I can see how Society's falling apart if the sense of community spirit and offering help to neighbours nowadays equates to interference and starting feuds. Very, very sad. :(

yes I certainly do agree...but again it is a lack of perfection we have to live with...one can't change the world.

Here you are doing very well if you've actually seen your neighbour..to actually know their name is deeply intimate!

People like to live in their own  little world and do not welcome intrusion. Many people suffer from stress and they just can't cope with more social bombardment...their home is their 'nest' their place of rest and safety from the outside world any attempt to violate that privacy that  'safety' can be that step too far... this is why there are so many problems between neighbours when those who know best kindly share their helpful advice with their neighbours.

My life is ideal...married two good kids, good dogs, good incomes, good cars, good house,  and very time rich!  People like me simply don't tell hard working single mums that they need to spend time training their dog! I couldn't do what she does....she has my respect!

one can't change the world

Agreed, but we can affect the little bit around us, and your ideal life as you describe puts you in a perfect position to offer to spend half an hour a day with this dog to help both dog and struggling owner???? ;) :)  I would have been delighted if a caring neighbour had offered me 'just a little bit' instead of me rehoming my 9 year old dog when I was in a similar position and knew that my much loved dog wasn't getting what he deserved. :(

Sure we're not all the same but I've been on the other side. :(  Please just consider?? :)

On the flip side of that, my neighbour approached me a few weeks back to say that Angel had howled for the hour that I took Merlin to the vets. I could actually hear her when i got out of the car. I was very sorry, but being as sensitive as I am, I now will not leave her for even a second on her own, so if Merlin needs to go somewhere alone, I get a babysitter. This has also put a stop to my alternative weeks of training. Then yesterday she told me that she only ever heard her the once, never on a training day. So i have been running around, panicking for not a lot. Perhaps just some ideas about kongs and stuff would be more acceptable. I do agree it is sad if it causes a feud. Why should neibours put up with noise. But saying that, knowing the person well enough to know how to speak to her is probably better. Can you approach another neibour who is closer to her? Not neccessarily to complain, but because the dog is obviously stressed.

neighbours need to have respect and not create ridiculous feuds through senseless complaining and interference into each others day to day lives.

Well YEAH! :rolleyes: But much as we wish we cannot control what other people do! I had my previous neighbours on both sides report us as frequently as they could, just because they didn't like us -despite the fact that the council proved them wrong and us right every single time. Our dogs were NOT barking excessively. But anyone can report dog owners anyway and by law the council then HAS to send out a letter, and they did. 7 times. It didn't stop them that the council said there was no problem. I just figured you might want to do her a favour and warn her BEFORE it happens, as I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy to get caught up in neighbour feuds because of dogs.......

nasty neighbours will complain no matter how good you are... it is a shame they don't get into trouble for trying to cause problems..I bet yours cause no end of trouble for other people as well as you... sorry you had to go through that.

Most like to just stick at compaing personally all the time and gossiping wich is bad enough rather than abuse the system in that way. Complainers alays start off with that harmless well intended little quiet word . Always best not to be the one to  ignite the flames! imo.

Tenaj, I agree with you.

I work for three hours and forty five minutes a day.

I have waited ten years for a dog because prior to this year, I was working part time three full days a week.
I didn't think it was appropriate to leave a dog, even with a walker, for such long periods.

I consider myself lucky to have so much time to devote to my pet (and the rest of my family).  There are thousands upon thousands of pet owners who go out to work for longer than I do and leave their dogs for many hours, crated or uncrated.  Most 'average' dog owners don't do proper research into their breed or breeder, don't do enough training, don't do enough socialisation. 

I am doing my best here, but I am still just a pet owner. I will never breed, I'll never show, I have a dog because I like them and I think we can offer a good home.  Sometimes reading on here, I feel that maybe that's not the case, but thankfully so far the dog seems to be pretty happy.  The fact that I'm even here reading this means I care about the welfare of my puppy.

Well I'm sure you are great with your dogs. It is all about being realistic and gaining a balance. The ideal world does not exist... so the best any person can do is their best. 

