My boys were crate trained and I feel very successfully but were never shut in if I was going to be away from home more than an hour or so.  I would shut them in at night, purely to teach them to ask to be let out, they wouldnt toilet in their crate so would cry to be let out at, first I was getting up twice in a night until they were able to hold their bladders.  If I wanted to enforce sleep (I had two boys 6 months apart and sleep had to be forced !) or if I was popping out to the shed / going for a shower then its easy to just pop pup in the crate but at least I was around to hear if they needed the loo.  If pup was due a sleep and had been to the loo then I would pop out for an hour or so leaving him shut in.  BUT if I was going out for more than two hours then I always left the crate door open and pup would have the run of the kitchen, and if he peed then so be it, thats much better than being uncomfortable waiting for me to come home.  At 4 months Fagan had the run of the place and was sleeping on the sofa at night, hardly anything was chewed, the only things that were "got" were newspapers and the yellow pages.  The crate has now been packed away and the boys have their own room :rolleyes: for when they are muddy or I have visitors who dont want to be slobbered.  I have since used the crate for after Fagan had a major op and the only way to keep him still was to crate him, the same with Alf when he had a bad leg.  To crate a pup/dog for hours when you arent there is IMHO cruel.

We used a crate when our pup was small and he graduated to a pen in the kitchen when he was a few months old. It was invaluable for those times when he needed to be safely out the way - opening oven door, going to the bathroom etc. He was shut in the pen at night but the crate door was left open.

He never once had an accident in his crate - and very quickly went all night without needing to go to the toilet. If he did need to go out he would bark once to let me know.

He was very rarely left in the pen during the day for any longer than an hour but I knew, if he was left alone, that he was safe. He would go into the crate or pen through choice if he wanted to have a sleep or some quiet time and eventually we had to take the crate down altogether as he outgrew it fairly quickly.

We also used it in the car to prevent him from chewing and found it kept him from sliding around in the cargo area.

Crates do have their uses, but like any other tool, they need to be used in a correct manner. Harley's crate was his refuge of choice until he physically grew too big to fit in it :)

I agree Harley - crates are useful - and I have and do use them in exactly the way you described - but this practice of shutting dogs away all day whilst owners are at work is a worrying trend - surely the dog equivalent to battery hens ? - and realistically I'm not talking about 3-4 hours - this is just about acceptable  and in reality is probably no longer than our dogs have to spend in a car crate when going to some of the Champ shows - but any longer is jut not on !

Yvonne

I personally don't like such restriction on movement, joints, limbs, muscles etc being cooped up in a small confined space, not to mention the psychological effects. 
just on that note..the crate should always be large enough for the dog to stand stretch and move around... idealy for a larger breed than the one you own.

Recently I saw a guy buy a crate for his lab pups. He worked shifts with his wife and was leaving the pups loose i his house fr 6 hours a day ...he had two from the same litter who were destroying his home and he couldn't btake it any more. So he bought a crate. Te one he looked at was the size I have for each of mine ..there was a massove crate which I though would be more ideal for a lab.  Okay..none of my buisness! Anyway I listened in and the PAG chap told him the other cage was too small even though it said it was for labs he wouldn't put one in  a crate that size. So got him down the big one and was getting down a second when the chap insisted he could fit both pups in that cage.  The PAH guy said well he might now but in a feww weeks time he wouldn't and explained they need space especially for so long.

The chap bought the cage and at that point I bugged in and explained the PAH guy was right. .. and I hope he wasn't expecting to go home and shove the 4 month old pups in the crate with no training... that he must train them ideally over week or so to be happy and relaxed in the crate. I was impressed the pet shop was giving good advice about the size of the cage but I think training advice and the ideal use of the crate is needed.

It is sad in a way people like this fella had the two dogs but end of the day those dogs probablly get a much much better life than over half the dogs in this country! Probabbly a better life than half the kids in this country! Or half the elderly population! And that puts the quality of life for those dogs above the average! So it's actually decently good.

>those dogs probablly get a much much better life than over half the dogs in this country! Probabbly a better life than half the kids in this country! Or half the elderly population! And that puts the quality of life for those dogs above the average!

You have evidence or is that just guesswork? You seem to have a very poor view of society if you think that over half the dogs, children and elderly are crated for more than 6 hours a day! :D

...it could catch on!  ;)

The pups were only to be crated while they were young... and I bet he never even ended up using the crate . He was a nice guy..there is no reason to suspect he and his wife would caue theor dogs any actuall suffering..anyone who let the dogs eat as much of their house must love their dogs!

seriousy the UK is known to have a bad reputation for animal abuse and neglect... there is a vast room for improvement. The country is not capable of taclking major abuse right now. A massive amount of dogs don't even get taken out for walks.

