Well worth watching I think BBC2 tonight, 9.00pm.
Two rescue dogs ...in the USA Holly a bloodhound who is so much trouble she had 6 homes in 10 months; and here in the UK Herbie the bearded collie who was dumped for being a serial sheep chaser.
They have 12 weeks to prove they can cut it as Holly a police dog and Herbie a working sheepdog.
Doing what they were bred to do? Worth watching then discussing maybe, as it may well help every breed owner to realise understand why their dog does what he does?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/

There is a video clip of it here.

Looks very interesting :)

Lucy
xx

Saw a clip of this on tv yesterday, bearded collie is being trained by barbara sykes, but it looks like she had her work cut out!! She is keeping him though.

I am looking forward to that had it programmed into sky for over a week

That was great wasn't it :D What a turn around in Herbie!

I enjoyed it also!
Has made me want to read Barbara Sykes' books too.

Loved it and more importantly so did my OH!!!  Such a joy to watch - shocked by the figures of rescue in the US though?  Did OH hear correctly 6 million compared to 100,000 in UK per year?  or did OH mishear that?

And the turn around started to happen so quickly - I think it was day 3 when she first let Herbie off the lead with a small group of sheep. Really pleased that she kept him as well :)

I also really liked the American chap's approach and thought it great that Holly was given the opportunity to work at the job her breed was bred for :)

It also gave me the determination to really crack the loose lead walking with my own dog :)

I did not like that woman -all she ever did was shout at the dog and she was awfully harsh about the ball issue, which could have been turned round into a great training tool i.e. an important reward..... I'd have been overjoyed to find a dog so focused on toys. Quite the opposite to what I had expected, the American guy was much nicer!

Yes me too Marianne, I thought the US trainer was very good indeed and I loved watching the bloodhound :)j

Why was BS  yelling "I'm not going to let you beat me" and other things, as if the dog understood English? I'm afraid that annoyed me.

Lindsay
x

Snap. I really didn't like her. Even if the dog did right she still yelled at it. I noticed once that she yelled come (or what ever her comand was) then he turned to her and she yelled the command harsher again and he shied away which she got cross at.

He never once got praised for doing right just shouted at more when he got it wrong. To me I was very upset by it.

The bloodhound trainer on the other hand was lovely. So pasionate and good with Holly. She made the best turn around I thought and showed just what positive training can do.

Does any one think that if Bertie had be trained positively he wouldn't have done what he did at the sheepdog trials? She was just stopping him doing what he wanted and not making him want to do something else. Very disapointed.

So glad holly made it. She has such an important role know which is just what she needed.

I personally don't think Bertie could have been any better at the sheepdog trial. It seemed sheep were the biggest possible reward to him, so I wouldn't have expected offering him any other sort of reward in return would have worked. I myself was impressed with the way she controlled him merely with the tone of her voice, even after so little time with him!
The American trainer on the other hand...well, I kept being drawn to the fact that Holly the Bloodhound had a choke-chain on, and also I wasn't impressed with the seeming lack of progress the trainer made in helping her become more confident with new/loud noises.

Overall, definitely thought it was a good programme though. Being Natural World, it put more of an educational than an entertainment spin on dog training for once!

brak3n....i was astounded that they treated the noise sensitivity as abnormal as this is  perfectly normal in the breed and so his "lack of progress" as you put it, is of no surprise to those of us with a great deal of experience in the breed. and those long link chokes are always used in usa on their bloodhounds......there is virtually no other sort of collar that will stay safely on a bloodhound and I and most other bloodhound folk use similar without any problems.

Yeah I was thinking as I was typing my previous message that perhaps other collars wouldn't fit their necks/heads very well, so I can appreciate that point.
And I wasn't aware the noise sensitivity was normal in the breed, that's interesting to know :)

supervizla....what turnaround? As far as i could tell there was nothing whatsoever wrong with the bloodhound before he took it on...& the training was pretty bog standard training that any bloodhound could achieve.

sorry.

