We are looking for a larger breed dog having lost our GSD 18 months ago.  We have always admired the Belgian Shepherds but know little about them.  I have tracked down a couple of breeders and hope to glean more information from them but I am also wondering if anyone here owns, or has experience of them and can tell me more.  Many thanks.

Louise

I am a past owner, and will just say they are nothing like the GSD, and if you tried to treat them like a GSD you would have problems.

There are several breed experts on this site who I am sure will give you more info.

my OH has a gron, Shes lovely, has recall issues! lovely around the house though!

I own a Terv Belgian Shepherd :)

Agree, they are nothing really like GSDs, depending on the individual they are very sensitive (mentally and physically) but also can be strong minded (so the owner needs a sense of humour! :D).

They want to be with you all the time, whatever you are doing, so if getting a pup you have to ensure you teach "happy alone time" with stuffed kongs etc so they accept the owner going out. I start this off behind a childgate and then gradually extend it to me going into the garden, then out to the car, etc until over time they accept quite happily me going out for a few hours.

They need ongoing active socialisation but do beware this is done correctly - overdone ( ie forcing it a bit) can produce a nervous pup as can lack of socialisation. Ideally give plenty of opportunities for the Belgian to experience new things and give them time to accept this.

Can go through a barky phase towards people as adolescents. My girl was extremely well socialised, much better than my first 2, who were rather guardy (but big softies to the family! ) and she loves the postie and is friendly to people.

Best if you follow modern training methods, they love clicker training :)

LIke most breeds there are problems in the breed so do check on these and talk to the breeders about them if you do go for one...

Lindsay
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Thanks very much.  You are definitely pointing to things I had picked up in my research.  And clicker training was something we planned with our next dog.  I guess, apart from loving the look of the Terv Belgian Shepherd, we were looking for a dog that didn't need quite the same handling as a GSD.  I am not describing what I mean because I simply can't really find the right words - but guess I mean GSDs being such a handful very often.  Also we were so spoilt with our last GSD - she was loved by all who knew her and was a very special girl.  Can I ask you one specific question Linday - would you have another??

Louise

Can I ask you one specific question Linday - would you have another??

Oh yes very definitely - Banya is my third :)

I had 2 together before which was wonderful. If I stay fit and healthy I'd love to have another, maybe even from rescue this time.

A few more thoughts - can be noise sensitive so not that good with fireworks. The breeder of mine used fireworks tapes and my girls wasn't bothered for
about 2 years until someone near us used loud banger types, from then on she got worried, but, we found the DAP diffuser really helped. Overall, due to her careful
socialisation, she's actually pretty confident :)

One thing I have found is that, with Banya in particular, they can be extremely reactive to movement, of course it's in their genes but when for instance i took her to agility she barked an awful lot at moving dogs, and folk playing with their dogs with toys - this last out of frustration. I'd say they tend to be not necessarily a dog who will be plain sailing, but you get lots of love and an interesting life with one!!! :D Of course many do  agility, etc and I've dabbled in working trials with her.

I find she will do anything for a kong on a rope which we keep as her fav. toy.

Another thing - just while I think - is that Banya is on Hills prescription diet as she had colitis and she can't manage other dog foods. I've never had this problem before and she can eat raw marrow bones, but not really much else.

Any more questions do ask - we will try to help: also there are other Belgian  owners on here but I think they are either moving house or haven't been on for a while :)

Lindsay
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I would only say that they aren't as physically challenging due to less weight, but more challenging mentally than a GSD.

I'm coming in super late here (I have Malinois), but just to say a lot of people that have gone from GSD to BSD (sprecifically Malinois) have been very surprised at how miuh harder work the BSD is in comparison. :) That even includes police dog handlers that have had to be re-trained to cope with the different type of dog.

True Goldmali, some have bought "ready made dogs" over from the continent and have had to send them back.  Usually a combination of dogs that are too high for most of the handlers here and old fashioned and archaic "training" methods still used by some police forces.

