I've been going to agility with my dog for 8 weeks now. The first 6 weeks were introductory and we used toys etc - it was quite enjoyable. However now we've "moved up" to the next class, the trainers have become very intense, and I'm really not enjoying it as much.  However, the point of this post is, there is a young collie dog there who is very nippy - mainly to his owner. I think he's about 8-9 months and of course he's not allowed to do jumps etc - but today one of the trainers scruffed him, really shouted at him and then pinned him down. This didn't appear to bother the owner, but I was unhappy about it - isn't this sort of very strong correction likely to worsen any aggression?

I wouldn't do it...I think it's totally wrong...I would change training places!

I would be out of that class as quickly as my legs would carry me.

What is to stop them using this training method on your dog too.

I know many people may think that scruffing and pinning down are good training techniques but we have moved on from that, you don't have to act like an Alpha dog to earn respect and train a dog nowadays and yes you are right it can go one of two ways a dog will submit or retaliate.

Imagine if the owner decides on using the technique at home, she could end up with a nasty bite if they do not have the authority in the first place, which the owner obviously does not have for the dog to be nipping her in the first place. It is a very dangerous practise if you have no natural authority, praise and reward can be used by everyone and not only is the owner happy but so is the dog, who also learns to love and trust their owner, not fear.

As I said not my cup of tea for training, so I would be out of there.

Thanks for that, you've confirmed my feelings exactly. We're attending an improvers' training class with an excellent APDT trainer, so I think we'll just stick with that. I feel so sorry for the girl with the collie, though....:-(

I disagree. Perhaps your dog is a sweetie but the dog you saw is well on his way to the knackers yard if he carries on with that kind of behaivour and from 8 months too Imagine what he'll be like as an adult with a full set of teeth and an attitude to match? Biting the hand that feeds you is not a good idea and he needs to know that before it's to late. You as an owner can kill with kindness too and there are plenty of loved dogs that are PTS through aggression issues more than anything else, believe me, I know it and I've lived through it. It wasn't pleasant.

However, if your not comfortable with the class, there are plenty of others out there that perhaps could match your needs better and you would better enjoy. After all, it should be fun for both of you.

>from 8 months too

I don't think that's necessarily particularly shocking :P Especially when doing something very exciting like agility that is going to get the adrenalin flowing. My Dobe didn't stop nipping me when going OTT until he was about 2! Completely different from biting/aggression. To have tried to scruff and/or pin him would have sent him into an absolute frenzy! It didn't happen all the time...certain times of high excitement would trigger it, and it worked well to redirect his focus onto a toy if necessary. We started ringcraft quite late, when he was almost a year, and the triangle/up and down sent him nuts the first few classes, and it was a bit like having a demented jack-in-the-box on the end of the lead. Just a bit over-exuberant, but at least he had spirit :P Collies can be quite mouthy anyway I think (?) and 8 months certainly isn't that old, although I'm sure many will disagree with me :D

I agree that it's a problem that should be nipped in the bud (no pun intended!) but, fighting aggression (however mild) with aggression is not a good idea IMO.  The dog may quickly learn that this trainer - and maybe his owner if they do the same thing - is a threat, and may step up his own aggression from nipping to full-on biting.

I've seen this in action - the first agility club I went to had a little rescue collie who hated one of the other collies in the class, and the feeling was mutual.  Once session, they started to fight so the trainer went to break them up - he put his hand between them and the rescue collie nipped him, purely by accident.  He retaliated the way this trainer has, by scruffing her, pinning her to the floor and shaking her, shouting at her.  So what did she do?  Soon as he went to let go, she went to bite him out of fear, to defend herself.  He did it again and scared the life out of her.  All she learned was that he was a threat to her - her owner actually thought it a good idea to do the same thing, though I did try to explain that she'd end up bitten if she did it and her dog would get worse.  As for me, I never went back again, and I rang them to explain why.

What this dog needs is training in a less intense environment - he needs work on his self-control issues (as this appears to be).  Clicker training would help immensely with that, but TBH training anything that teaches him that nipping ends the play/work would be beneficial.  It appears to be frustration - and anything that treats the symptoms, not the cause (i.e. aggression towards him when he nips) won't help in the long run.  Even if it did stop his nipping, the cause may come out in other ways - self-mutilation, OCD, any number of ways.

I have just ahd this message from one of my puppy owners who are having trouble with puppy nippin in a 4 months old.

"Had dog-training again tonight and it made Ian feel a bit inadequate but after reading your article some of his reactions are easier to understand. 

Whilst Harry was getting into the down position he tried to bite Ian and Ian was advised to hold him down by the scruff of the neck they also advised us to muzzle him whilst trying to dominate him, as they were aware that his breed is a wilful and dominant dog if given the chance. Does this sound right to you? Dont want to continue with the training if you believe the advice given goes against his nature, dont know anyone in the area with an Elkhound therefore you are our lifeline, cheers!!"