Supervizsla - you don't have to apologise, everyone is entitled to comment and have an opinion. :) There is nothing to be sorry for :)

I can't remember how many homes Holly had been through in just 6 months so it was great that she was trained to do the job that bloodhounds do best. I had  no idea how bloodhounds were trained so I found it really interesting.

no. no need to apologise, sorry myself if you felt you had to.....its just that it was a normal bloodhound showing normal blodhound behavioural tendencies & hence there was nothing to "turn around"

Just pleased that she finally found a good home that she will always have. I knew bloodhounds were good at scenting just didn't realise that it could be done in that short a time. She was a lovely dog.

Really enjoyed the fact you can see the dogs are still capable of doing what they are bred for with the correct guidence, I also had a little cry when Holly went to work with the police you could see the US trainer was moved by this and bonded with her lots Herbie's trainer got results but a odd way of talking to him not one command almost full sentences.

> ...as if the dog understood English? <
Best part about watching BS was my OH looked at me and said "why is she using so many words? what command is the dog supposed to do?" So I'm getting through to him a little :-D

That was probably one of my only gripes with BS - would have liked a bit more reward based so that Herbie knew when he was doing it right not just nagging when he was doing it wrong.   But he was a sweetie and so wanting to please and at least he has a far better life than before.

Like you expected not to like the American guy but he really bonded with Holly and did his best for her - she was gorgeous.  Saw how choked he was when she went to work for the police.

If you want a dog to work sheep you do not WANT it focused on toys!

If the Beardie had gone to a home where it did agility, working trials, obedience etc then being toy obsessed would be great.

It seems no matter what programme is put on television the armchair/forum trainers could do it so much better! :rolleyes:

I didn't say about being focused on toys???  Just felt that she could have rewarded him better?

Also - but having thought about this I felt that him working the sheep was perhaps his reward and have to say BS wasn't actually cruel to him in any way.  And what a better life he had than before.

Also thought the groomer girl was just fab with him at the beginning when he was having his haircut - always talking sweetly to him.

Well I thoroughly enjoyed the programme I have a feeling the editing had a lot to do with what we "saw" I mean after the sheepdog trial where it went kinda pear shaped the woman actually said to someone off camera maybe the director or whoever - "You won't make me do that again will you?" So we have no idea what was happening. But I thought she did really well, although she spoke in sentences I think she was talking as much to heself as the dog. As she did say he had picked up words really quickly.He seemed an intelligent dog, and stayed with her which I thought was lovely.  Loved the way the dog got in the water too, not a dog who was scared I don't think, and liked the way she tried to get him to chill out lying in the gorse/heather, I try that with my Tess and its starting to work.

The American chap was superb I thought just the sort of chap if I had considered it before I would have expected to train bloodhounds as I have always considered them a "gentle breed" although never meeting one.
I think he did well working on the different senario's - trains, scrapyards, the sea, cadavers - and he was very sensiive to her I liked the way he called her "Miss Holly" and he was so choked when she was going but he was so very good at what he did. She was a changed dog, he obviously was a much respected dog trainer the respect the police showed him was excellent. And did you see the graduation ceremony where he was sitting in the audience and she went to him - a confident happy dog.

Karen

It seems no matter what programme is put on television the armchair/forum trainers could do it so much better! rolleyes

Gee, cheers Tohme. :rolleyes: I took the whole idea to mean the working sheep was a gimmick for the programme and nothing else and that the main thing was to stop him chasing sheep..... Surely it would have been more sensible to rehome to an agility home or similar! Do you agree then that the right way to stop him from being ball obsessed was to keep shouting all the time, and is that how all sheepdogs are trained? If so I've lost all respect for sheepdog trainers.

Goldmali - I think that Herbie was kept by the woman who was training him. At first I thought she was rather harsh with all the shouting but as the programme went on I was actually impressed with how quickly he paid attention to her and how he actually enjoyed working the sheep rather than chasing and worrying at them.

Herbie had been in two pet homes before and, in his last home, he was kept chained up in order to prevent him escaping and chasing sheep. I personally think that by turning his obsession with sheep ( what his breed were bred to do) into a positive interaction rather than a negative one was probably the only chance that he stood of not being shot by a farmer in the future. In another home there would still be the chance that he would chase again if the opportunity arose. On the farm his instinct was channelled in a positive way and he appeared to have a good bond with his trainer.

