some of the replies i have had to my posts have got me thinking (which is a good thing) and i bought my girl because she was from healthy lines i admit i knew she was not a show dog (her breeder was completely honest and open with me).
So what is most important for you when you think about breeding, the health of any potential puppies or what you think would be of top show quality.
I know all dogs are health tested, but in certain breeds what is preferred in the show ring could possibly be detrimental to the dogs general health.
So is it health or type?

sorry if i have not made myself clear, and i know obviously that puppies are bred for both, but if you had to choose what would you do, as most of you appear to show, i am just interested.

Showing and health should come hand in hand,  there is no point in breeding a dog with health issues as just say it had HD then it wouldnt move properly in the ring and therefore wouldnt be placed.  The problem with breeding purely for health and not taking into account type is that you move away from what the breed should actually look like, which again is pointless.

I dont breed or show (anymore)  will get back to the ring one day.

But if I bred , the most important thing to me would be Health /Temprement/ Type,  , i cant see how you can seperate all 3,  if I did not have the three, If I only had one or 2 of these things , I would not breed, just my opinion!!

There are occasionally exceptional circumstances when type must be put at a lower priority for instance the Dandie Dinmont Breed Club has requested that anyone with a healthy bitch breed consider breeding her whatever her show qualities.  Generally though I think all aspects should be considered equally and most breeds have a large enough gene pool not to justify compromising in any area.

Both one should not exclude the other, and breed standards all have the paragraph in them about any fault that affects the health and wellbeing of the dog should be penalised accordingly.

ok
so  breeding for health.temperant and the breed stander is one issue
plus the dog/bitch has done well in showing.working or other events. but carries the wronge colour gene.which is only one fault.pass all the other tests.good temperant.show quailty,

what would you all do.

use a dog that as a health problem or a bad temperant ect over a dog that has a colour gene fault.???????

BRAINLESS this is not dircet to you, just open forum.

what would you all do. use a dog that as a health problem or a bad temperant ect over a dog that has a colour gene fault.???????

I'd use a dog that had neither.  There's never a situation where there's only one or two stud dogs to choose from.  If it means spending vast amounts of money travelling abroad to make sure you  get the right dog for your bitch then so be it.  If I had to choose between two undesirable dogs - I wouldn't have the litter!

Debs

Health or type? Both are equally important if you're not just churning out random generic 'dogs'. A breed has to look like the breed or there's no point in breeding them - there are plenty of healthy mongrels needing homes. Equally they must be healthy, both physically and mentally, or once again, there's no point.

I wouldn't breed from a non-typical animal however 'healthy', nor would I breed from a stunningly handsome individual oozing with breed type if it wasn't mentally and physically sound.

I read once that breeding is like a three-legged stool, involving health, temperament and type. If you don't have all three equally balanced  you have a stool that falls over.

For me, personally, I would first look around the show rings, see which dog I liked the look of most, whether he 'suited' the type I prefer. Then I would look at his pedigree, checking that there's no serious health issues within that. It doesn't really help looking at what he 'throws out' because if that b*tch isn't the same type as mine then you don't see it as you would if she was (if you see what I mean) but you get a rough idea as to what his offspring would look like. I would also like to ask around see what he is like temperament wise. If all the right boxes are ticked, then I would hope that the breeder, having also checked my girl out, would allow me to use him :)
I won't breed from my first girl because of  health issues, even though it wouldn't stop others from doing the same.

None of the traits mentioned are mutually exclusive and you should ALWAYS breed from a dog with good health, temperament and type traits! If they don't have these traits then the answer is simple...DON'T breed from them!! ;)

what i meant was that  (as we all know) some breeds have suffered with their health (in the past) IMO for the sake of type (i know that things have/are being done to rectify this) but if there were people still wanting puppies (to show or as pets) of the type that may have the health problems which would you breed.
I agree that they are all "type" with just slight differences perhaps.
Just a theoretical question.

I'd always aim high, not low.

I wouldn't breed from any dog with health problems.

