I'm having an 'interesting' discussion on another forum  where it appears that many of the posters leave their dog locked up in crates whilst they go to work - one was left for over 9 hours yesterday :rolleyes: - I seem to be the only one that thinks this is wrong ! - but since when has this practice been acceptable ? - I believe that in the states this has happened for some time but it looks as if many people over here are also IMO abusing the use of crates - there is even a girl who rescues unwanted dogs and keeps them crated as she has no kennels - she cannot understand why I am shocked -is it me - what do you all think ?

Yvonne

I think crates have their uses but not to confine a dog for that amount of time without been let out. However there are alot of people who crate dogs at night time but at least they are there in the house.

I have never used a crate and I am not sure whether we will use one with the next pup :)

Lucy
xx

Thats why I don't like cages at all, far too easy for people to abuse them :(  It now seems like an essential item to buy for a new puppy, which must lead some ignorant people to think thats its perfectly fine therefore to leave the dogs in there all day.

I didn't get one until I started taking more than one dog to shows,a dn foudn them invaluable when away from home.

Never used one in the house until I left one up after being used to extend puppy quarters, and it was never shut just used a a den and I found I coudl put things on top of it

My first dog was never crated but the puppy has been to let the big dog get some sleep at night and to protect her and him when I go out briefly. I never leave her in for more than an hour during the day and never more than once a day. She'll be 16 weeks Friday and I'm going to start leaving the crate door open at night now as well. If she lets the big guy sleep then she get's more freedom. (they're in our bedroom so I can monitor things)

If I go out for longer than an hour then the puppy goes in our conservatory (keeping in mind weather and heat conditions). She can get up to some naughtiness with the plants in there but it's pretty puppy-proof and I would rather have a little dirt on the floor than lock her up for hours. I would never leave a dog in a crate for hours.

It's not you Yvonne

I crate my dogs if I go out for a while(ie 30 minutes usually)this means I know they are safe, I very very occasionally leave them for longer(like when the car goes in for a service & I can't take them with me once a year & I have no one now to keep an eye on them)

I would never crate a dog for 9 hours(even overnight I get up & take puppies out every two/three hours)once they are house trained they are not crated at night

Being crated isn't like being kennelled where a dog has room to exercise & go to toilet if needed.

The only time I would find it acceptable was overnight with a pup or a dog after an operation on cage rest.

I am on my 7th puppy and am using a crate at night for the first time, after  I found that she took herself off to sleep in it from the time her litter mates left, so started closing the door at night.

Tried her out of it last night and did find that the dogs were up earlier, so she must ahve disturbed the others.  Few more weeks and it will be folded up and put away.

My puppy (12 weeks already!) has been crate trained and sleeps in there at night with the door closed.  This is mainly to prevent accidents - she won't toilet in her crate and waits until we let her out in the morning.

She also is locked in the crate while I'm at work.  At the moment this is for 3 hours, then I come home and let her out for a toilet break, then go back to work for another 2 hours.  Eventually, when her bladder can handle it, I was planning to leave her for just under 4.5 hours (the total time I'm at work).

I hadn't thought about how long she would be in the crate for.  Do you think 4.5 hours 5 days a week is too long?  She sleeps the entire time she's in the crate and I never force her to go in there.  She has a stuffed Kong in with her too, sometimes she eats it, sometimes she's too busy sleeping.

I agree that 9 hours is ridiculous, 4.5 is the longest I would ever leave her crated (except for overnight).  I was thinking we could start leaving the crate door open once she is fully housetrained.

No way do I find it acceptable for dogs to be crated for more than short periods (an hour or so ) whicle owners leave theri dogs in the day.

Would you think it acceptable to keep a baby in a cot all this time when not actually sleeping?

In which case it seems I have completely misunderstood the concept of crate training!

I thought the whole idea was that the dog stayed in the crate when you were unable to watch them to help them become housetrained more quickly.  Obviously I can't watch my dog while I'm at work, so I left her in the crate.

She still has accidents in the house occasionally when we are there, if we miss the signs, but she NEVER has accidents in the crate.  So I figured if I left her in the crate she wouldn't have accidents, which has turned out to be the case. 

Do you think I should just leave her loose in the kitchen and see what happens?  I reckon the result will be puddles every time I come home!  Also probably a chewed table and chairs, and she would probably have a go at the skirting board as well.  I tell her off for those things and distract her when I am present, but if I was at work she could do what she liked.

She is a watchdog breed and is used to being left, and she sleeps for many many hours in the day without moving.  She doesn't bark and she doesn't run around and she only needs short walks even as an adult.  So I just can't see that being left in a 12' by 12' kitchen is going to be that much different to being left in a 4' by 3' crate.  Especially if she's going to be sleeping most of the time.