Fortunately there are a few which are more enlightened, forces and handlers that is................

I did DD at Crufts and was twice approached by people who worked not with police dogs, but with the police force and so saw Malinois on a regular basis. (Have also had another policeman visit me who said much the same.) Both were really surprised a meeting Malinois they could touch without seeing aggression, and one person said the rule at work is nobody gives the Malinois any affection or is kind to them as it will ruin them -and I have a friend who has had the same experience. A policeman told her he was not allowed to touch his own dog. It really makes you wonder about SOME of the police forces and what on earth they are doing. :( Yet others, of course, are brilliant.

A friend of mine now has two Mals adult bitch, who is scrummy & mugs me in the obedience ring & a gorgeous puppy dog(no she isn't going to start breeding for money)She & her hubby also have GSDs & he does Schutzhund & they both used to show in breed.

Her Mal bitch isn't overly friendly to most people(as per diving all over them)but she is very confident & self assured & she likes to go to people & greet them in a most civilised way & for some reason really liked me from our first meeting & decided I was the best thing since sliced bread & out of character mugs me at every opportunity(& I love it BTW)! Her dog puppy is really friendly & was giving me high fives the first time I met him. I do not think they are for first time dog areas & need correctly handling & no I don't think they are as easy as GSDs. I love their look & I definitely like her bitches attitude for work. Her nose work is superb, but then her owner is a very experienced handler(she did obedience with her show GSDs)Not a breed for me at this time but who knows ?

The Terv bitch that won the bitch Ob Championships ths year is related I think to the breed BOB & best puppy.

>A policeman told her he was not allowed to touch his own dog.

Perhaps his force has been visited by a certain dog guru, she has written in her books you shouldn't cuddle or stroke your dogs as it "invades their personal space" ;-)

Lindsay, you have just described my golden retriever

Date 30.03.07 23:01 BST
Lindsay, you have just described my golden retriever 

LOL are you sure he's a golden? :P

Lindsay
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LOL are you sure he's a golden

That's what the breeder said

Hi - we have owned Belgians for over 20 years. As Lindsay says they are a sensitive breed who can be ruined by a heavy handed approach. They do need something to do and a fair bit of excercise - a bored Belgian is a recipe for dissaster LOL - and they can be quite reactive to sounds although I have found that they are not 'yappers' - barking only if there is a reason to. They do have a tendency to guard their home and are intensely loyal with their family but aloof with strangers - having said that individual dogs can vary wildly - I currently have two bitches that greet any vistors by jumping on their laps for a cuddle and one male who takes himself off upstairs for a good sulk untill they have gone , two other males who bark until we have accepted any strangers and are then fine and one bitch who is a PAT dog and is the most placid laid back dog I have EVER met ( however she is NOT typical of a Belgian temperament :)).

The great asset of the breed is their versatility -  BSD can turn their paws to any doggy activity - they are incredibly bright and easy to train and excell in agility, obedience,working trials,Cani-cross,dancing with dogs and of course showing. Many many pups from show lines also work - the kennel that produced this years Crufts BOB Terv also produced this years Crufts bitch obedience ticket winner..

A well bred Belgian is also breathtakingly beautiful with a unique floating movement but there are some poorly bred ones out there and some dodgy temperaments too - contact the breed clubs -NORBEL and the BSDA of GB for recommended breeders and look at their websites for lots of other information.....and do go along to visit some ...we have our Championship show on August 4th where you will see lots of dogs and meet breeders and other folk involved in the breed -and you are very welcome to come and meet our bunch if you are anywhere near South Lincolnshire  .
a good book to start with is 'the Belgian shepherd Dog by Debbie Fleminng - you will find loads of info and lots tips and advice there too. 
Lastly a word of warning - the Malinois variety has some VERY dodgy dogs being bred from 'working' lines - these look and behave nothing like the show type of Malinois and can be incredibly difficult to live with.

let me know if I can help in any other way - as you can probably tell this breed is my PASSION :D :D :D