Now this is a 4 month baby, who will either be confused, bored and is trying to change whzt is happening by initiating rough play or if being scruffed being forced to defend itself.

I have pup same age myself and she will constantly try and get the others to play by mouthing at them, launching mock atacks etc.  They certainly don't need to use excessive force to stop her, and neither do I.

The recomeded advice the trainers are giving my puppy owner will only undermine their relationship with their pup.

I would not say my breed is dominant, they just won't take bullying.

They also will do almost anything for food and a fuss.

Does anyone know of any modern training classes or trainers in the Great Yarmouth area that I can steer these owners to before they and their training clases ruin this baby.

Does anyone know of any modern training classes or trainers in the Great Yarmouth area that I can steer these owners to before they and their training clases ruin this baby.

Yes, there's some fab trainers in Norfolk, esp. Attila (can't pronounce his second name :P ).

<a class='url' href='http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Norfolk'>http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Norfolk</a>  I can recommend Kiran, Attila, and Alton, I don't know the others personally but they should be fine.

Terrible advice given to the owners - I do hope they will follow your advice and change. Apart from anything else their enjoyment of their pup must be being ruined by all this dominance rubbish.

Hth

Lindsay
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attilas amazing!!!!

Thanks emailed them the link

when was this done in actual "training" or when the dog was watching? because if i had a dog biting me wheb watching it WOULD have a smack!!!
i wouldnt whilst i was training though! as rthat is a training thing rather than a manners thing

This collie is continually nipping his owner, and I gather they go to an obedience class as well, and have done for some months.

It is a shame that whilst incompetent trainers such as this dinosaur are still encouraged to continue in this manner that this way of treating dogs will not die out as the attendees will pick this up.

Those who work with dogs that would not tolerate this type of handling do not use unecessary confrontational techniques such as these.

is it  when its wotking though, or all of the time?

Do you go to my agility club? Or is this a different club and more common?

oh I get it yu are down south. Not local then!

Your post looks like stuff I was posting here this time last year. I changed clubs but got much the same advice from the other club... my dog just needed a strong hand.

I actually don't agree  totally I think it makes my dog worse ..he is better if he thinks I am playing a game with him and he likes to please me...but he also needs to be under control or agility is not safe..so you do need authority over the dog and that is what I didn't have and why I was told to yell and scruff. To be honest being more forceful is what I do need to learn but I struggle with the concept of how without doing the scruff yell punish thing. If I get tough he thinks what have I done wrong and that is when he acts extra extra out of control! ..I used to be so scared that a trainer would grab him and scruff him it made me very ancxious because although in agility he looks like he would take on the world in nomal life he is more timid and watchful of strangerers and it had bad effect on him. So we changed clubs. Now he is better at the first club because at the nice one he got too out of conntrol..

Trainers frequently do not know what to do...some thing work with some dogs and others they just don't know. It's hard enough getting people who are prepared to give up their time to help train.   It's just a shock when you see some people being so rough with the dogs. 

With mine I can say 'no' and my bitch will be all upset and switch off... I can yell a loud  NO and my dog will bounce around totally oblivious!  So I can understand how some dogs need more firmness than others. But I still don't like some stuff I see...but that's life...  I do whish there was a set idea in training class what to teach people and inspections of clubs to make sure we get the right advice. It is so hard to guess what to do when you really want advice.  

The way I look at it it is all the methods work..it just depends whay you like and what type of relationship you want with your dog and how you want your dog to work for you.

The way I look at it it is all the methods work..it just depends whay you like and what type of relationship you want with your dog and how you want your dog to work for you.

Exactly the conclusion I'm coming to. 

My dobes are both very much like this - Soli in particular - if I get harsh with them to try and gain "control", they both effectively tell me where to go.  I've found with both that the more pleasant I am with them, the more obedient they become - I have to be appealing enough to be obeyed :D

The last 1-to-1 agility session I went to with Soli, we had a truly awful time until about the last 15 minutes.  That was because of me - I was in a foul mood for various reasons, and I was a little short with her, so she reacted by being standoffish and constantly wandering off to do her own thing.  At one point I tried to force her to walk back to the first jump by her collar - and she threatened to bite me, I'd pushed her too far, so I gave her a break.  As I calmed down and made an effort to be more patient with her and more fun - such as jogging back to the start point instead of walking her back by her collar - she got more responsive and by the end she was working wonderfully.  The same is true of my other dobe, when I am nicer to be around he responds beautifully.

I know what you mean about struggling to work out how to gain control without using force - had me stumped for a long time.  But I find it's a case of working out what motivates your dog - and use it!  If Soli wants her ball, she has to do as I ask to get it, and she does.  But, on the flip side, if I want her ball back again - I have to respect her, and offer something in trade (or, again, she gets nippy).  It's all about working with your dog, not against them; who would you rather work for, the boss that praises, encourages and is pleasant to be around or the boss who is constantly on your back and always putting you down?