Sorry but I wouldn't home a puppy if it was going to be crated for 4.5 hours, 5 days a week although I'm sure that others do. :(

>I just can't see that being left in a 12' by 12' kitchen is going to be that much different to being left in a 4' by 3' crate.

The difference is that a dog can move around much more in the larger space, which is better for them physically.

Crating doesn't stop the animal needing to relieve itself - it inhibits it from doing so, but that can cause damage if done repeatedly, apart from being very distressing (have you ever been stuck in a traffic jam when needing the loo?).

I wouldn't leave her loose in the kitchen - I'd put her crate (door open) into a penned-off area so she's not so confined for so long.

I would expect a 12 week old puppy to have house training accidents - if you are out in the day they also tend to take longer to get the concept and its all dependent on bladder control capabilities.

From what you say your pup is crated overnight - 8/9 hours? and 5 hours in the day. Thats a long time for a puppy to be restricted. I suspect you may have problems as she grows and starts to resent it. She's small now and they do sleep more at that age. I think I'd be getting her used to sleeping in the kitchen asap with access to the crate :)

Arrggh why does it have to be so complicated, just as I thought we were getting somewhere!

It is not possible to section off a part of our kitchen.  It is already sectioned off from the rest of the house by a stairgate.  I could leave the puppy loose in the kitchen, but would probably have problems with chewing/housetraining. 

We are also in the process of moving house, and I suspect things will be even worse there.  The new house has a 9' by 9' kitchen.  It has a door, so I could shut the pup in there while I was out and there'd be nothing to chew.  But there would not be room for her crate.

The living room is 22' by 13' and will have computer cables, cd cabinet, dining table, chairs, all sorts of chewables.  I was planning to leave her in there, in the crate until she could be trusted with all those things on her own.  Obviously this doesn't seem like a good idea any more. 

I've been worrying about this all morning, I feel like World's Worst Owner, even though the pup doesn't seem in the slightest bit bothered.  We are going to our first puppy training class tonight, I will speak to the trainer about it. 

In your new house the kitchen would be fine, and if you are worried about anything being chewed the block it off with something like hardboard.

I brought up three dogs from puppyhood before I evwer owneed a crate and so do thousands of people.

> anything being chewed the block it off with something like hardboard.

Wouldn't have been very practicable for us in a large kitchen and with Tara chewing everything including the units, floor, walls, door and door frames :D :D :D

Daisy

My dog she is a Houdini! Her first night I had ther in the same boarded off area I kept my BC pup in and she demolished it opened all our doors and found her way upstairs into our bed.

It took me over a week to train her that a rate was a lovely place to be before I could close the door for the night but even now she always loves the crate... also loves our bed!

Personally I think it's part of having a puppy - things are going to get chewed! I'd rather replace a bit of skirting, or re-plaster a patch of wall than leave a pup in a cage all day and all night.

Oh - we had plenty to replace :D :D A whole new kitchen :D :D :D

Daisy

Yes but then in  a large kitchen a puppy pen would have been a posibility, the poster says he newr kitchen is small.

If you don't want to use your kitchen, there are things called puppy pens that are larger for longer periods alone. They are big enough for their crate (door open), a water bowl and even a toilet area (litter tray with some grass in it or whatever surface you pup goes one normally). This would give your puppy enough room to roam about a bit more but still keep them safe.

Alicey, your not a bad owner but to the contary, you care. I left my Whippet pup Rubin for 3.5 and 4.5 hrs in his crate whilst I was at work, as I also have a 2 yr old Dobe bitch and what great games they could of had while the family were abscent????

The crate has just gone away last week. Rubin is 11 months old now and is just about trust worthy. I have no regrets though, that he's been kept safe and secure while crated. We havn't fallen out because he's trashed the house and he's not got into trouble with his Dobe big sister either. So all in all it's worked for us. He's such a cheerfull happy little chap and just a complete joy to have in our lives. He's all that we could of wished for. So surely if my crateing him was so bad for him, he wouldn't be the happiest dog in the world? But he is.

If you work and let's face it, we're talking about the real world now? You need to keep them and your belongings safe in your abscence don't you? As long as you monitor it and the pup is happy and sleeping, then what's the issue here? The poster was talking about adult dogs locked up for long hours and basically forgotten about. Different altogether.