Yvonne

Thanks Lindsay and Yvonne. I had already read quite a bit and your comments have made us decide against a Belgian.  I just don't think they would fit well with wirehaired dachshunds - simply not the right mix. We had already identified a GSD breeder (and by luck just up the road from us) who has a litter due next week.  From past experience she usually has a large litter so despite some reservations already being held, we have  a pretty good chance of getting one.  But thanks for all your comments - it really does help to be given such advice. 
Louise

I would suggest you go here...it is the most brilliant place if you want information on the Belgians...from Belgie owners far and wide.
http://bbs.sitstay.com/postlist.php?Cat=6,9&Board=BelgianShepherds
Another thing to watch out for (which this board can help with) is seizures. Make sure you ask specifically about this.

Cheers Julie

Don't mind me saying Julie, but I'd not want to recommend that site - doesn't take long for someone to recommend a prong collar for a belgian on there

Lindsay
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Lindsay,
I've been on the board since I got my guy nearly 5 years ago. And while I have to admit I don't read every post...I've not seen people recommending prong collars apart from the odd occasion.  I guess my mind sort of glosses over that part as I go for the stories rather than the advice. I will have to keep a better eye out ...so thanks for mentioning it....I can't imagine any one with a wit about dogs would use such collars.

Cheers
Julie

Probably just the one nutter then, that's good to hear :)

Lindsay
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Glad we've helped - best to know what you are letting yourselves in for :P

Lots of luck with your new German pup :)

Lindsay
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Hi Dachshie Lad - My little mini-wire (Muffin) was 10 years old when I took on Zak (rescue long-haired GSD). Zak was 6 months old & very boisterous. I gave Zak a home because he was desperate, even though I knew I would have a few problems. To begin with I thought they would never be able to be left together. Zak was so rough as he had spent 4 months in a pen with 2 staffies for company. I work part-time, so Muffin was always put in his cage whenever the 2 were left alone. I have to say though once Zak grew up & calmed down they got on brilliantly. Muffin obviously never played with Zak, he was past that. Zak now has a little terrier X more his own age & they hardly ever stop playing. Everyone we met used to comment on little & large! On our walks Muffin always stayed one step (at least) behind Zak so that Zak couldn't surprise him from behind. I miss Muffin terribly & so does my daughter. He adored her! & he was a pleasure to own. God bless him.

There are also some NOT dodgy dogs being bred from working lines by responsible and reputable breeders.  However, like working bred labs, collies and GSD they are NOT for pet owners but those who actually wish to compete with them in the tasks for which they were bred.  Just because a BSD is working bred does not mean it has a dodgy temperament; personally I have met more show bred BSD with dodgy temperaments than working ones.....................

Oooh - treading on thin ice there  - this is a breed where is is absolutely no need to have either pure working or showing lines - they can truly be the ultimate 'all rounders' - unfortunately there are some Malinois breeders who don't seem to care about the original temperament of the breed as long as the dogs are highly reactive and their biting power is 'AWSOME' ( a word used a lot on their websites :rolleyes: ). These dogs are frankly dangerous and it takes just one incident for our wonderful breed to become tarred with the same brush as the Rotties/Staffies/ Pitbull etc i.e the latest must have for the 'hard men' out there.

those who actually wish to compete with them in the tasks for which they were bred. 

Belgians were originally bred as sheep herders - their temperament is very much like that of a Border Collie. They were NEVER bred originally as atttack or defense dogs - yet that is what many of these working bred Malinois seem to be specifically bred now to do.
Our rescue people constantly have to pick up the pieces when these dogs are sold to family homes or become unmanageable even  for their working owners - and guess who has the terrible job of having to have these dogs PTS - certainly not the original breeders !

The Bonvivant and Sabrefield kennels of Malinois have produced dogs which are excelling in Agility/obedience/working trials/in the police force and as mountain rescue dogs - oh yes AND Championship quality show dogs - THATS what people should be looking for in a well bred Belgian Shepherd - it is irresponsible to be deliberately breeding dogs for their 'awsome ' biting power or attacking instincts - and the resulting dogs bear no relation either mentally or physically to a true BSD.