And what I meant was...I wouldn't breed from a dog with health, type or temperament problems! There is no excuse, there are ALWAYS dogs available that are sound in all respects! Sometimes you might have to wait...so what...breeding dogs isn't an exact science...I have waited 3 years for my new puppy bitch!

There are SO many people out there just wanting a pet and no being concerned with looks, that then when their pup grows up and does NOT look like others of their breed are seriously disappointed. I have been told this so many times by people I meet during walks. "I wnated a Cavalier but just as a pet, didn't expect he would get this BIG". "I wanted a Golden Retriever but one that looks like yours, not like this" etc.  Similar to people who want a Cocker, go ahead and buy a Working bred one and get very surprised when it does not grow up to look like their image of a Cocker. If looks didn't matter at all people might just as well get a mongrel.There are very, very few breeds with such small numbers that you'd ever be able to justify breeding from a bitch that did not have both health AND looks AND temperament.

I wouldn't breed from a dog with any health problems either.  The temperament is a very important thing to me, and if he/she is of a good standard in the breed that is important also.  I think it is very hard to tell a dogs temperament at a show and this has to be checked in lots of different circumstances.  My boy was snapped at 3 times while at crufts, he didn't respond but it made me wonder what is out there at that show aswell. 
Yvonne

Both must go hand in hand.  I look for temperament, health and type and if my bitch failed in any one of these areas, then she would be in a pet home with her pedigree endorsed so that her pups couldn't be registered.

To be fair, that is in a numerically good sized breed but even if I was involved with a smaller numbered breed, I can see no point in mating a healthy bitch who isn't a good representative of the breed.  If everyone did that, then in a few generations the breed would be unrecognisable. :(

You bought your girl from an honest breeder with a healthy line, which is admirable, and she is a brilliant pet, I'm sure.  But IMO, that's the way that she should have stayed and to mate her is irresponsible.  I'm sure that her breeder has produced many puppies who are healthy but not good enough representatives of the breed to be mated, or she would have kept your bitch and mated her for her next generation herself. :(

I have a beautiful blue merle Aussie bitch, bred by us.    Her conformation is excellent, she did a bit of winning as a pup, her hip score is good (3.2) she comes from excellent, clean healthy lines - but I am not breeding from her.   Why?   Because I am not satisfied with her temperament.    We really looked into lines before breeding this litter, and there is absolutely no sign of iffy temperament in either line - but she is just too unpredictable.    It would worry me far more, to think that any of her offspring could inherit this trait, than to think "no".

To me, temperament is paramount, then health and breed standard.    And as Val says, if I couldn't be happy on all counts, then I just don't breed.

Margot

top judges have seen her and to be honest have told me her good and bad points, but every dog has a flaw or fault however small the perfect dog that IS the breed standard would be very hard to find, isnt that what breeders strive to breed, too the standard.
my bitch is a good example of the breed,yes she does have a couple of faults but the dog that has been chosen is good in these areas to perhaps try to rectify her faults (which are not major), but her health and temperament are superb, i have been told (by a judge and breeder of my breed)that i have a good foundation bitch, and we should get some good puppies.
i was asking a general question not aimed at myself but in general.

Yes, I think we all gave general answers too! I certainly wasn't questioning your bitch or breeding habits! I was relating what I think about it all! :)

Working quality & ability AND health too.  Both are intrinsically linked.   A dog with poor hips won't last a day in the field let alone a lifetime.

Ditto Dawn, (newfie) I too was just answering in my own opinion, on what I would do.

but every dog has a flaw or fault however small the perfect dog that IS the breed standard would be very hard to find, isnt that what breeders strive to breed, too the standard.
my bitch is a good example of the breed,yes she does have a couple of faults

Absolutely right. :)  But when you also say "i admit i knew she was not a show dog (her breeder was completely honest and open with me)." she must have more than a minor fault if it excludes her from the ring.