I can't remember exactly how long Tara was left in her cage as a puppy. Certainly overnight and probably for up to 4 hours two mornings a week (from about 4 months, as the children were home all day before this). I have no problems with this at all - it gave me peace of mind when I was at work/in bed that the two dogs weren't having a go at each other and Tara, also, wasn't at liberty to chew the kitchen (which she did at every opportunity). She needed to be shut in the cage, during these hours, until she stopped being destructive at 12 months. Much better to have a safe puppy than a dead one :) I would not, however, have had a puppy if I worked longer hours/hadn't a senior school-aged child who was at home during holidays.

Tara (now aged 5) still sleeps in her cage (with door open) despite it being too small now - she does have a more comfortable bed :) :) It has done her no harm and she has become a perfectly behaved dog in the house who can be left (with Bramble) to have the run of the house without doing any harm to herself or the house :) :)

Daisy

My first dog would be alive now if I had used a crate.

I always crate mine at night just because t is a good habit and I can sleep knowing they are safe. In the day they can get to their crates and frequently like to sleep in them ..their little den. It's handy for going away to have the ct-ates and for stays at the vet they will at least feel comfortable  being in a cage.

I think in the States they have an even bigger unwanted dog problem then her..the crate lets full time working people have dogs without having their homes destroyed and the emphasis is on providing quality time with the dog when you are home. it stops dogs being pts for being destructive and developing anti social behaviours or because homes can't be found for them.  

Well I know breeders who crate the dogs 8 to 9 hours a day 5 days a week and when they are out at shows with the better exhibhits. It is very acceptable these day to do so.  Times change and when these ways are promoted new people only know those ways as correct and do it for the best intentions of the dog.

The bottom line is that no healthy, adult, housetrained dog should be crated for longer than the owner can last without needing the lavatory. Personally I can't last 9 hours during the day, so it would be cruel for me to expect a dog to. Obviously a puppy shouldn't be left anything like that long - an hour or two at the most.

I think that crates are brilliant and I wouldn't be without mine.  All my pups are trained to accept a crate as a den.  I use the crate as I used my playpen for my daughter, when I was not able for a short while, to keep an eye on her.  I also will use it for an hour during the day when I want the pup to sleep after feeding, training, playing etc - controlled sleep time. 

This is very different to crating for a regular 5 hours a day (as well as overnight) because if an owner (general not personal ;) ) is out of the house for this amount of time, then maybe collects a child from school, they still have chores to do, cleaning, cooking, gardening etc when the pup cannot be watched and will need to be kept safely.    Just my opinion, as I know that many do exactly that and more, but it's not the life that I would choose for any of my pups. :(

Well I know breeders who crate the dogs 8 to 9 hours a day 5 days a week and when they are out at shows with the better exhibhits. It is very acceptable these day to do so.
Acceptable to whom???????:rolleyes:

Acceptable to whom???????
... to the people who do it.  They must think it's okay.

A bit like p*edophiles then?  OK to them but not to the general public????? :) 

It used to be OK to shut bears in cages that they could just turn round in too..............

Not something that I would promote. :(

That's why veal crates were banned in this country. It's not kind.

well they get placed at Crufts each year and get a good price for their pups..maybe the KC should take on some responsibility...imo. But I don't think they mind...I think it is accepted as okay.

What's it got to do with the KC?

I'm refering to very respected KC registered show breeders. Say no more. Who am I! lol. It would be considered outspoken to be against these things..like the training methods..not liking them is too outspoken.. the UK dog tradition is very much each to their own.  We do with ours what we like and leave others in peace..unless they go way too far. You just can't tell other people with years of experience how to keep their dogs...and they would never listen without some KC requirments to enforce it.  If the KC refused to register pups unless certain standards were adhered to then it would be listened to.

That sounds like the typical and cherished British tradition of tolerance. ;) The KC won't act unless people complain to them - they aren't the police, and they don't make laws. Crating isn't illegal, so no laws are being broken.

..yep British tolerance..it is very sweet but how far should it be taken is another issue..I think the tradition is to go along with it until opinion swings in your favour and then changes can be pushed through.

The KC increase the value of pups by giving them status, by registration and they make money out of this too so in what way shouldn't it be their responsibility? I don't think 9 hours in a crate is actually seen as wrong providing the dog gets food and exercise and some company at other times.  Some people have dogs who fight so they crate them to be safe... I think that's why one breeder I know uses crates for most of her dogs.   As it is if you don't like it we don't buy pups from them..but you'd be amazed how much success at Crufts and other shows and the KC registrations makes people think it must be normal/acceptable practice. And if it is the practice of the breeder the new puppy owners will more than likely follow their advice and also crate the dogs so much.  

makes people think it must be normal practice.