Yvonne

Unfortunately there are irresponsible breeders in ALL breeds who do not care what they breed from and who they sell to.

The same arguments apply to GSD or other pastoral or working breeds.
 
As BSD and GSD etc in this country must also demonstrate a good temperament in order to compete in Schutzhund and Working Trials, which are NOT just a test of "awesome" biting power but a true all round test of obedience, nosework and agility (and manwork IF people wish to participate in this in WT) the best will survive.

Of course I agree with you that there should not be a split between show and working but unfortunately there is in GSD, BSD, labs, spaniels and BC etc etc etc

That is the fault of our KC system..........

The split is ONLY evident in those dogs which are specifically bred for Schutzhund work - in every other canine sporting or working activity show bred Belgians are used very successfully - Mary Ray's Tervueren is a wonderful working bitch ...and she has also won a res CC in the show ring - this years Crufts obedience winner ( Bitch) was a show bred BSD - another from the same kennel won the dog CC and BOB on the same day. Last year a team of show bred Belgians won the world agility championships....I could go on. My point is that it is because Shutzhund requires characteristics which are not readily found in a typical  Belgian -THEY have changed the breed or rather the variety - (they ONLY seem to use Malinois yet all four varieties should have the same characteristics).-the dogs bred to do this type of work are unsuitable for almost anything else - the total opposite of what our versatile breed should be like.

My show dogs can work ...can their working dogs show ?

Yvonne

Actually the split is evident in dogs which are specifically show bred.  No show bred BSD has won tickets in Working Trials I believe in either TD or PD or achieved a Schutzhund 3.  Certainly on the continent the predominant variety for working is the Malinois, you rarely see any of the other 3 in IPO, Schutzhund, Ringsport or the KNPV.

But  Thomé don't forget there have been SEVERAL show bred qualified police dog Malinois here -7 alone (an entire litter!) last year, bred from the litter sister of the breed's first Champion bitch. Also certainly in other countries there are dogs that are highly qualified both at shows and working trials -such as last year's Crufts BOB from Sweden who works for the army, has a lot of qualifications in working trials, tracking, obedience, and several breed Champion titles from several countries. Oh and she's 75 % *UK* show breeding. :) (The other 25 also being show breeding.) So the point is it CAN be done. Is it more a case of nobody with show bred Malis here not being interested enough to go all the way in working trials?

Probably, there are very few BSD of ANY type in Working Trials.  The Malinois are currently the most popular and there are a number of up and coming youngsters just starting their careers this year hopefully to join Ike the first BSD to win a CC and a RCC in WT AND be qualified CDex UDex WDex TDex PDex.  There have been a couple of Tervs with a TDex in the past but very few others get above the lower stakes.  Few Groans either.  Personally I have always fancied a Laekenois but never liked any that I saw until I saw a couple of stunners at Crufts this year.

Oh yes weren't they lovely! NEVER seen any as nice looking as those that came from Holland and Belgium. I was very impressed.

I was just checking the BSD 2004 yearbook out of interest, and there are at a rough count approx. 25 BSD (mostly Tervueren) who have gained WD Open or above, and one who gained his PD ex (Kyann without Wings of Minka).

Of course the Yearbook info does go back a bit.

I would gather most of these are show bred, although the Minka, Kyann, Delator names come up a fair bit. I'm not sure if those affixes count as working bred, they probably had some American breeding in there? Some of the US breeding (Tervs etc that is, not Malis) would possibly count as working? I'm not sure. I iknow my first Terv had a US sire and she was always on the go, never stopped, as I'd imagine the true working bred dogs are; and my boy had a Mal with Schutzhund 3 as his grandaddy :D so perhaps the earlier BSDs had a tad more working lines in there somewhere? Just musing.

Lindsay
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