We have a problem, it's been coming on for a while really.
Jack is now almost 18months and does junior handling training every week, also some shows. He is getting more and more difficult, today I think my daughter quit!
He gets into the hall and is very noisy, barking and pulling, his behaviour on the table is getting increasingly worse. Today the trainer asked her to leave the hall.....understandable as there were 2 or 3 three new juniors in. But I think that daughter has decided she cant cope any more as he gets worse not better.
Any advise PLEASE.
Karen
:rolleyes:

Is he  barking out of excitement, do you know? or some other reason? Often knowing the reason for it is half the battle! ;)

Lindsay
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That's the problem, I think it's 'naughty boy' stuff, he would like to be let off the lead to run free to play with all the people and the dogs.........People say 'scruff him,'  'if he was mine I know what I'd do I'd deck him' . I just wish I knew what was best.
Karen

Well for one I would NEVER ask a junior to leave the hall :( 

What are his problems on the table?

Have you considerd trying to give him something to calm him down such as rescue remedy?

What type of lead is he on?

What sort of bait/reward is used.

How much control does your daughter have over him?

Does he do the same with you?

Is he like this at shows aswell?

Also could you PM me the name of the trainer? and do they know anything about handling?

Sorry for all the questions just that with juniors it can be 10 X harder to train them with any dog let alone a "problem" (sorry can't think of a better word right now) dog.

That's the problem, I think it's 'naughty boy' stuff, he would like to be let off the lead to run free to play with all the people and the dogs.........People say 'scruff him,'  'if he was mine I know what I'd do I'd deck him' . I just wish I knew what was best

Sadly this kind of ridiculous advice doesn't shock me any more - but I'd so love to get hold of idiots who give advice like this and scruff and deck them!!

The reason they give advice like this is because they have nothing left in their training/canine understanding toolbox so they resort to something that sounds as if they know what they are talking about - dear me! :rolleyes:

It's hard to tell without seeing and you really need someone sensible and sympathetic on hand to help. Hope things get sorted - you may need some patience so gear up that sense of humour and don't get uptight like some of the people seem to!

Lindsay
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Lindsay,
Thank you so much....just knowing I am not wrong in doubting the rough housing ideas makes me feel better!
It also helps me to keep positive.
He is a terrier so I appreciate he needs persistence.
Karen :-)

Karen, I would never ever scruff a dog...it doesn't work....they just get fearfull or madder! You need to find what rocks his boat! Is it Ice queen that has good advise?? I agree with her...all the best, Dawn

>Is it Ice queen that has good advise?? I agree with her...

Thanks :)

Rox,
He is jumping and barking and generally misbehaving.

I have been using 'top spec calmer'.

He trains on his show lead.

His bait is varied from liver to cracker jacks.

He is small and physically she has complete control.

He is only slightly better with me.

She has handled 'well behaved dogs' daxies and a corgi and a pointer.

Thanks for this
Karen :-)

Hey.  Firstly does the 'top spec calmer' seem to be effective?  Or has he become immune to it at all?  Might be worth trying to change it or use a long term relase such as B+ (I think, can't remember off hand, came from holland and barret)

What type of lead is his show lead?  I have found dogs respond different to different leads, some checks, some half checks, slip lead etc etc etc might be worth tryiing a different one?

Is he interested in the bait?  Can it get his attention AND keep it?

Although she has phsical control over him does she have verbal control?  will he listen to her?  I can physically control my setters (wouldn't handle them if I could!) but I can also verbally control them.  There's a difference between stopping a dog doing something with voice and signals compared to picking them up and removing them :)  (although must admit can't pick a setter up easily!!!!!!)

If he is slightly better with you I would say he respects you more.  Any dog if they feel can get away with something then they will :)

Whats he like on his walks aswell?  is he just as excitable seeing other dogs then?