Maybe to novices who don't know better but not to true dog people.  True dog folk have the breed's best interest at heart and are not just trophy humters. :(

It's not acceptable just some people choose to  believe it is the best for their dogs.

I don't think 9 hours in a crate is actually seen as wrong providing the dog gets food and exercise and some company at other times.  Some people have dogs who fight so they crate them to be safe... I think that's why one breeder I know uses crates for most of her dogs.

9 hours? NINE hours??  I think the problem is that people think that it's ok to have a dog because they want one, not because they can give one a decent life.  These are sometimes two completely different things!  IMO it is far kinder to rehome a dog where there's a problem with fighting.  If rehoming isn't possible I'd rather the dog was humanely PTS rather than spend 9 hours a day in a crate.  I take it that the 9 hours is in addition to being crated during the night too?  Most people sleep 8 hours so we're now talking SEVENTEEN hours out of every 24!!  How can ANYONE think that's acceptable?  I hate the fluffy bunny attitude that any life is better than no life at all because sometimes it just isn't. 

Debs

Oh how I agree, better no life than such a life.  why is prison seen as punishment for human beings, and then caging like this seen as an acceptable way to keep an animals whose nature is to cover large distances hunting a large territory, and not spending hours on end in a den.  Rabbits on the other hand spend many hours under ground so keeping them in hutches of adequate size cause them no great hardship, yet these days it is considered cruel not to have them out in a run for more space.

Lots of people do things to animals that they think is okay, and end up being prosecuted for it.

Crating dogs for long periods of time may be done by some but to say " It is very acceptable these day to do so." I would suggest is totally untrue and not wise to be suggested as OK to people asking for advice. :(

It is very acceptable these day to do so. 
sorry I will explain..people are not understanding the way in which I am meaning this! I am being a little cynical with this coment. I don't myself agrree to crate dogs for so long.. you just can't change the fact that it is done. 

I don't mean to be picky, but your irony didn't come across in your post - it sounded as though you were condoning the practice, and is why we're disagreeing with you. We don't want the unnamed thousands of people who read this site (but don't post) to get the impression that true dog people genuinely think it acceptable in the slightest. :)

That's why I clarify...but I'm using it to make a valid point...it is accepted as a modern way to keep dogs and it is not challenged or made clear to what level this is acceptable... and it sadly is clearly is seen as acceptable by those who do it...  I am referring to a highly reputable highly respected highly accomplished breeder with a long standing and deep involvement in the dog world..I am a total novice . What I've seen to me is wrong...but I am not the one with the high reputation nor experience nor influence. If I've seen it other people with more involvement must know it's going on... or is it like the harsh use of choke chains! Again I brought that up with the KC nd they were not intetested ..... maybe I'm the only one who comes across these things. Oh well I just want a nice quiet life where people treat their dogs nice and show new people nice ways. Anyway I know two dogs involved with that breeder were rehomed and I can only hope the others get more free time.

>it is accepted as a modern way to keep dogs and it is not challenged or made clear to what level this is acceptable.

I don't think it's considered an acceptable modern way at all - most people have either never heard of crates (apart from for use in the car) and would no more keep a dog in one for hours than fly to the moon. It's the vocal minority who try to say it's all right; unfortunately a lot of the information about crating is US-based where such practices sadly are more accepted. That's why it's vitally important that the we don't suggest for a moment that anyone else should try it. It's challenged a lot! Education starts with us! :)

It's the vocal minority who try to say it's all right; unfortunately a lot of the information about crating is US-based where such practices sadly are more accepted.
ummm...like neutering at 8 weeks old. US practices are very different..I mentioned earlier the trend to encourage long hours in crates to help reduce the unwanted dog population...I think that's where it comes from..it lets people have dogs who for practical reasons couldn't otherwise have them.  I don't think many Americans would be happy to use the crate all day though nor promote such a thing.

Crates are great for puppy training and for providing a safe den.. it seems common sense how to use them, but I think common sence is different for different people.  

>it lets people have dogs who for practical reasons couldn't otherwise have them

Personally I think that's one of the most damning things about them. Dog ownership is a privilege, not a right. If people can't provide a dog with the correct lifestyle then they shouldn't get one until they can. If that means the dog has to be crated for long hours (like those Romanian orphans in their cots) then I'd outlaw crates entirely.

But the vocal minority who promote these practices become defensive-aggressive whenever it's suggested that what they do is wrong. :rolleyes:

Yes and those same people give their dogs canine prozac when they can't cope with the restricted lifestyle or cause problems by objecting.

..ah but that's no worse than what they give their kids!  ;)

You mean it's as bad! ;)

..something like that! :D