I think farmers with working dogs probably have a different perspective on the role of a dog -  I don't mean that in a negative way - and their relationship with their dogs would be different to that of most pet owners. She did mention that the only way to get a dog back to you was if that dog loved you and wanted to be with you more than anything else in the world.

I personally think that by turning his obsession with sheep ( what his breed were bred to do) into a positive interaction rather than a negative one was probably the only chance that he stood of not being shot by a farmer in the future. In another home there would still be the chance that he would chase again if the opportunity arose

I understand what you mean but, if the dog was on a lead when near sheep, and rehomed in a town home with lots of good areas for walks, etc, he would not ever be shot if he was let off lead as there would be no sheepsies ;)  As I understand the law, the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953, a dog should basically be on lead when anywhere near sheep because, "worrying" counts not only as chasing/killing but also as simply being off the lead (ie "at large") in a field or enclosure where there are sheep. Various rules apply such as this not applying to police dogs, guide dogs, etc...

So to cut a long story short, I believe dogs should be on leads near sheep wherever they live, unless they are working them.

I totally agree with you and always put my dog on his lead if any livestock is in sight. However there are occasions when you come across livestock unexpectedly - someone recently had a thread running about common land. The programme didn't say whether Herbie chased other animals or not so have no idea if he may have had a problem with chasing in general.

An agility home may well have worked out for him but I think one of the things that came across to me in the programme - and I think the American trainer also commented  on it- was that both dogs, when employed in a capacity which they were bred for, could be turned around and have their natural instincts channelled in a positive direction.

I think both dogs ending up as working dogs in the true sense of the word also demonstrated that some breeds of dog are far more suited to a life as a household pet than others - which some pet owners do not appreciate or even consider when they are looking for a pet dog. And there is always someone out there who is willing to sell any breed to any person :(

>At first I thought she was rather harsh with all the shouting but as the programme went on I was actually impressed with how quickly he paid attention to her and how he actually enjoyed working the sheep rather than chasing and worrying at them.

My thoughts exactly :D Initially I thought the barrage of commands being shouted seemed way OTT but he certainly cottoned on to what she wanted and seemed to be thoroughly enjoying himself. I was amazed at how he seemed to instinctively know that when she went one way around the sheep, he was to go the other to keep them all together. She's obviously doing something right!

>Gee, cheers Tohme.  I took the whole idea to mean the working sheep was a gimmick for the programme and nothing else and that the main thing was to stop him chasing sheep..... Surely it would have been more sensible to rehome to an agility home or similar! Do you agree then that the right way to stop him from being ball obsessed was to keep shouting all the time, and is that how all sheepdogs are trained? If so I've lost all respect for sheepdog trainers.

Do not forget you will only have seen a tiny bit of the actual footage shot

Bearded Collies do not work sheep the same way a BC does They are basically a drovers dogs & in the past have been called the Smithfield Drover-they were used to drive sheep down to Smithfield Market from all over the UK. The Sheepdog trial would have been a gimmick thought up by the TV company as the dog is a "sheepdog"however sheepdog trials are aimed at Working Sheepdogs/Border Collies & not Bearded, Smooth or Rough Collies, Sheltland Sheepdogs, GSDs, BSDs, DSDs Kelpies, Huntaways or any other type of sheepdog & it is highly unlikely that any other breed would be successful at a Sheepdog Trial. They have different shepherding trials for GSDs in Germany as well as traditional sheepdog trials

If he is obsessed with sheep than no amount of training will change him into an Agility or Obedience/Working Trials dog, he will always revert back to sheep at the earliest opportunity(seen it happen many many times). One reason I have never allowed Rjj a go at sheep, he would quickly become obsessed & need daily sheep work, which I cannot give him. Instead he has other training & is allowed a little cattle work on dogged heifers/cows on my friends sucker herd

I cannot comment on how he was trained as I only caught part of the program, but like any other training of animals/humans everyone is slightly different. I never start a dog off on sheep with the sheep loose as this encourages the chase obsession instead of controlled work, but that is JMHO. I know a very softly spoken welsh shepherd who never raises his voice to dogs yet has their complete attention & another bluff yorkshire farmer who has a voice like a foghorn yet who adores his dogs & is devoted to them & he too has his dogs full attention

A friend of mine who has working beardies suggested that the dog Herbie was obviously from strong herding lines, showing a natural herding technique, which in her view needed direction, she didn't feel he was an out and out sheep killer (from what she could see of the programme).