Were I a breeder that couple would not have been given them one pup let alone two pups from the same litter...but they'd just go get them from a different breeder..but at least not from me... I don't breed dogs so it's not  my problem who get hold of dogs anyways.   ...  But  why did they want two pups? So they could have companionship while the couple were out at work..well... that at least is thoughtful!  Not thought through but certainly thoughtfull!

>Were I a breeder that couple would not have been given them one pup let alone two pups from the same litter...but they'd just go get them from a different breeder..but at least not from me...

That's alright then :rolleyes:

>But  why did they want two pups? So they could have companionship while the couple were out at work..well... that at least is thoughtful!  Not thought through but certainly thoughtfull!

If it's not thought through how on earth can it be considered thoughtfull.  If you use the search facility you will find endless discussions on the folly of getting two puppies together on the basis they will make sustitute human company for each other.  These are just puppies the real problems will occur as they mature making puppy distructive behaviour like a walk in the park. 
I really don't see how some peoples bad animal husbandry can ever be used to justify anothers.

If you notice I said:  Not thought through but certainly thoughtfull!

It is obviously not an educated descision.

>It is sad in a way people like this fella had the two dogs but end of the day those dogs probablly get a much much better life than over half the dogs in this country! Probabbly a better life than half the kids in this country! Or half the elderly population! And that puts the quality of life for those dogs above the average! So it's actually decently good.

I strongly disagree with that.  I am sure there are a few dogs with a worse life and maybe even a few children but I really can't see why you consider this above average.  Even getting two puppies together, except by those very experienced in rearing puppies, is likely to put their quality of life and their future in a very compromised position let alone cooping them up in a cage for hours on end. 

And why on earth would it matter if the dogs in question had a better life than half the kids in he country if their life still isn't good enough? What's other, totally different, situations got to do with it?  There will always be people and animals worse off no matter what, it's no excuse.

>I personally don't like such restriction on movement, joints, limbs, muscles etc being cooped up in a small confined space, not to mention the psychological effects. 

>just on that note..the crate should always be large enough for the dog to stand stretch and move around... idealy for a larger breed than the one you own.

I have large breed dogs and a very large crate.  Sure they can stretch, move around and lie in all sorts of different positions; two of them have been known to get into it at the same time. But I still feel it is too restrictive on the body for long periods IMO, restriction for me means a space too small for the dog to freely walk about.  :-)

This may have already been said but........

I think that if you use crates and are a breeder etc: then maybe just advising people about the right way to use the crete

I have used crates in the past, as the pups den that he can come and go as he pleases, unless I need to pop out then I shut him in, this is for his safety so that he does not come to any harm within the house. I have NEVER left my pup in the crate for longer then 3 hours and never will.
I think that if enough breeders, owners, trainers etc: spread the RIGHT way to use the crate then word will soon spread!

THIS is my OWN OPINION and if puppy people come to me and ask about using crates I try and advise them.

I have a HUGE dog crate, it would fit a great dane.
What I use it for, is 2 house rabbits!!!!!!!!
last time i used it for my dogs I was camping nearly 2 years ago and my Am cocker and Rottie cross were in it together at night and If i needed to nip to the shops!!!!!!!
Sayiing that Gemma is used to a crate as I crate trained her when i used to be out of the house to take kids to school and at night when in bed for first few years (long storey and I was a house wife but she was not treated right by my ex), but would never leave a dog crated now for more than a few hours. And all 3 of my dogs are not crated!!!!!
But then again I know i I doonnot have the time and cannot cope with a puppy so would never have one at this time in my life
lea :)

>But then again I know i I doonnot have the time and cannot cope with a puppy so would never have one at this time in my life

That's a much more sensible and selfless attitude :)

I agree with those who say that a dog should'nt be crated during the day for anything other than short periods.

However, my Kerry loves the fabric crate we got for him (cheap too, Argos £30 for large size) and sleeps in it and travels in it.

We do shut him in at night as he seems to prefer it. I think he feels secure in it and he sleeps in at the weekend for a bit longer when the door is shut !

For occasional short periods, ( 2 hours or less ) he's much less likely to bark or get upset when he's left if in the crate.

None of the above of course is an excuse for leaving them in during the day, all day which is just nuts.