Is this a crock of sh**e so to speak???

I am mortified having found out that a litter Springer Spaniels born on the 5th April (day before cocking ban came in) have been allowed to be docked because they might be worked!!  What dicates these puppies will make working dogs??  Who can tell at such a young age??  Mum and dad are working dogs but what a load of s**te - can some "expert" hand pick a working dog at a day old??? 

For g*ds sake either let people dock or ban it across the board - lets not have these unworkable rules!!!

This has made me cross!!!

Thougts without a docking argument please.

>What dicates these puppies will make working dogs?? 

What dictates the ones that won't make working dogs.  If both parents are successful workers, it seems to me, there is every possibility that any of the litter will too and docking later is not really a proposition.
What I would question about this law is, having recognised that working dogs operate in an environment where docking is valuable to welfare it does not recognise that dogs of the same breed that don't happen to work will not be just as vulnerable in the same environment in a recreational basis.
Please don't blaspheme, you can get your point of view across perfectly well without it. Not everyone likes the use of swearing either and hiding it behind asterisks is not very affective :)

>Thougts without a docking argument please

The request was edited in after Cheryl, but even so not sure how anyone can respond to this without mentioning the 'd*****g' word :)

Jakarta

I don't understand why you are so outraged.  It was clear that there would be exemptions for puppies destined to work. That docking should take place before 5 days old means that the breeder has no choice but to dock the whole litter. Yes, you will get breeders who will try to exploit this exemption for working dogs and use it as a loophole but in the case that you have mentioned it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the breeder has had the litter docked.

As there is a docking ban, then it should be a blanket ban as it is in Scotland. I can't understand why some breeds are still allowed to be so called 'mutilated'. I know some people locally who churn out pups who have changed breeds from dobes to 'working' gundogs so they can continue selling docked pups with not a health test between them :rolleyes:

Why on earth would anyone want to go to the trouble of abandoning one docked breed because of the new docking law and switch to another docked breed?  Totally illogical!

I may have been under an illusion because I thought people who bought working dogs for working bought them from breeders who worked their dogs and have evidence of good working lines :) 

Selling dogs without health tests sounds just like backstreet/puppy farmers to me and it's about time the law clamped down on them anyway regardless of whether they dock or not.

Two things spring to mind - no pun intended

1) Children and 'sensitive' adults read this forum, so please be mindful of this when wording your posts.

2) If you do not intend on working the dog, why book a puppy from a working bred line in the first place. There are plenty of undocked, non working lines out there. This is why we repeatedly suggest that wouldbe owners do their homework BEFORE choosing their breeder. You obviously did not look into this matter properly or you would have known the litter would be docked.

They were born before the docking ban, they could be docked leagally, whats the problem? 

Thats like saying someone can't smoke in a pub the day before the smoking ban comes in

I am mortified having found out that a litter Springer Spaniels born on the 5th April (day before cocking ban came in) have been allowed to be docked because they might be worked!!

Don't see the issue at all. They were docked when it was perfectly legal. I can't see why you are so upset.   

Swear words even when  *** are still swear word ;-)

WERE they though? If they were born the day BEFORE the ban they would surely not have been docked the SAME day they were born, but at 2-3 days of age when they ban HAD come in?

Even after the ban came in it's still perfectly legal to dock dogs or certain breeds that are intended to be worked. All the working strains of spaniels, for example, which would come last in every class if they were shown and are often too hyper to be purely pets, would come under this classification.

Unfortunate that the HPR breeds  have no 'difference' in type between work & show and I think it's going to be this sub group which suffer.    Those who show will have to have tailed dogs but if they wish to run them for a CoM or SGWC may well find their dogs tails bursting open.   

I think not allowing legally docked working dogs to be shown is ludicrous.

yep I agree Brainless ...this just smacks of spitefulness ...why on earth can't legally docked breeds be shown ? it makes no sense at all and is very likely to lead to an even greater split between working and show types.

I have no direct experience of working gundogs - so really don't know how true the reports of tail damage are but if there is a significant risk then docking seems justified in those cases - and I can see no good reason why such dogs should not then be shown - after all the ultimate in any breed should be a dog truly fit for purpose - one that not only looks like it's breed but performs like it too !.