But I find it's a case of working out what motivates your dog - and use it!
..food. :rolleyes:

....actually my boy he loves praise but my girl she is a 100% materialistic!

Most dogs are scruffed because trainers dont know what to do - they can then very cleverly blame the owner or the dog if that method doesn't work.. :P
It's true, they will say the owner hasn't got the timing right or that they are too soft or too over the top. Gives bad trainers a myriad of excuses.

Here's 4 articles re dominance (which is related to the whole scruffing thing):

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

Hope they are of interest :)

Lindsay
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i have never scruffed any of my dogs , but IF one ever bit me out of Agression  (rather than excitement/frustration) it WOULD get a Bloody hard smack on its nose! Needless to say my dogs dont bite me! 

I only trained budgies and rodents before I had dogs...  can you imagine scruffing a rabbit or budgie ( if it can be done ) then expecting it to come when you call!

It was a big shock to me hen I see how dogs are trained and this dominance thing is still about..I had thought it had gone out because the books I've read all describe reward training..like you would use with any other animal...like you use with children.

Dont go down the children route, I think dogs & children very occasionally do need a smack. I don't mean beating the living day lights out of them, either. We can all try the 'ignore the bad behaviour' & 'praise the good', but sometimes it does not work. My son had an occasional smack, he really, really was hard work & tried me to the limits! My daughter did not, just a word was all she needed. My dogs DO NOT growl or go for me, they never have, but my dog did once get a severe reprimand, including a smack when he chased sheep.

Some of the exciteable collies need to know that they can't bite other dogs or their owners even if they are excited while training or running courses. I wouldn't scruff though, I would stop immediately & shout NO, I would also try a spray collar (I have seen this work) or try a rattle bottle & or remove them from the training immediately, till they had calmed down.

Just my tuppenceworth but many years ago when scruffing methods etc. were more commonplace you heard very little about aggressive dog behaviour and out of control dogs.   Now with the 'nanny state', dog aggression & unruly dog behaviour is on the increase......mmm....something in that maybe?

Same could be very applicable to children now, too.

I suspect that it's got more to do with the people owning the dogs - these days, so many dogs are bought on impulse with minimal (if any) research, so the dog doesn't get the right start in life, leading to problems later.  Soli is a prime example - her previous owner admitted she knew absolutely nothing about dogs when she bought Soli, resulting in a fear-aggressive dog.  In days gone by I think more emphasis was put on the responsibility of owning a dog and looking after it properly, rather than viewing them as simply a commodity that can be ousted when the owner's had enough or the dog becomes a problem.

I do agree that lack of consequence is responsible for the problems rife with childrens' behaviour, although some could also be attributed to poor modern diet!

I don't think that more dogs are bought on impulse these days :) Probably far less :) When I was a child far more people had dogs - many were mongrels bought from a friend/neighbour who had had an 'accidental' litter because the dog roamed around freely :) Most mothers were at home and so could care for a dog. Care was often taken far less seriously than now. I doubt whether the average dog was wormed/flea treated/neutered etc etc etc.

Daisy

When I was a child most households had a dog, usually a heinz 57 and nobody I knew ever attended a training class and a canine behaviourist was unheard of - at least in the world I lived in :)

Dogs were just there and, unless they were a working dog, just got on with being a dog. Many roamed free ( obviously there was less traffic around), were fed on table scraps with the odd bone now and again and only visited the vet if there was a problem and very rarely for preventative treatments.

You very rarely came across a dog that was agressive with either people or other dogs - there were a couple I remember walking past  slowly and quietly while keeping a wary eye out but these types tended to be the exception rather than the rule.

You very rarely came across a dog that was agressive with either people or other dogs

Absolutely!  It was certainly very rare and if it did happen (when I was a child, my dog was teased by schoolchildren and understandably bit one of them! :( ) they immediately went on a oneway trip to the Vet and therefore didn't reproduce.  Now they are taken to a rescue kennel, rehomed, bite again and make work for behaviourists. ;)  Trainers and behaviourists are a very new invention.

Well, we had working dogs that minded their own business, lived outside, on scraps, the odd bone, never saw the vet and were used for hunting or herding cattle.  When I was growing up, my first encounter was with the family's yellow lab called Brandy.  He was most unfriendly and would growl and nip if you went near him.   Many times, I was told to leave the dogs alone and many times I got nipped and I've forgotten how many times, I was told; it's your own fault for pestering the dogs.

many years ago when scruffing methods etc. were more commonplace you heard very little about aggressive dog behaviour and out of control dogs.   Now with the 'nanny state', dog aggression & unruly dog behaviour is on the increase......mmm....something in that maybe?