A good foundation bitch is one who is a good example of the breed not one that can't hold its own in the ring. :)  It should be sound in body, mind and be of good type too. :)

i was told i could show her, as she is what she is, but she perhaps is not top show quality, the faults she has  are not hereditary.
I have bred to a show dog in the hopes i may have at least one show quality puppy, and if it has its mothers health and the sires conformation i will be chuffed to bits.
Is it not the case that if the bitch has a fault, the right dog could correct that?, as long as breeders do their research most conformation faults can be bred out?
I only ask as i have many years experience with horses both showing and raising youngstock, and with the horse we find the stallion to correct the mares weaknesses, some of the mares i have seen have been far less than perfect examples, but when put to right stallion have produced foals which have been county champions and been shown and placed at the highest level.
I am new to breeding but i am genuinely trying to learn, i know horses are obviously a different animal altogether, but is the principle the same?
i know from my experience that you can put the best to the best and still not get anything quality, so is it a case of doing your homework and going with lines rather than looks ?

the faults she has  are not hereditary
I'd be interested to know what faults are not hereditary?  :)

Is it not the case that if the bitch has a fault, the right dog could correct that?,
In simple terms then that can sound right BUT if a specific fault has been carried for more than one generation, then it will take more than a good stud dog to correct it in one generation.  Also many qualities and faults are recessive and so just because a stud dog is OK in one department, if any of his ancestors carry the same fault, then it will continue.  An extensive knowledge of the ancestors on both sides can be more relevant in some cases than the parents.

If you hope to produce one show potential puppy, then chances are that it will not breed on quality because its siblings were mediocre.  And I would expect an even litter of quality pups.  Why shouldn't pet owners have a dog to be proud of too instead a second rate puppy?

To start with anything other than the best bitch that you can buy, especially with limited knowledge of the breed lines, is not what I would recommend to anyone seriously trying to benefit their breed. :(

I am not trying to justify what i have done after all "whats done is done" but i am thinking in the long term, if we do not have puppies of the quality i would like (i have expert help here) i would obviously still keep one as a pet, but buy a better quality dog in to show, and not breed my girl again. If good things happen, and i breed her again i would have her hipscored, and any breeding stock hipscored, and take advice on results. I would like (as you all do) to breed the best that i can..............im getting a bit to old to be running round the ring with horses, my daughter has taken over that now and shes welcome to it (LOL)

but buy a better quality dog in to show

Excellent idea! :D  The show ring is a great place to learn about a breed, the dogs that have gone before and may be in your dog's pedigree, qualities and faults that particular lines/kennels are know for etc. :)

I sincerely would like to know what faults you have been told are not hereditary? :)

i do expect an even litter but what are the chances they will all be show quality.
as regard to lines, the dog owner knows my girls lines very well as she has handled and shown some of the dogs in my girls lines through the years, and has knowledge of others (having been involved with showing/breeding this breed for forty years + both with her parents and now her children).
conformation faults can vary from dog to dog even in the same litter. a grandson of the the bitch i bred my first litter from won best puppy at his breed show on sunday (even though the sire was not a perfect example) i know about the breed here and advised on the lines to use and it worked all 3 puppies were quality, but the pup which won was the one i advised them to keep, i would have loved him myself, but already having one male dog i couldnt.
I have moved to a  different breed and fully intend to continue doing my homework but the help i am getting is wonderful.
her ears are not perfect, i believe that they can be taped, i may be wrong (getting older memory failure) and slightly more angulation of the stifle would be preferred.
I do appreciate the replies, after all i came here to learn.

ClaireyS said 'Showing and health should come hand in hand,  there is no point in breeding a dog with health issues as just say it had HD then it wouldnt move properly in the ring and therefore wouldnt be placed.'

Can I just point out that a dog with HD could actually move correctly - HD, isn't necessarily noticable by movement alone.  There are a lot of dogs shown at the moment with varying degrees of HD that do very well in the show ring, some even made up to Champions.  It's not a good thing, but it happens.

Lisa

I knew someone would say that, I was using it as an example of the fact that its not desireable to show a dog with health problems, of course there is always exceptions but it isnt something we want to encourage and certainly shouldnt be bred from even if they are a champion.

