too.........oh crikey

nope. the handler should be as near invisible as possible :D , unless its a facey judge who judges on what they knows winning and not the dogs-then youd be looked at :(

:D A part from the 'facey' ones, though, it does sound like the handler needs to be 'show quality' too, to do it right to bring out the show quality in their dog. I know they can't physically change the dog's construction, but the handler has to do it right to.

a bad handler can stand a dog roached-spread its front out-overstretch the rear etc, making a good dog look wrong---the experienced handlers is the opposite--theyll stretch the roach out-straighten the front etc and can make a poor dog look better :D :D :D -reefer, we all have to start somewhere- you'd have the advantage of been bullied all the way

*Gulp*

I think that if a previous mating has produced top wining pups then a repeat of this will nodoubtedly produce good pups as well !!! As I stated above the parents might have done well in the Show Ring or produced top winning puppies !!

As JaneS has stated Cocker pups are usually picked between 8-9 weeks. I was lucky as my pup was hand picked by my Breeder and they still think he is the pick of the litter.

Show potential can be seen around the 8-9 week stage in Cockers & yes, sometimes the breeder is the best person to see this but not always. Some breeders don't seem to have an "eye" for choosing the best puppies in a litter either because they are inexperienced or sometimes just because they can't see the wood for the trees :-) I know breeders who have been "in the breed" for as long as I have but seem to have the unfailing knack of picking the wrong puppy & consequently have made no progress whatsoever, whereas other people with less experience are able to pick out a good 'un because they have a natural eye for quality & balance.

Jane

youre so very right,--ive known that happen too, its a real help if you can sort out the good and bad in the pups you breed, but what a pain if you cant and keep letting the wrong ones go,

Interesting, I'm suprised that some of you include preperation and handling in your consideration, something I have never thought of, perhaps because it does not figure much in my own breed. It's the thing about this site that I like, it gives insight into other breeds and other peoples thoughts. Please continue. Ja:)kie

well as a total novice my view is :

A show quality dog is one which meets the breed standard as that is what it will be judged to ;). It should be at the top end of the standard in as many areas as possible (except height lol ;) ) and all the "bits" of the standard should go together to make a well formed "whole". The thing that makes it a winner over other equally as good dogs is a "spark" that is not neccesarily definable but is "just there"

As to presentation of coat etc - I have been gobsmacked about the amount of preparation that goes into some breeds (even been surprised by what is done to Goldens) I do wonder though is not the totally natural coat a part of the beauty of the dog ? If non were trimmed up/stripped or whatever (just a wash and a brush) would that be to the detriment of the breed ? I am in awe of the preparation time some spend on their breeds (I wouldn't have the patience) and can understand their experience and skills are to be appreciated but in many ways wonder if all things should be equal - it is the dog that should be judged I thought, not the owners skills.

Re-reading this I think I sound quite confrontational but I'm not meaning to be. I just don't understand why the coats of some are trimmed in the ways they are. I sort of understand about some breeds not moulting and needing handstripping but in general is there a long forgotten (well by me anyway ;) ) reason why they are trimmed/prepared the way they are ?

maybe this should be in another thread (sorry Jackie)

the mind boggles at an un prepared westie--bet theyd look like powder puffs!!! :D and poodles . bless them, theyd look like old english sheepdogs, it doesnt bare thinking about, wouldnt make any difference either way to mine though :)

maybe so Dizzy - but why are those breeds trimmed like they are. Was it to serve a working purpose originally that the type of "hairstyle" was decided or was it for ease of looking after the coat ? Why for example are some breeds whiskers trimmed ?
I'm sure there must be a reason for all of it and I'm eager to learn :D

a lot will have hair taken off to enhance their outline-poodles i believe are trimmed with the bobbles around the joints as they where water dogs and the hair kept around the joints was to protect them ,--i suppose some have genuine reasons and others will be cosmetic----lowchen anyone ?????

I had heard something about that poodle at crufts having the back bobbles to protect the kidneys so that makes sense :)

HI DIzzy,

hopefullly you will remember I am one of the newish westie folk with 2 westies I am showing.. I have to say I am amazed at the importance of the grooming in fact shocked at some of it.

At Darlington I sat and had a coffee with a couple of people one had been into westies for 40 years and the other 30 years and they said themselves they can't believe how the grooming has really became so important.

For me that makes life harder as I have to get the grooming mastered, the showing and handling and all the usuals in getting good dogs..

I actually over heard a judge saying to a stewart something cheeky about the grooming of a dog..NOT at Darlington a while back and I felt so sorry for the exhibitor as the dog was presentable and the person was learning just like me.

I have had to learn from books and watching shows there are no westie folks closer than 40 miles to me..

In fact I have to say that it is so hard trying to balance the time with the grooming and the training.