Without seeing the dog and handler interaction it's hard to really say how to go about it however I think the first step you need to take it calming him down.  Take him to the training classes but don't work him.  Sit down and watch, make him stay calm.  Lots of praise when calm and behaving, being corrected and calmed down when not.  If you can use the treats to get his attention back onto you (or your daughter, whoever is taking him)  and praise him.  It might also be worth getting him to obedience classes if possible to try and get him into control.  If your daughter does this it will also help her gain confidence with him and will make him realise she is there to praise and reward him for behaving :)

Ok I shall leave the post at that for now before I confuse myself, let alone you! :D

Ok one more thing...I would leave the table work out of the equation for a while and keep him on the floor untill he calms down abit.  Before he does any damage to himself more then anything.

It sounds awfully like a mixture of general terrier utter excitement and maybe perhaps he could even be bored??? So barking, playing and making his own amusement is more fun!

All dogs have their phases like this just keep working on the vocal commands as already said that really is the key, no matter how excited he gets a vocal command should really stop any sort of behaviour, practice quiet, stop or even a simple No command for the barking with treats and loads of fuss at home and then bring it to his training classes.

Agree that scruffing is pointless, perhaps he needs a break for a while and some personal one to one training or a smaller class may even help him.

Perhaps the treats/bait is tooooooo good and you could try not using it?

My terrier sounds exactly the same. I was first taught when I had her (my first dog and thought the trainer knew best (not for long mind)) I was told to scruff her and to "be dominant" over her but I never wanted to but did because I thought it was the only way (how I wish I hadn't).

Any way she barks  and gets over excited but instead of giving commands I just talk and stroke her very quietly and gentley. She soons settles and that is the point where training can start. A quiet and gentle massage really calms her and she is soon a one man's dog (well for a little while anyway!!!)

If she is missbehaving a soft command works better than a louder more commanding one.

It takes a few days to get the dog used to the new way of speaking if louder commands is what he is used to but Pesto is a much more responsive dog sinse I started.

HTH

All theses responses are so good to get, thanks...
I think we will give him a break and maybe take him to sit and watch.
We did have that bait problem making him bark for more, so had to let him know it didn't always work!
Obedience is a funny one, we took him along when a puppy but the trainers insisted on squirting him with water (he was a pushy barker then too) it, like the idea of scruffing etc doesn't sit well with me. It really did feel like she was waiting for his arrival bottle of water in hand...
He is good when out on walks, will ignore walkers and other dogs when he knows we have his favourite golf ball at the ready. (that is off lead)
I think he does need to respect her more, she is perhaps too gentle and sweet with him.
Karen :-)

Ok that obedience club is out the question then...Are there any others in your area?

With bait could you alternate it between bait and his fav golf ball?  Use that as a training aid as he loves it so much?

Personally I think your first aim is to calm him down.  Once his calmed down you can then work on ringcraft training him :)

Also I often find young girls can be very gentle and sweet with their dogs (well what girl wouldn't be except the obnoxioius little brats *she says whistling away trying to memeber what she was like...woops! :D )  But dogs soon learn who they have to respect and who they can have fun with (give them an inch and they'll take a mile etc etc) You have to make your daughter see she has to be firm....but fair (Don't worry, this doesn't included rough handling by any means.  There really is no need to scruff a dog.)

I had a very very vocal dog in my class that used to drive all the other owners, dogs and trainers mad.  I DID ask the handler to leave, for a few seconds and bring it back in. The poor owner was up and down like jack in the box and kept going out and coming in but the dog learned by cause and effect, make a noise and I get sent to Coventry, keep quiet and I can keep on doing stuff.

This was of course made perfectly clear to both the handler and the rest of the class with no question of them being not good enough but it demonstrated an effective training technique and how dogs learn.

That handler wrote a very nice piece about me in their annual breed book as I was the only person to believe that this could happen up to this point.  The dog is now 98% silent (even I am not that good)!

So take heart, it can be done if handled with sensitivity.

I identify with your obedience lass..all the ones I know are the same..even the nice ones will advise you to scruff the dog.. and water guns and cans to throw at barking dogs.

