i am new to this forum, but have been reading for a long time. If anyone can give me any help i would appreciate it.
I have just mated my girl (a week ago) she had a full check up at the vets for breeding (although i do not have the certificate as my vets are not on the list) and she is in perfect health, stud dog owner is very excited about this litter as lines are very compatible, my girl was looked over by a top judge and breeder of my breed and all is well.
My girl is 2 years old and we mated on 10th and 12th day. Yesterday morning she was sick and off her food, fine in the afternoon, no discharge or temperature. Could this be morning sickness? i have only bred one litter before 3 years ago (different breed) and this never happened. My girl is a maiden and today she is fine and eat her breakfast as normal.
I do have help from experienced breeders, both in my breed and with different breeds, and i have asked their opinion and all said not to worry morning sickness, but i thought it iis a bit early being just over a week from mating, any experience with this people?
sorry for the long email, i just want you to know that this mating has been planned for many months and the upmost care and consideration has gone into it.

I would just say am health check at the Vets is not what most people mean by health checks.  What is meant is Hip Scoring through the BVA/Kennel Club scheme, Eye testing for signs of hereditary eye disease where appropriate, BAER hearing tests in breeds where deafness is an issue etc etc.

If you have been having advice from experienced breeders in the breed who belong to the breed clubs, work and or show their dogs then you would know about these and I assume these have also been done?

If not may I suggest that the eye and hearing tests are carried out asap,a and the Hip are scored as soon as possible after the litter are born (shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, but better than nothing).

Puppy buyers are becoming more educated and increasingly litigious and you will be on a sticky wicket if a pup develops a problem that parents haven't been tested for.

The peopel to advise you from now ofn are the expereinced breeders that have been metoring you.  They will ahveadvised you of the traits of thew dogs in both pedigrees and waht faults and virtues these caried, and this will help you with your selections of pups.

with my breed it is just a health assessment, there are no specific tests, she really is in the best possible health for breeding and is a very healthy girl.
I have done all that is possible to produce healthy happy pups, and my mentors (within the breed) are happy that all has been done, i asked a question about possible morning sickness, i had no intention about starting a debate about health tests, i and people in my breed that know my girl and her lines are happy that all that could be done has been, and i have no worries about possible health problems, i know from experience that problems can and do happen with breeding with any breed , and i would not want to breed pups with any problems.
I appreciate your concern, but please save your concern for the many puppies that are born without the care and attention i have put into the breeding of my girl.

Bless you, you ask a simple question and then get a lecture!!!!! As regards morning sickness my bitch had it when mated,once she was pregnant the other time a phantom, so I think it is a hormone thing, I have had her mated again this time and the scan is tuesday and I cant wait to find out, she has had just one bout of morning sickness this time. I wish you lots of luck and hope you have got your girl in whelp.

All breeds can get HD and really all dogs should be hip scored.  What breed do you have?

As an information point many people that come onto the fora just to read up on things would be under the false impression that their bitches just need a once over by the local vet to be 'health tested' we see such posts all the time.

I understand what you're saying Barbara, but not all breeds have HD as an inherant problem.  There's never been any Pharaoh Hounds with HD problems (there's so few, everyone knows eachother and we're an open and honest lot really) if there was ever any problems we'd hear about it.  No dogs have ever shown any signs of it in the UK.  When people on here say you have to do whatever health tests your breed club recommend... ours doesn't recommend anyway!  There were a few cases of patella sub-luxation a good few years ago so the club started up a screening program and it turned out to be only from one lot of lines mixed in a certain way.  Everything since then (in the 80s) has tested clear.  I know that we're not a normal breed in this way - maybe that's why I  like Pharaohs - they're extraordinarilly healthy as far as todays pedigree dogs go :d

I'm just saying there are breeds out there WITHOUT every disease under the sun thank goodness :)

Debs

That is a fair point, but on the other hand very few dogs in my breed have ever shown physical signs of HD yet when X-rayed the scores have been as high as 61.

Beagles are not usually scored yet there have been some awful scores and perhaps people have become complacent.

Ridgebacks for example seem to be a breed that have a lot of really excellent scores, I have seen a fair number of Zeros and under five in the BRS, yet there have been a few awful ones.

Siberians as a breed have excellent hip status, but I suspect scoring ensures they stay that way.

In a numerically small breed like yours and mine it only takes one dog to be well used who has poor hips and the hall house of cards falls down.

I know it would be silly if every breed was tested for every conceivable thing, but hips and eyes are basics, and easy to get done.

