Another question :rolleyes: :D

OK, now Izzy is 1 years old, I want to get her hip score done......................but when should I have it done?
I've heard it said that not near to a season as everything is a bit slack, well, I'm still waiting for a 1st one  :rolleyes:
Also, due to her little accident  she is not very fit and lacks muscle..............will having better muscles tighten everything up around the hip joints, giving a slightly better score?......every point counts  :D

I'm worried that her cruciate injury may have a knock-on effect to her hip, so I want to do the best I can regarding the hip scoring, so should I wait until after her 1st season, by which time, she'll be a fair bit fitter? OR, just go and get it done now?

Any ideas? :)

I would leave her a while longer yet.. on the whole I dont score until around 15/18months... last girl I did was 20months came back as 2:2  .. only just thinking about Ollie now at 17months..

At a year old, even without the injuries that Izzy has had.. the movement in the joints are still very loose

There's no rush.. although I know you are just dying to find out lol... ;)

Wait until you can condition her as they definitely reckon that good muscle tone helps tighten everything up and shows a better score. Also I have also heard about not near a season but I have to say I don't know if this is correct. I never hip score mine until 15 months onwards.

Hi, please don't take this the wrong way as it certainly isn't a critiscm at all...and I have no experience of cruciate problems even though I have Giants! But...are you going to breed from her even though she has cruciate problems, or do you just want to know what her score is?? I certainly wait until they'er a year old, although in America they won't even score them until they are at least 24 months old...see the OFA(Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) All the best, Dawn

Ah but they often do preliminary scoring at a year, and don't bother scoring the bad ones.  Here you only get one crack at it and Malcolm Willis analysis has not found much difference between scores at one and at two years.  Good scores generally will be just as good when older and poor hips will score worse with age.

Hi Dawn,

I am considering breeding from her sometime in the future......I wouldn't hip score otherwise :)

The Orthopeadic Specialist's opinion is that it is an unfortunate athletic injury with no clear genetic/hereditory link, although, it was something that crossed my mind too ;) but her mother is a very active dog with no problems in this area and her father has suffered no similar injuries either, nor any other ancestors that I know of.

hi chocymolly max was two when i had him hip scored he come back 5-4 and we know what his leg,s are like:rolleyes:hope that help,s

we had our dog and bitch done (few years apart) both at about 13 months old
one came back 0/0 the other was 3/3,  so earlier i believe but who knows really just depends , a youngster that has been well bred and cared for very well should have a pleasing score really but sometime i thhink these scores can come back from past generations

Miine are scored at around 18mth-2yr, this gives a more accurate idea of the hips since they've finished the majority of their growing by then and there's no point trying to cheat the system- this defeats the object of having the hips scored in the first place does it not?  Ideally you want the truest picture you can get  :-)

Stacey x

i had my bitch scored at 4years (5/4) and that was after 9 months of living in a bed sit 3 floors up with no lift, i agree good hips stay good

kash, are you implying that earlier scoring is not accurate and that my dogs hip score are not true?
pray tell, how do you cheat the system on hip scoring????

Our Import GSD, Echo, was scored on his first bitch day under the old scheme & got a Certificate, when they bought in the scoring four years later he was X rayed & scored again & got 0:0=0, our vet sent off both sets of plates(couldn't cheat as he was tattoed & this went on both X rays)as requested by the BVA(they were using his first set as training aid for hip scorers as they classed them as perfect hips & his whole pelvic structure as perfect).

The BVA stated that there had been no change at all in his hips dispite the 4 years between X rays so IMHE good hips remain good hips

My BC, Glen, was scored at 3 1/2(before he was used at stud) & was scored at 3:3=6

I would say 13 months is slightly on the young side as the dog will still be developing to at least 18 months to 2 years old and so the hips and score may well have changed :)

It is not cheating more likely giving an inaccurate score so there giving te overall Breed avg a slight incorrect standing :)

Kash,

>and there's no point trying to cheat the system- this defeats the object of having the hips scored in the first place does it not?

:( I have to say.............I feel a little resentful of that comment :( but maybe it reads differently to how you intended

I have no intention of "cheating the system" , I just wanted to know the optimum time to get it done.

Molly was scored at 15 months, so I'll wait until then, by which time, she'll hopefully have had that elusive 1st season :) and will be much fitter on the whole.

I wouldn't have a bitch scored if she hadn't had a season as the pelvis changes in preparation for pregnancy on the approach to a season so I used to have my bitches done three months after a season this meant some were done at 12 months if their season was at 9 months

Thanks Moonmaiden, that was what I'd heard......maybe it was on here, I can't remember, so whatever, I'll wait until after that 1st season definitely

thanks,

XXX

Hi

I have always had mine done at 18 months to 2 years old :)

Yes and also wait until the first season is also strongly recomended :)
Lucy
xx

Hi I agree with MM...after first season, thanks for them other info as well, quite interesting and informative as I had ino dea about crutiate problems, though I have seen a few apply for permission to show after the Op, then used as stud dogs, so I needed another take on it!!!

All the best, Dawn X

Hi Chocmolly,

Probally telling you how to suck eggs here but I have known so many people not do this. I always have eyes done first then if they are clear go on to have hips and elbows done. It is a lot cheaper to find out that your dog has failed it's eyes than having hips/elbows done then get a brilliant score then have a failed eye test. I know of 5 breeders (mostly working) that have hips/elbows done first then eyes after. Just doesn't make sense to me. I like to have my dogs scored around 15 months although many years ago I had a dog done at 4 that came out with a 4/5 score.