I really don't think this is the case, although I can see why it seems like it.
Years ago, many people had more time - there was often someone home all the time, there was less stress generally.
Dogs who were a problem or who bit were usually got rid of (ie put to sleep) so we never heard of them going to a behaviourist because folk had the Lassie
view of a dog and took it personally if it bit them.

These days people get a dog and leave it for hours on end, it barely gets walked, gets terrible diets full of rubbish, etc etc.

I think we probably have more dogs too than used to be around, I haven't looked at statistics but we seem to have far more "pet" dogs. Whereas dogs used
to be owned for a reason - working, etc.

Lindsay
x

>I think we probably have more dogs too than used to be around, I haven't looked at statistics but we seem to have far more "pet" dogs. <

An interesting statistic I've heard from one behaviourist who travels the world  is that the number of dog aggression cases increases as the number of multi-dog households increases. It used to be the average family had one dog. Now many pet owners get a second dog to replace them as companion and entertainment. He does not include dog enthusiasts (like most on this board) in these stats. Aggression in dogs also seems to increase as aggression in the human population increases as well.

An interesting statistic I've heard from one behaviourist who travels the world  is that the number of dog aggression cases increases as the number of multi-dog households increases. It used to be the average family had one dog. Now many pet owners get a second dog to replace them as companion and entertainment. He does not include dog enthusiasts (like most on this board) in these stats. Aggression in dogs also seems to increase as aggression in the human population increases as well.

That's pretty interesting, and I can well believe the last bit! :)

Lindsay
x

I have to say when I was young in the 60's and 70's our neighbour had the most aggressive dog ever, yes it was a mongrel (a large terrier cross) and it was Ok with humans but it wouldn't let another dog within 30 feet. We used to have to check their garden before we took our dog out or Mac would have had him! When I was about 10 our Sheltie was attacked by a German Shepherd while its owner shouted pathetically  for it to come, nearly ripped his back haunch to shreds, and our collie puppy was attacked a year or two later by a labrador that came running across a main road to reach him, again while the owner looked on. So I don't believe that dogs are any more aggressive now than they ever were, people are just less prepared to put up with aggressive behaviour.

We can all try the 'ignore the bad behaviour' & 'praise the good', but sometimes it does not work

Agree completely! the above can work sometimes, but not every time. One instance if is the inappropriate behaviour is self rewarding (eg some types of barking) as then ignoring it will certainly not make it go away.

However, I do think we are the ones who need to learn more. Dogs are dogs, and in my view we should try to understand them more.
I think smacking shows we are not in control and don't understand what else to do. Usually we are frustrated and irritated. I'd rather try to learn more
about what makes dogs tick and put in lots of hard graft in training them so they are well behaved.

I don't think I've ever, in all my 45 years, seen anyone smack a dog  when the dog "deserved" it.

including a smack when he chased sheep.

No offence but why was he off the lead in the first place? had you socialised and trained him to sheep? To me smacking the dog (presumably once you'd gotten hold of him) doesn't help, but training (chase recall, etc) does.

Lindsay
x

Hi Lyndsay

It was my fault when he chased the sheep, It was a walk I know well & it was the first time ever sheep were in the field. Zak was ahead & went through a stile, the sheep were there, so he chased them. It didn't happen again, I actually own goats, but most dogs love the thrill of a chase. He learned a lesson that day, he knew he had done wrong & he has only had the one smack. Sorry, but sometimes words are not enough, the same with children!

but most dogs love the thrill of a chase.

Tell me about it - my breed is Belgian Tervs who pretty much live to chase, or at least all mine have :)

I completely understand your reaction, the unexpected situation etc and I'm not judging you - years ago I'd have done the same thing (partly through terror in case my dog was shot by the farmer!!).

I tend to feel that it's up to us to train a good chase recall, so that our dogs are under the control we need for the environment we live in. One of my interests is predatory chasing  (that's not just stock but joggers etc as well) and I put a lot of hard work in to my own dog to be able to recall her off deer and other animals. I've really worked so hard with her and her chase recall is up to police dog standard. I am proud but it was a necessity due to often taking her to areas where there are deer.

Back in October I attended a workshop led by a police dog training instructor regarding predatory chasing. I learned that in his experience (he lives in Cumbria!) approx. 90 per cent of dogs can be stopped by training (Ie reward based training, working on the target, training a predictive command). In his experience only 10 per cent of dogs needed an aversive and he used a spray collar (with a few particular rules in place). In many instances this is for confirmed sheep chasers.

I realise the smack/scruff - don't smack/don't scruff is an ongoing discussion which may never come to an end  :P but IME as it is possible to train or at least prevent something like you mentioned, we should do it. A smack may stop the dog - unless it simply associates the smack with returning to the owner - but  a real chaser won't be stopped by that at all.

Lindsay
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