I got to classes on a Tuesday and sometimes on a Wed if I can make it but I spend at least 2 hours 2 or 3 nights a week grooming them where sometimes I would like to spend some of that time training them..

I have only been at it a year but I have 100% slogged my guts out so far and continue but I will get there.

Onwards and upwards..it's not getting the better of me yet..

Pam

pam, there are many trimmed breeds i love, but i know id not do well with the coats so ive never gone there :). if i where you id tyreat myself to the video that they do on stripping etc, im not sure if its just terriers or even just westies, but its often advertised in the dog press and ive seen it on stalls at shows, every little tip is worth thinking about, and everyone had to start somewhere. -good luck with them :D

SaraW

That is why Jackie and I have Elkhounds, what you see is what you get. An occasional bath (say before a big show, but at least 3 days before, and not more often than about every other month), and a brush and comb!

At least the pet owners dog looks just like it's show brother or sister if it is given a brush once a week or so. It is probably why an owner as has happened this year can enter and compete at their first all breed Champ show, and win the CC, and BOB!

About every other month Brainless - gosh I'm a slut. Only wash mine if they roll in something I cant bear in the house with me. Ja:)kie

I agree totally with Dizzy:) My GSD is excellent, a beautiful dog with some real show quality (and that's from some of the very best people in the breed)..........but she will probably never make it to the big time because I'm new to it all:) I can't stand her as well as others could and I'm just not experienced enough to train her if you know what I mean:) She is my 'learning curve' dog as the breeder puts it:) The mistakes I make with her I'll certainly not make with my second as I'll be more experienced:) Also the best handlers in my breed tend to stick with the *winning* dogs and trying to get one to take your dog when they haven't a clue who you are or whose dog it is- it's a nightmare- a total no go area:) But like I said- give me a few years;)

Stacey x x x

I agree with Jane an all the points about picking a show potential puppy. An additon to the decision which should also be taken into account (if you can) is how others pups of similar breeding mature. For instance, you learn with experience that one particular line "plains out" very early, perhaps 6 weeks (which is the age ours are normally at their prettiest:)), but ends up very typey after teeth change, another line have awful hocks as babes, but strengthen up after 6 months. Experience, and knowledge of your own lines, lets you weigh in these sort of factors, helping the breeder to be the best judge. However, a whole lot of breeders suffer from some degree of kennel blindness, and if they do not have a true picture of their own adult animals, they are unlikely to be able to evaluate therir own pups, consistently sellling those who end up making the grade, and toting complete failures around the shows themselves ;). The question of presentation doesn't come into it when picking a pup at an early age, but I guess could affect a decision on an older pup if the coat has been completely ruined.

I think one of the hardest things about picking a potential show pup is how old do you make your final decision. I absolutely hate having to do it at 8 - 10 weeks, so much changes throughout the next 4 months (and more, of course)If you are buying your 1st (or even 2nd) show pup, the best thing is to pick a breeder whose stock you like, and who you feel you can trust, and then be guided by them. Most good breeders will know their own pups better than the infamous "knowledgeable friend" who seems to latch on to keen novices with offers of unlimited advise.
Gwen

Hi Jackie. Just to be disagreeable :-), in order:

(1) correct and good temperament
(2) genetic health (dog shows are supposed to be held in order to select breeding stock, not just as beauty contests)
(3) typical
(4) sound (esp. regarding correct movement for the breed)
(5) absence of major faults against the breed standard (Nos 1, 3 & 4 partly cover this anyway)
(6) balanced (I've put this low because an atypical dog with poor conformation may still be "balanced" because it's faults balance each other)
(7) absence of minor faults against the breed standard (what is 'major' and 'minor' will vary from breed to breed, but imho, major should largely apply to things that affect function, eg bad shoulders, and minor more to issues like coat, ear/tail carriage etc)
(8) "quality" (if quality is defined as that indefinable something that some dogs have, it should be higher, but Nos 1 and 3-7 more or less cover that sort of 'quality'. By quality I mean that "here's me and who's like me?" attitude, and to some extent showmanship - on the part of the dog, not the owner.

I'm not adding success or otherwise in the show ring at all, because in the numerically small breeds at least, there are many cracking dogs of 'show quality' that have never been entered in a show. Likewise I'm not listing preparation training or handling. A badly handled unprepared dog will not win, but even a totally untrained, fat, unfit, matted and dirty one can be turned into a winner if the dog under the matted coat is good enough.

Suprised you don't all say that the first thing a dog must have to be 'Show Quality' is breed type. To me it would not matter how well constructed, how fit, how well presented and of good temperement & a briliant showman, if they don't look like the breed you've come to judge then to me they do not have show quality for that breed. Someone did mention breed type, sorry can't remember who, but it does not seem to be the most important but perhaps you all take that as read. Ja:)kie