Although as even Malcolm Willis (eminent geneticist) says, there's more to a dog than a pair of hips.

i spoke to malcolm willis about 5 year ago he stated to me dont throw the baby out with the bath water,???????

there no perfect dog out there.

"It's not a good thing, but it happens"  To be honest I can't see how it is a bad thing if the dog is typical and sound in movement then that is how it has to be judged. 

The dog with the bad hips just shouldn't be bred from.

This is exactly why we health test, as we now realise with the progress of science and genetics that what you see is only on the surface.

Equally with working ability.  some dogs are so stoic and driven that they can work well despite appalling conformational faults, or even health issues.

It is exactly why we throw up our hands in dismay when a Novice with a nice bitch thinks all they need do is mate her to the current top champion.

This si why breeding is an Art.  Show success, Health Tests, Working ability, Temperament etc are all tools to aid us in selection.  Good bit of luck needs to be thrown in that all the variables blend in the way we hope.

her ears are not perfect, i believe that they can be taped, i may be wrong (getting older memory failure) and slightly more angulation of the stifle would be preferred.

Don't worry, I have an increasing number of senior moments too! :D

Sure ears can be taped to cosmetically make them look right - but they are genetically wrong. :)  Using that as an example, you need to choose a dog not only with good ears himself, but with siblings and generations of good ears behind him to stand a chance of sorting this fault. :)

And a lack in bend of stifle in a serious conformation fault IMO and if one of the pups born has better angulation, then the problem is likely to appear again in the next generation, which it is why it's so important to know as much as possible about not only about your dog's ancestors but also their siblings too if possible to understand what qualities and faults you are likely to produce.

It sounds promising that a breeder/exhibitor with 40 years of experience should be able to guide you in the right direction, although I wouldn't encourage a pet owner whose bitch had a poor back end and incorrect ears to mate their bitch. :(  I do know some exhibitors who've been in my breed for only 5 years and have got enormous experience because they have listened to the right people, and others who have been involved for 20 years and have learned very little because they think that they know it all - no names you understand! ;) :D

There again, one of the top winners of my breed was rather too straight in stifle but threw some fantastic pups with good angulation and who themselves have produced correctly angulated offspring. As long as the mate is carefully chosen according to both genotype and phenotype then progress can be made.

I do agree 100% that taping incorrect ears to effectively disguise the fault is a mistake and verges on the unethical.

"I do agree 100% that taping incorrect ears to effectively disguise the fault is a mistake and verges on the unethical"

Have to agree strongly, as you will get in the nest what the dog really is and not what it appears to be.  This I expect is the reason for the KC rules about not allowing any act or operation that alters the natural conformation of the dog.

I would call taping ears such an act.

one of the top winners of my breed was rather too straight in stifle

All about degree eh?  And he must have been excellent in other areas to have done so well. :)

Not necassarily! Depends whether they judge the dog or owner right??? :D

she does have good points honest, it was said to me that she has plenty of good points her front is spot on apparently you dont see too many dogs in my breed with the correct length of neck (infact that is the first comment i received about her)although other comments were made on her good points, her ears are in the correct position they just fall differently, And with my other breed (EBT) a lot of people tape ears, luckily my EBT has perfect ears in fact (if it hadnt been for her accident she was expected to do well in the ring, as did her sire) but dependant on health tests and the right stud dog she may well throw out quality pups (if i decide to breed from her).

If her points are generally good why don't you show her?  That way you are likely to get honest opinions of her from a variety of judges.

I agree, try her at some open shows - my bitch is generally not of Champ show quality (though she has beaten some Crufts qualifiers, so we're going to try her at that level this summer) but has done very well at open level. I have reluctantly decided not to mate my boy - he is a superb specimen, great temperament unless another stud dog comes up and has a go, and is healthy himself - but he has close relatives with health problems, so it's not worth the risk. :-( I think you do need all three in some quantity - type, health, temperament, but the idea of using a dog with the top amount of whatever the bitch's least good quality is may also be good. :-)