Yvonne

>after all the ultimate in any breed should be a dog truly fit for purpose - one that not only looks like it's breed but performs like it too !.

Spot on!

Afterall a dog isnt a good specimen of it's breed if it cant work to do what it's bred for! And how can one judge a dog on all it's facets if it hasnt proven itself in the field,or whatever work it was bred to do?  Too much emphasis is placed on looks rather than the whole package :(

>this just smacks of spitefulness

I cant really think of a better reason :(

Shame the Kennel club only seem to pay lip service to dual purpose.

They won't recognise the hunting titles on the dog I used on Lexi.

They have him just as Finnish champion (no such title) not Finnish show and Finnish hunting champion.  In Scandinavia they can't get a whiff of a show title unless proven in the hunting field. 

My Friends have imported and adult male that should be a champion and has had BIS, but he hasn't his third hunting test so no title.

Their have been plenty of HPRs WITH tails that compete in various fields including gundog work with no problems.  Tail damage is not inevitable.

Plenty of dogs that are not traditionally docked damage their tails but nobody docks Dalmatians, English Pointers or Great Danes for example.  And THEY whack them in doors!

Just breed for stronger tails.

Their have been plenty of HPRs WITH tails that compete in various fields including gundog work with no problems.

There have been plenty that have got tail damage!  And breeding for stronger tails?  :rolleyes:  So what they can hit them harder?  There's plenty of far more important things to be breeding FOR than a strong tail   Docking has been practised for centuries for a specific purpose in a gundog breed not just a whim for fashion.

Unfortunately it is a whim for Boxers, Dobermanns and other "non working" dogs. Plenty of dogs get damaged in all sorts of other areas too including ears whilst working, we don't crop them!

A tail injury is one that can & probably will reoccur if a dog is working through cover rather than an ear injury.  Some breeders of Munsters used to 'tip' the tails and I can really see the point of this as I've had recurring end of tail damage with my girls including Mia who has a 'strong' tail and I don't officially work mine but they do get plenty of good exercise however they do have lots of action in their tails whilst out in  rough ground which is probably more a cause of tail damage than a weak/strong tail.

My replies are addressing gundog breeds only in particular HPR breeds as I feel it will be detrimental to trying to keep 'one type' within these breeds.  

The big issue with working breeds is not the docking but making sure the right type of home is found for the dogs...  working dogs are not docile like the average pet dog and finding the right home where they will 'work' is more important than the docking issue.  If they are not docked they won't be taken to work and they may run more risk in being given the wrong type of home.   There is more important things for a dog  then giving it a tail .  It is a shame this tail docking ever became a political  issue. Crazy.

It should be possible for working lines to be docked without question.  I wouldn't buy a working dog as a pet, but I have experienced the damage that can occur to a tail when a dog bred for working gets enthusiastic about what it's been bred to do, regardless of whether it is considered to be "working" at the time.

When you have breeds like Springers, Working Cockers, Field Spaniels, B Collies etc, etc, many more breeds which have been specifically bred as working dogs through bloodlines of working dogs and from Working breeders, it is pretty safe to bet that you can make some sort of working dog from any one of these pups, so no it is not difficult for someone interested in a working dog to come and look at a litter or even leave it in the hands of a breeder to choose a new born pup by colour or sex and be pretty sure it will be able to work well and therefore have it docked.

Pet to pet breeders are less likely to produce a good worker, but left in the hands of someone who breeds from recent FT champs then choosing a pup so early for docking is quite easy, so no it is not a crock of sh**e

Sorry for repeating the last sentence, (hands slapped) I replied straight from OP without reading further.

Shame that they couldn't deal with more important matters.  Why the government stuck their nose in I don't know. 

I wonder how many of you anti-dockers still do pups dew claws?  I know from experience that they cry more when this is done than they ever do when their tails are docked properly!

>Shame that they couldn't deal with more important matters.   

Oh, but they have ..... CSA..... Working Tax Credits ...... New NHS computerised system ..... New Junior Doctors' scheme.... New NHS dentists' contracts ..... To be contd.

Yeah right and I work as a medical secretary in a hospital and the workload that we have is a joke.  No wonder half of them are leaving or are having big problems with stress because of all these unobtainable ratings the government has set.