If the dogs are used for working then it makes perfect sense to have the hips/elbows done first. I know a lot of people who get the hips scored anyway despite having no intention of breeding, just so that they know the dog is sound before starting agility, flyball, working trials etc.

Hi,

Must disagree with that one, all of mine work but don't get out in the field until they are 18 months old dependant on their maturity and ability so they will not be doing any strenuous work before then. A lot of trainers also do the same as dogs do not reach their full abilty until approx 2 years in the main, though there are exceptions. Seems odd to me to pay £400 first when they could fail on a £33 eye test after. Every one is different though and no doubt these few have their reasons.

Surely if they fail an eye test they could still be used to work, even though they wouldn't be used for breeding? I would have thought the more important test for a working dog was the state of its joints - if those are bad then there's no point in training it up to work at all.

£400 to have hips scored????

It didn't cost that much last time I had one scored! Also a lot of people in my breed if breeding will also DNA test for the eyes which costs at least as much as hip scoring.

Hips/elbows and BVA fee for a golden yes it was just short of £400 and no I am not disputing the fact that they can or cannot be worked just stating that it makes more sense to pay for the eye test first. A lot of people with working gundogs (the majority that have no intention of breeding) do not get the hips elbows done before they consider working them. I think that this may have gone off at a tangent as I was purely stating the logic of having eyes done first

I totally agree - far better to have eyes done first and then hips/elbows.  To me it is just common sense and a possible was of a larger amount of money should hips/elbows be ok and the only to fail on the eyes.

So if your potential working dog fails its eye test you'd then not train it to work?

No Jg I never stated that, all of my dogs are trained to work. A bitch that I bought in has just failed her eye test, she has been spayed now but she will still carry on her training to work in the field and no I won't be getting her hips done to see if she is fit to work ! Again this is going off at a tangent surely can you not see the logic of having eyes done first ??

No, not really. I wouldn't train a dog up for working, whether to the gun or agility, if I didn't know that the hips were sound. A dog can fail an eye test yet its vision can be perfectly good enough for working, but without sound hips it would be pointless to train it up when the physical stress of a working life would cause damage. For breeding both tests are vital, but for working the hips are more important so that's what I'd get done first. Your dog, your choice though! :)

Well we will have to agree to differ here then wont we. I am sure that you will find the majority of dogs that work to the gun are not hip scored if they are not to be bred from. The big trainers such as Openshaw and Tyers who breed cockers and springers have never had any of their dogs hip scored and as far as i am aware hardly any working bred spaniels are hip scored, again no doubt that will open up a can of worms !! I know of a lab who has  a horrendous hip score but at 10 will still put in a full days picking up on all terrain with no a bit of lameness.

And I've seen video of a dog doing some very good game search and retrieval, and it's only when he gets close to the camera do you realise he's had both eyes removed. Sight is of far less importance to dogs than to humans, and certainly a blind dog is less handicapped than a crippled one.

>I am sure that you will find the majority of dogs that work to the gun are not hip scored if they are not to be bred from.

In my experience most dogs that work to the gun aren't hip-scored even if they are bred from. :( In an ideal world all dogs would be hipscored, whether they're working, show or pet, or for breeding or not, to get a true picture of the extent and significance of the condition. You're right, we'll have to agree to differ. :)

Yes I agree in an ideal world all dogs should be hip scored and have the relevant tests done for the breed, we should only breed from dogs with below breed average scoring, I know the bitch we bought in has failed her eye test but her lines far back are all below average in their hip scores. She is working bred 100 % and it would not be fair on her to be just a pet so she will continue her training. Unfortunately for me I will not be able to add that line to my kennel but as a responsible breeder I had her spayed a week after she failed her eyes.

When I had Molly hip scored it cost £78 including the BVA charge.......3 years ago. I'd imagine, with the elbow score too, it would bring the price up to around £150. :)

I had Lexi's done in 2004 and it was £170 (I live in Bristol).

I'm confident that her eyes will be fine ;) and as I won't be needing an eye certificate until I decide to have a litter, there's no point, as I bred her myself, it would be interesting (and reassuring) to find out what hips/elbows we get :)

TBH, I think eye certs are a waste of time , of course, I will and have had them done, but they only tell you the state of the eyes at that time, not whether they will fail or if there is that nasty recessive, pesky gene, lurking and waiting to pounce :) , most eye cert failures happen too late :( when either sire or dam have already been used in a breeding programme ;)

I have used Optigen to DNA test both my 2 girls, for the GPRA, and am pleased to tell you they are both genetically CLEAR!!!

Can't do no more than that :)

That's good then Chocmolly if you know your lines are clear , was only trying to help as a friend paid out to have hips/elbows done at a year then the bitch failed her eye cert with MRD.

Eye testing before hip/elbow scoring is ok if the eye problems are early onset, however in BC's PRA can be late onset(as happened to a 10 year old ISDS reg dog who had been eye tested clear for the previous 9 years)so it depends on the breed, even CEA DNA clear dogs can have eye problems other than the form of cea the DNA test is for

Most breeds need to be at least 2 for a PRA eye test BTW

Yes in BSDs eye problems can appear at 6 or 7 years of age even if they've been clear before. Breed club recommendation is testing every year up until age of 7. So in our case it would be rather pointless  not hip scoring first. I'd also personally like to know the state of hips in the line no matter what.