It is always wise to approach a post such as this with caution and advise the best possible practice for the majority of breeds, as you say Debs there are very few Pharoahs out there so the chances of the OP owning one are slim, although possible.(You may know more than the rest of us :D  )Then there is the question of the silent reader that will cherry pick the advice they want to hear :rolleyes: so Brianless' first reply was to my mind balanced friendly and informative unlike some of the more evangelical like responses that could have been solicited and may yet follow. Maybe also addressing the original question would have made the advice better recieved ;)

I did point out that the people in the breed having already advised thsi as normal were the best people to advise.  Some quirks can be very breed specific.  whelping dates for example, In soem it is rare that they go over 63 days usually whelping several days earlier.  In my breed I would be worrying if a bitch went more than a day over (but they do tend to stand late), unless she had been mated over a long period or particulary early in the cycle to average.

Yes Barbara and I will confess I missed the implication of that and so maybe the OP did aswell :) .

I see your point Gillian - and no, if it were a Pharaoh I'd know about it! :d  As there are so few litters of Pharaohs born each year (normally between 1 and 3 in the UK!) we all know who's planning a litter anyway, which means that people with long waiting lists can pass enquiries on to people who may have had a few potential owners drop out.  As I said - I know my breed is in the minority - heaven help us if they ever become popular!

And yes, Barbara's response was right down the line as far as I'm concerned.  I was just pointing out that not all breed clubs advise the same ;) which is why research into your breed and it's potential health problems is crucial.

Debs

the health screening for my breed has no pass or fail anyway, and believe me if i, my vet, stud dog owner, or the championship judge that has seen her had said that she was unsuitable due to her health, temperament or confirmation i would not have mated her.
She is a pet and that is what she bought as, infact i had a 100% health guarantee on my girl she is from genetic problem free lines (which is why i bought her).
After reading on here on and off for 3 years some of the posts have shocked me with the slapdash approach people have to breeding, yes i am new to breeding but 12 months of solid work has gone into this with regard to lines and health.

Just because your bitch has no clinical signs of HD doesn't mean she is HD free, I had a BC that even the vet who x rayed him coudn't believe he had such bad hips. i never bred from him & luckily he never had any problems with his hips. Likewise my Cavaliers there is at this time no requiement to MRI scan for SHM & my boy has no outward signs, but he does have it & without health testing could have been the producer of affected puppies.

I would never breed off any bitch of any breed without hip scoring even if I owned a Pharoh Hound, the beagle breeders though they were in a position of having no hip problems yet when two of the top winning youngsters were scored they had terrible hips !

There is only one breed that has never had a dog screened for HD which has had HD is the pure racing greyhound ! They did a study of several thousand racing greyhounds as part of a HD study & none were found to have any signs of HD in their X rays

i took advice from the breed council, other breeders and my vet about the possible tests, and i am happy that she is in perfect health, as a rule my breed do not cope with anaesthetic, and i have not heard of my breed being hipscored (although im not saying it has not been done).
I also have another girl (different breed) which i bought to show, sadly a badly broken leg as a puppy stopped that dream, but i plan to breed a litter from her too later this year or early next, as her breeder advised me too as her lines are excellent (and she is a superb example of her breed) there are several health tests this breed should have and all will be done (as were her parents) and if good results she will be mated to a health tested dog.
I am not irresponsible, but i asked a question about possible morning sickness.
I am not breeding mongrels nor am i breeding from a young bitch, or using the first dog i have seen, and yes i do have experienced people to advise, but from reading on here i thought that i would be given sound advice from a range of people with all breeds and many years of experience.

Mabel - what is your other breed?    We had this situation with Thor (Australian Shepherd) who broke his hip and had it pinned - about four weeks before the appointment at Cambridge to have his hips scored.   Sadly, because of the pinning, we couldn't have his hip scored as it had been "altered".   It might have been good - his siblings and parents had excellent scores - it might not have been - and we've never used him at stud because our breed does require that only hip scored dogs should be used in breeding.    Hope you don't have the same situation.

Regards

Margot

My girl was sick 3 days after mating once and then 2 days after that! Then no more, so I guess a week is fine and is most probably just morning sickness. I'm glad that you have plenty of back up from your breed to help with pregnancy.  Health issues are always important and testing should always be pointed out as you know yourself many simply go into breeding without the knowledge so all points are valuable.

Hope that all goes well with your girls pregnancy and there are plenty of us here to help with any questions you have in the future. :-)

thankyou Carrington you have helped put my mind at rest as i do desperately want a litter from Mabel, she goes 12 months between seasons and i would not want a litter from her as an older bitch, the safety of my girl is my top priority as she is 2 and a half now.

Sadly only 16 of your breed have been scored, and th scores are nothing to be complacent abpout ranging from 10 as the lowest to 88.  With scores like that I would want to be knowing how representative they are.

but what breed are we talking about? the suspense is killing me!