I work from home part time but appreciate it is a luxury many people don't have and without my partner I wouldn't have! It's hard enough to find part time work to fit in with having kids and three hours is not much to be out at work! . You are also fortunate! It's great to be able to be home but no one can grumble at a person having to work  because until they retire all people need to work.

As has been said several times.  Some people have to work but nobody has to have a dog.

But why should people that work not experience the pleasure a dog can bring.  As long as the dog is looked after correctly and not left on its own for long periods.  Their quality time together could well be much better then from an owner at home all day.

There can be no hard and fast rules, it is down to the individual circumstances and the temperament of the dog.

Watching mine this morning, they had their usual hours run at 7am and other then barking when the postman arrived they have slept in their beds (their choice) all morning.  They would have done exactly the same had I been out for the same period.

Unless there is a medical problem dogs will adapt to a routine very quickly and are usually better for it. 

As you say as long as they are looked after correctly and not left on their own for long periods I don't see it is a problem. It is the manner in which they are confined and for how long that is the issue.

sorry but if you are saying people working three hours a day shouldn't have dogs ..like with the crates please do take this to the RSPCS and your MP and get most dog owners banned! lol! I hope you have a big house because you will need to take in a lot of dogs!

End of conversation because it simply to me this is not an issue..  if it is a big issue to you so do something about it.. get out there change the laws change society.. posting on a forum is not enough if you feel so deeply that this is a genuine animal welfare issue.  If I felt so strongly I certainly would take actions. Take care..your sentiments are sweet and honorable... but I think life just isn't that perfect.

I think posting on a forum read by nearly 6000 users is an excellent way of bringing these issues before people that may be considering getting a dog or who may yet reconsider how they are keeping the one they have.  I think the RSPCA would be concerned to find a puppy keep in a cage all day as the new Animal Welfare Act covers the suitability of housing and the opportunity to behave in a natural fashion which would certainly cover being able to exercise and develop properly.  I don't suppose we will ever achieve a perfect world but I don't see why that should prevent us trying, shrug our shoulders, and just accept such things which appear to be proliferating as it is.

There are far worse practices then using a crate for 4 hours a day.

That's like saying it's worse to kill a person than to just beat them up so therefore beating them up is okay.

is it?

End of conversation .... with kind respect I think you are being a little silly. Time to stop responding me thinks.

I thought that was a very good analogy :)

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

Out of choice how long do your dogs spend in a bed or lying in any one place in the daytime, assuign they are not following you about?
..you've got me watching them to see..

.. my girl she just got up walked through the sitting room dooor to the dining room, opened the living room door, opened the door to her room and went to snooze in her crate.

....let's see if she doesn't move from there for 4 hours.

....she won't be given that  choice!

Ah! Now this is the bottom line!

My puppy, an Estrela Mountain Dog, was bred to watch sheep in Portugal.  The shepherds would take the dogs up the mountains and leave them there all day watching the sheep, collecting them at dusk and taking them back down the mountain.  As adults, they require only 20 minutes of exercise a day, and they are a giant breed (they can cope with more if you want them to, but 20 minutes is sufficient).

At the current time, I reckon Ludo is sleeping around 18-20 hours a day.  She finds a favourite spot, lies down and stays there for several hours, even when I'm at home.  I sit in the kitchen every afternoon and evening to keep her company, and she just lies there fast asleep.  Even when she's awake she barely moves!  She is the least active dog I've ever met!  She doesn't even greet visitors when they arrive until they come right into the kitchen!!

She usually has three periods of activity during the day, around 20 mins a time, where she wants to run around, play tug toy, pounce on her Kong and generally be exciteable.  Two of these are ALWAYS after breakfast and around 9pm at night, the other is usually in the afternoon.  I drop what I'm doing and play with her until she's worn out.  The rest of the time, she does nothing!  She will go out in the garden for a wee, then just lies down quietly.

This is NOT a labrador or a cocker spaniel or a jack russell, who I agree would go mad being crated for 2-3 hours at a time.  My dog is the most calm, mellow, sedentary dog I've ever met, and I've spent three weeks at home with her all day (I only went back to work last week). 