I found the programme interesting to watch, I was concerned BS was speaking very long sentences, but it was much better than some training programmes we have seen :) as at least she showed genuine affection for Herbie. I don't like shouting and yelling and hate dogs being shouted at, it turns me right off the trainer (whoever they are). I prefer the approach of someone like Angela Stockdale who will shout and use what she calls her "bad face" but her timing is spot on, both with "bad face" and rewards so the dog is always certain of what is going on. I felt Herbie was sometimes not sure what was wanted of him.

I think the tv team were to blame for the dog being sent to trial when he wasnt ready, as BS did say to them that she wasn't going to be happy to do it again. I wonder how much is written in to their contracts?

Lindsay
x

If he is obsessed with sheep than no amount of training will change him into an Agility or Obedience/Working Trials dog, he will always revert back to sheep at the earliest opportunity(seen it happen many many times).

I didn't quite mean it like that MM, I thought the best option might have been to rehome him to somebody with other interests and AWAY from sheep. After all, not everyone does live near sheep. :)  I have no idea how sheepdogs are trained but I did wince at how harsh she seemed on him all the time, especially as he was a rescue who seemed timid to start with.

> didn't quite mean it like that MM, I thought the best option might have been to rehome him to somebody with other interests and AWAY from sheep. After all, not everyone does live near sheep.

No not everyone does but a dog that has been allowed to develop an unfocused obsession(ie untrained)ergo it is using only it's intincts can & often does transfer that obsession to something else as in herding humans for example & of course as drovers beardies used to nip at the heels of both cattle & sheep to keep tham moving & a bit like a nippy corgi this can become a unwanted behaviour(I know of at least four or five show bred beardies from non popular lines that have needed training to stop this behaviour)

Ah yes I can see that point!

My working lines rescue Beardie went through a rather worrying obssession with traffic!!!

Sorted with no damage done thankfully

I think that both the trainers were fantastic. They took 2 dogs who did not have a hope and they gave them back their real lives and a real job. Whatever the technique and wether you like it or not, we all have to admit that THEY did it!:-)

the point i was tryint make spiritualist, was that this was a NORMAL bloodhound......not a problem bloodhound!!! Personally i thought both trainers were good, especially the collie one

the point i was tryint make spiritualist, was that this was a NORMAL bloodhound......not a problem bloodhound!!!

Both dogs had previously had problem owners who thought the dog was the problem rather than their own lack of understanding of the breed of dog they had acquired :(

Must admit Harley I have to agree with you on this, the lack of understanding from owners when buying a breed. I think people often forget to think about what the dog was actually bred for in the first place and they still have the instincts. It is very sad and that is why so many dogs probably end up in rescue :rolleyes:

Yes I agree, problem owners, but what good is that?

Let's not forget though, that 99% of pet dog owners have little idea of what they are really taking on with such breeds, and those that do, work hard to make it work. These 2 dogs have been in and out of trouble all their lives because they did not suit pet homes.

They were also both in rescues when found by the TV people, it was a place where they had been before and would no doubt be going again, if they hadn't been the chance to work. It's no good just blaming the owners and thinking that an explanation or a sweeping statement is good enough, it's a bit like standing and watching as a house burns down.

Sometimes it is better to be pro-active, rather than just re-active?
Sorry.

Not quite sure what you mean spiritulist

As I said in my previous posts I think the outcome for both Herbie and Holly was the greatest one there could have been :) 90% of the behaviour problems seen in dogs, IMHO, are caused by owners who have little or no understanding of the breed they own or have not socialised, trained or understood what is required to produce a well trained, sociable, happy dog.

I'm not quite sure who else should take the blame other than the owners - except those breeders who aren't bothered about the types of homes their pups end up in.

Pro active is always better than reactive but responsibility for our actions plays a major part as well :)

Hi Harley,
I'm not trying to cause upset to anyone, it's just that I'm confused as to why some posters would want to atribute blame, rather than applaude the outcome whatever the cause?

On again now on BBC2
Lea :) :)