My last dog did excitement barking and when I talked to people he would bark and it was a real pain. With him I taught him speak and them quiet so he knew it was an action he could do deliberately and made the barking into a game so he could enjoy his voice. And because he knew the action he could be quiet on request...

And I did the exciting activities that made him bark like running and jumping  again and gain and again and the odd time he did it without barking rewarded him eventually it clicked but it did take ages and ages..I can't see a child doing so much and he was a BC who learn very well .

We kind of have this with our Aussie boy ..my son was doing well but really struggles now. In class the dog is so good but outside he is too distracted and excitable for my boy to cope with so I am not sure if he will stay interested for much longer. And as far as showing went it was a no go because my son could not get the dog to stand still and all the other kids seem to have little stuffed toys to show..the dogs are perfect and well trained!  My lad tried agility and lasted 5 mins before he was in tears because the dog was too unmanageable.  lol..I know the feeling..I hoped the dog would be better for him than for me! It's hard when your kid enjoys doing something but find the teen stage too much..I guess they get a taste of what it's like for their parents!

My dogs are way too vocal in agility ad it makes them screw up but I can't be bothered right now to start working on it because normally they are quiet. For you though it is worth training 'quiet' and focus.  

>the nice ones will advise you to scruff the dog.. and water guns and cans to throw at barking dogs.

Not all clubs advise this & ours advises training a quiet command & rewarding not barking

yep I'm referring to local ones here... it is probably a common problem ..certainly the water gun was prompted as a kind method... but I read it was not. My last dog was squirted just once when he was under  16 weeks old  and after that  he was always scared off the trainer. Never forgot.... never barked in class again though.....  but that's why I'd not take a dog with any issues to a random training club unless I totally knew it was going to actually be good for my dog...even if it means driving miles!  One pet class I go to I'd not go if my dogs actually needed any  training advice! Other people love it though.

I can't think where I got the idea to teach mine quiet ..it must be from a book. Most of what I know about dogs is from books .  I met a really good trainer from Rothwell I think it was and he taught me to teach 'focus' which also works with the excitement situations. 

Thanks for the contacts you sent me before btw... is there also a registry or list of some kind of inspected qualified dog trainers?  A trainer I knew from down south  mentioned she was qualified and on a list who use modern methods?

I think there is the APDT(?)& others but they aren't necessarily"qualified!I think you apply to join, they watch you training & assess you. I know one member of one of the registries who uses chokers etc on her own dogs & isn't the kindest of people either !

My friend isn't qualified other than by several decades of training dogs, some of which have been very difficult

that's strange. The club I trained at for the early parts of the good citz use kind fun training..well we never got taught how to train t any club we seem to be expected to know. If we had trouble we would be told. Anyway the trainer was so lovely and is really sweet but when she got a pup I was amazed she trained with jerk correction. The harshest old school type trainer I can think of is a really lovely kind caring person.

I will try your friend first..just getting sorted with a new agility club so I will get going with that then see about fixing up with obedience training. It will be great to be in the hands of an expert because I've taken these two as far as I can without new ideas and some expert direction. My dogs will so love having good training!  A the moment I'm a bit sunk in working them if I don't have a fist full of liver cake! Also I give praise too much but not effectively.. so it becomes too cheap. 

The APDT have completely revised their assessment methods now (one of the problems with assessing was that the assessors found it hard to assess to the same standard as they were usually only watching one class).

See here for more info if anyone's interested, I'm impressed I must say :) .

http://www.apdt.co.uk/membership.htm

Lindsay
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I DID ask the handler to leave, for a few seconds and bring it back in. The poor owner was up and down like jack in the box and kept going out and coming in but the dog learned by cause and effect, make a noise and I get sent to Coventry, keep quiet and I can keep on doing stuff.

This was of course made perfectly clear to both the handler and the rest of the class with no question of them being not good enough but it demonstrated an effective training technique and how dogs learn.

This can work very well as Tohme's said, as long as the dog is actually pretty much enjoying the class. If it hates the class then it will prefer to go out - that's why it's important to understand why the dog is barking ;)

Lindsay
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