THAT's why I think she's OK in her crate.  Thank you to those who have been supportive.  I would love to stay at home all day but I have a job to go to and a life to live, I still think we're able to offer a loving home and I'm confident that Ludo is happy with us. 

I will try leaving her in our new kitchen after we've moved though, and this afternoon I'm going to leave her in the kitchen for a trial run for an hour while I take my daughter to swimming.  I'm not getting rid of the crate just yet though...

According to this site, the recommendation for exercise is "as much as you can give him", not 20 minutes per day.

This is where I got my info from:

http://www.petplanet.co.uk/dog_breed_profile.asp?dbid=134

I quote: Overall Exercise  20 - 40 minutes per day.
This is a breed that loves open spaces. They do not require a great deal of exercise, however they are always ready if given the opportunity. Estrela Mountain Dogs are very agile so a well-fenced garden is a must. Exercise must be given in limited amounts during the growth period, as too much can cause bone and joint problems later in life. 

This sentiment was echoed by my breeder.  To be honest I'm happy to walk her for an hour a day (when she's fully grown) but my point was that they are not dogs which NEED a lot of exercise, because I consider it more harsh to crate highly energetic dogs than sedentary ones.

I think I must be reading that rather differently to you.  Leaving aside the growth period it seems to be saying they are breed that likes to be out and about.  Perhaps like JG suggests an outside run would be more appropriate for such a large breed.
"Not appropriate for appartment living"  You can't get more appartment than a crate!

It also says :Activity. Likes to play and sleep a lot.

As Goldmali says, it's not difficult to housetrain a puppy without ever using a crate at all! It depends entirely on how much effort the owner is prepared to put in.

>it's not difficult to housetrain a puppy without ever using a crate at all! It depends entirely on how much effort the owner is prepared to put in

That is fine if you are in the lucky position of not having to work.  Unfortunately a lot of people have to, if only for a few hours a day.  It is near impossible to house train a puppy if you are not there when it wakes up and the whole kitchen floor is available.  By crating it, it will learn to hold on until it is let out, I can't see anything wrong with that as long it is not an unreasonable time.

You may have to work but you never have to have a dog.  If it means crating all day as the "practical solution" to not being able to cope with a sodden or damaged house I really think people should be considering if they really can offer a dog a reasonable existance.

I am not talking about leaving a dog in a crate all day, but if you work part time I see no reason why you should not own a dog as long as you are willing to put in quality time with it.  I never considered myself a bad owner for leaving a pup in a crate for four hours having spent a quality hour with it before I left home, then most weekends with it at shows. All my pups raised in this way have grown into well balanced dogs.

If ever I had a moments doubt I reminded myself of the day I came home from shopping having left a youngster for about an hour only to find she had pulled the lead out from behind the freezer and was chewing it, another few minutes and she would have been through it.

I personally don't like to raise a puppy letting it think it is ok to damage the house, wee on the floor and jump on the furniture.  The crate used sensibly will stop these habits forming. 

I also liked to come home from work and greet my puppy with a smile on my face, I don't think many people could do this faced with chewed cupboards and mess all over the floor. 

If ever I had a moments doubt I reminded myself of the day I came home from shopping having left a youngster for about an hour only to find she had pulled the lead out from behind the freezer and was chewing it, another few minutes and she would have been through it.

But that's simply bad management. You would not leave dangerous things laying around so a toddler could get to it, so why do it with pups/dogs? Cables can easily be covered up with cable protectors. We also put a hook in the wall behind any fridge etc and hook it onto that so there is no slack.

I personally don't like to raise a puppy letting it think it is ok to damage the house, wee on the floor and jump on the furniture.  The crate used sensibly will stop these habits forming.

But even more so, the owner being at home WITH the pup will........ in a far more effective and kind way. And I'm sure most people don't have furniture a dog can jump on in the kitchen, and the kitchen is usually the best place for a pup to be confined to. Not a crate but not the entire house either.

Just as Marianne says, there are far less restricting ways of keeping a puppy and your home safe for such lengthy periods.  I use a puppy pen for the first few months, I don't mind them weeing in there, if they have to they have to.  I can still greet with a smile, lift them out for a visit outside and a play and return and clean after.  Before I had the pen I used the kitchen in the same way as it also has a easily cleaned floor and no exposed wires etc.

