Hi guys

Just a query!  How many of you have a breed that can be born with varying lengths of tails?  How do you tell whether your pups have a total full length of tail?

I'm asking this because now in my breed it seems that two males who seemed to have been born with full tails must of actually been one vertebrae short of a full tail as they've produced pups with short tails with long-tailed bitches and this is not possible unless one of the parents has the short tailed gene!!

I know the boy that I bred that has produced short tailed pups did have quite a chunky tail and it seemed a bit more rounded than pointed but it looked the same length as a full length tail, although three others in the same litter were born with short tails!

Of course my breed has only been in this country for 15 years so we are still learning but it has come as a shock that at least two dogs that we thought were born with full tails actually weren't!!  Now I'm wondering whether Carmen might be one vertebrae short and her brother and sister as two of her sisters were born with bobtails!

Why don't you email Dr Cattanach and ask him, I'm sure he'd be able to give an answer

Can't the dogs carry the gene and pass it on without it actually producing a short tail?  I know very little about genetics and am sure someone will correct me here but I thought if you inherit genes from each parent only one is likely to show but the information can be carried to subsequent generations. 

My parents have blue and green eyes. My brother and I have blue eyes.  My OH has brown eyes and our 3 children have brown eyes but they will have inherited eye colour genes from me.  If they have children with brown eyed partners there is still the possibility that they will have blue eyed children.

I know it's not as simple as that but wondered if the short tail gene could be carried through the generations and only show itself when perhaps the other parent carries the same 'dormant' gene?

Where's Marianne?  She's good at genetics. :)

Must admit Im not sure either but if the Dad of the boy is question was a natural short tail. couldnt he just carry the gene without actually having been born with a shorter tail himself, the father and grandfather of him both had short tails, so the same could be said of his Uncle, and isnt his granny a natural short tail too ?????

Need someone who is good with genetics to answer this really :rolleyes:

Don't quote me on this... but I think it works the same way as sickle cell anaemia genes.  It certainly does with colours in my breed (a brindle can be born from two fawn parents).

Here is a diagram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Autorecessive.svg

Sorry if this isn't helpful at all!

I don't know if the mode of inheritance has been determined for SWD's (?) but in Pembroke Corgi's the bob tail gene is a dominant gene which has modifiers acting upon it that determine the actual length of the tail. It isn't actually an autosomal recessive condition :)

a friend of mine has a boxer and he said that the breeder of his male (long tail) said she can  breed long and short tail boxers as she is no longer able to get hers docked she has manage to breed them with short tails now!! does that sound bizarre or am i just out of touch??!!

kite1st, have a read of all the articles by Dr Bruce Cattanach about the creation of bobtailed boxers.

thanks JG are they a seperate breed type or was it a defect they bred from and now encourage?

No he introduced the trait deliberately, but not many UK breeders have included the lines in thei breeding.  Unless this breeder has those dogs bred by Bruce C in their pedigree they will not get bobtails.

>was it a defect they bred from and now encourage?

You haven't read the articles, have you? ;) The experiment - with the prior consent of the KC - was begun in 1996 when the idea of a docking ban was first mooted as a way to retain the short-tailed appearance but without having to dock. Call it genetic engineering or selective breeding.

I've never know a short tailed dog not to produce at least one or two pups in a litter, there's always definitely at least one, I usually have half and half.

From what I'm led to believe from the person who restarted the breed one parent has to have a shortened tail to produce pups with shortened tails.

It will be quite interesting as another litter was born recently that supposedly had all ful tails, although the mother has a slightly shortened one.  The owner says that three of the litter did have chunkier tails and the vet commented on them, so it will be interesting to see if any of these three ever have or produce a litter if they produce short tailed ones!

Ok, in my breed it has been known for a stub/full tail mating to produce an all tailed litter, however, offspring from that in a tail/tail mating have produced a stub, although a longer stub. 

Different breed, but so far as vallhunds are concerned both in the UK and Sweden they have never managed completely to discover exactly what genetic factors there.  Roughly however

Tail/tail - will produce all tails most of the time, very occasionally you will get a longer stub.
Tail/stub  - mixed litter
Stub/stub - mixed litter - though litter size is on average smaller - possibly due to a lethal tail gene causing reabsorbtion - this however is not proven.

Stub/stub matings are not recommended.

we have every tail length within the gene pool, from a full length tail, via longer stubs, proper bob tails and even inverted tails where the end vertebrae are missing completely.

We've never tried a stub/stub mating!  Would you do a stub to a short tail i.e. not quite full length tail in your breed?

I think I would if the stub was a half tail length (4 inches) or over.

Possibly to a proper bob - but not to an invert.

sorry JG i asked before i read only glanced at the first page before i replied.
do you agree with this kind of breeding?

I'm not a boxer person, but this is only the traditional way of creating 'breeds' (ie, having a specific aim in mind before you start and discarding from the gene pool any that don't forward that aim) or qualities within a breed, so what's not to agree with?