We are talking a large gundog breed, you would have a problem putting it completely out of reach, the cable was joined to the freezer at the bottom.  In those days there was no such thing as cable protectors and the cable was not even visable.

No, you will not find a sofa in the kitchen, but I would not like my kitchen units, skirting boards or door chewed either.  I have been there well before crates were available.

Give me the crate anyday, I can go out with complete piece of mind over the safety of my puppy and my home with the knowledge that I am bringing up a well behaved and well adjusted dog.

Each to their own.......

Well I've always worked, and always had dogs. New puppies are confined to a large kitchen by means of a pet gate. They have room to play if they want - and yes sometimes they've chewed things. I find if you leave masses of toys and bones lying around this decreases the chances of them eating units, lino etc. Yes, they will pee on the floor - I'd rather they done that than be stuck in a crate being uncomfortable because they need to go. My latest youngster who is now almost two was confined to the kitchen till she was 5 months old. She had no accidents in the house while I was in from about 14 weeks old and stopped having accidents in the kitchen by about 4 months. After a month of coming home to a clean kitchen she was allowed access to the whole house with the rest of the dogs. Twice there were accidents in the livingroom - I think because she was probably playing more being with the other dogs - but it's easily cleaned and didn't hinder her house training at all :)

Now that's a good attitude chaumsong. :)

When I had two littermates (never again!) that were extremely destructive, we left them with old cardboard boxes and newspapers to chew and rip up when going out, (as well as toys etc of course) as that way they'd leave everything else alone. We figured we'd rather clean up bits of paper than have more damage done. :)

My kitchen and the dogs area outside at present resemble steptoe and sons junk yard, but it is keeping my 4 months old Myka from teething on my new budget kitchen.  The bitter spray has been applied regularly to the most likely/tempting chew sites.

AH but that takes time, thought and effort - and it's not as quick or foolproof as shutting a crate door! :rolleyes:

well said Isabel !- I do wonder though if this is a generational thing ? - it seems to me that there is a whole new generation of dog owners who find the prolonged use of crates much more acceptable - (perhaps more influenced by what happens in America ?) and with less time or inclination to train their youngsters - a crate being an 'instant' solution.

Yvonne

Think that you may have hit the nail on the head Yvonne??

I feel that crates are a useful tool to be used for a little time and when needed, not as a matter of routine.  But then I also feel the same about head collars and harnesses.  Used as a temporary tool for training they are fine, but I frequently see owners obliviously being dragged along the road or dog with their eyes being squished by a head collar and owners not even talking to the dog let alone trying to train them. :(  Another quick fix with no concern for the dog but convenient for the owner. :(

A puppy should not have to hold on when it needs to go. 

I have found that when I have gone out (even when I owned a crate) that after a certain age the pup would go longer without having accidents, but if I was gone too long then it would wet the floor, not hold on past endurance.

I have never had a problem with pups not being quickly house-trained despite being free in a large kitchen.  At first there would be an accident if I was gone an hour then more often than not there would not be one, and the time without accidents got longer with pups capabilities.

In the USA they even have a formula of how long a pup should be able to last per month of age and when house-training they make the puppy stay crated for x time.

Don't know about you but I find that sometimes pups need to go frequently and at other times less.  Depends on the weather, how much they have run about and drunk etc.

Don't know about you but I need to go about every two or three hours.  I don't even last 8 hours at night.

I have never had a problem with pups not being quickly house-trained despite being free in a large kitchen.  At first there would be an accident if I was gone an hour then more often than not there would not be one, and the time without accidents got longer with pups capabilities.

This is exactly my experience as well Barbara. (BTW been meaning to say, liked your letter in one of the dog papers the other week, the one about websites!) I'll even admit to not being very vigilant with pups -they have all got house trained as they have got older and their bladders have had more control. A bit like babies/toddlers!  My kitchen floor wipes clean, I don't have carpets anywhere, it's no problem. At 4 months old I never get any indoor accidents from my pup (including overnight) and I have put in very little effort -but of course she has been let out more regularly than every 4 hours or so..... The rule I've made is that if pup is asleep and somebody wakes her up, she has to go out at once. If the person who wakes her up isn't prepared to make the effort to let her out at once, they don't go into the kitchen so that she doesn't wake up. So if you want to get a drink or whatever, you let pup out, or you don't get anything. The rest of the family got used to it  quickly.

Ditto JG, I never used the crate to house train my pups and both were pretty reliable within 2 weeks. Puppies have accidents, it's part of having a puppy but we haven't had many. The crate I use at night is to provide a peaceful night's rest for my other dog. When the puppy woke up she was taken out right away not made to hold it. It's also huge car crate so she had plenty of room to move around.

I'm with you on learning to interact with their environment Goldmali. My dogs have free access to the house with my supervision. The first month contains a lot of toys for shoe swaps and lots of uh,uh not for dogs but both dogs learned by an early age what is and isn't for them. Other than some paper and some plastic plant pots I haven't had anything in my house destroyed.

> Other than some paper and some plastic plant pots I haven't had anything in my house destroyed

LOL - you are lucky then :D :D :D Tara would chew the door frame while I popped to the loo :D :D :D She had plenty of human input, but, unlike a lot of puppies, didn't sleep much during the day and so required constant distraction of play/training to stop the chewing :)

My next puppy will have a crate - I'll have a very clear conscience :) :) :)

Daisy

I've had the odd bit of skirting board chewed, a whole in a wall, and my oldest collie ate a huge hole in a leather sofa! I'll be completely honest though and say that these things happened when the dogs hadn't had as much attention as they should/ hadn't been walked for as long as normal or similar. With my youngest I would make sure she was physically and mentally tired before work - and left with masses of toys, chews and bones and she's never really done anything wrong.

And isn't it amazing what they DO learn Lori?! The big dogs sleep in the kitchen/dining room, and just outside it is the utility room. The utility room houses all the cat litter trays and so the dogs have to walk past them to go out the back door. At first, Kiara would run straight for them to find some yummy "food" -yuck! (And dangerous too, with the litter.) Now she knows she isn't allowed, but not only that, she knows the command "in" which means she is to go into the kitchen when I open the back door. But the funny thing is, she has somehow got it into her head that she must enter he kitchen BACKWARDS! (I probably inadvertedly clicked her at some point for doing that!) Following the command "in" she will back tail first into the kitchen, every time! :D :D

Following the command "in" she will back tail first into the kitchen, every time!  Oh blimey thats funny :D :D :D

Just for a bit more info on the US crate training method. I read an article on the net, by a very well respected(US) protection/guard dog breeder and trainer. He says, "No-one, not even my own family, approaches any of my dogs and strokes or talks to them. I alone feed, train and crate them. Without me, they are lost. They are caged most of the day, until I decide to take them out and they are gratefull, only to me."
Well, that just about says it all.

What a horrible attitude to have towards animals. :( What a control freak. That's psychologically unbalanced - potentially a very dangerous man.

That's really funny Marianne. :-D We had a dog at the club that did his send-away to bed backwards. Perhaps Kiara could follow in his footsteps. You have the making of a dancer though. :-D

I could have a whole team. :D Rio always walks through our legs and Dandy does his finish at heel the wrong way around.

I never had one until we got Spender (change of ownership) and he came with his very own crate. We had it up for the first few weeks to give him something familiar and boy he loved that crate.   Spends actually crate trained Sheba; it used to be a dash to see who could get into it first. I always left the door open though and they came and went as they pleased.

After that, it got banished to the garage.  It was up again for a couple of months when Spends was convalescing after his op and I think it's now in the garden shed.  I never shut the door, only when I had my eye off him, i.e. putting the washing out, nipping to the toilet, that sort of thing.

I think they are very handy for convalescing dogs and very young puppies; however, I personally don't like such restriction on movement, joints, limbs, muscles etc being cooped up in a small confined space, not to mention the psychological effects.  They have their uses in the right circumstances and only for very short periods of time IMO.