I've put my detective hat on (complete with magnifying glass) and worked out the breed then looked at their breed councils website. As the original poster said they don't even mention hip scoring but  have a health testing scheme - which involves a check up at the vets just to make sure that breeding stock are healthy, which seems to be what the original poster has had done. I reckon we should let her off with it now :)

Yes I agree the poster has done what little the breed clubs expect.  I just feel the breed are being very head in the sand by not expecting hip scoring, but I suppose they have plenty of other problems to worry about, so maybe hips are not a priority at this time.

actually I thought that too - it's not a breed that I think of as healthy I'm afraid- but then I know little about them.

you may have worked out the breed but can you let those of us that havent know what breed of dog this is that has no genetic health problems. why the big secret. thank you in anticipation

TOS I assume, the origianl poster has just mated her bitch, therefore to name the breed could be considered advertising :)

im sorry whats TOS

Terms of Service -breeds shouldn't be mentioned when matings and or whelpings are as it can be classed as advertising the litter

TOS stands for Terms of Service - the standards you agree to when you sign up to Champdogs!   If you don't adhere to them Admin comes down on you like a ton of bricks - and anything that can seem to be advertising of puppies is the bigest NO-NO of them all!!

Another NO-NO is anything that appears to be a "look at my site/my puppies" post!   So beware!!!! :D :D :D

Margot

Another NO-NO is anything that appears to be a "look at my site/my puppies" post!   So beware!!!!  



You're right Margot !!!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Gabrielle x

there is no secret,  i did buy my girl from very healthy parents (her sire was 10 and a half when she was born and still bouncing around like 2 year old) i knew she was specifically bred for  health (and so not a show dog) which is why i bought her, my girls breeder had been disillusioned with the health of some of the dogs she saw at shows and therefore began breeding dogs with none of the problems (known to plague this breed) for over 15 years now, and my girl can and does outrun my EBT, jump stair gates and go up and down stairs like a shot.

I didnt say that the breed have no genetic health problems, just that i was given a guarantee with my girl, her breeder also said that if at any time in the future i could not keep her, the breeder would repay me the purchase price spay my girl and rehome her through the breed rescue, a very responsible breeder wouldnt you agree.

i can understand were your breeder was coming from. there are so many breeds of dogs that have been breed and breed to try and produce a particular size, shape, speed ect that the health of the breed has been forgotten. resulting in many breeds becoming unhealth when if you looked back at their history they were working dogs of the healthiest. it is so sad that his has been allowed to happen. to the detrement of the dogs

Yes but there is no way you can move away from these health issues in just 15 years or a couple of generations. 

You can select to gradually move away from the worst exaggerations but from that to a healthy breed is a long haul.

Giving birth naturally would be one of the first things.

yes my girl is from self whelping lines and was one of 6 pups all born naturally, but she did stress that sometimes her dogs as in many dogs of any breed need a c-section.
My last litter was an AB she had been scanned as 5/7 pups she gave birth to 5 normally then struggled so we had a section (and a spay at my request)for the remaining  pups 1 of which was born dead, but the remaining 12 live pups all thrived.
I will take advice on whether to let her try naturally (if pregnant) or do an elective section from my vet and breeders.

Sorry but until all dogs are hipscored no breed can say that they don't have a problem.  My import has the second worst score in this country but he's still running, jumping around etc with no problems.  There are some dogs in the country that more terribly and have fantastic hipscores.  You cannot tell what a dogs hips are like until they are scored!

A northern Spanish vet told me that my breed has no problems with the northern dogs because they are bred properly but a dog from the north if hipscored would by the sounds of things had the worst score in the country although he again moves wonderfully.

Until every breed is hipscored I will never agree that there's no problem!

Wow just read the part stating what hipscores have appeared in your breed, sorry but the highest is more than double the highest in my breed and if only a few have been done and already there's a score of 88 I would say that your breed has a very big problem!!!

after seeing some of my breed, both before and after i got my girl, i can honestly state that they couldnt walk far (nothing to do with hips, more breathing) and i most certainly did not want a dog like that, i have never stated that my girls hips are perfect, but in a breed like mine, where some have many other problems, more "dangerous/life threatening"  problems (IMO) hips may be a problem but not THE most important one, after all if a dog cannot breathe it cannot survive.
And yes i have mated my girl, and i have done all that i could to make sure i have a healthy litter, and to be honest if i thought for one moment i would be shot down in flames because i only have had her tested to the breed councils standard, i would never have posted for advice.
I have read posts on here through the years where people have had bitches accidently mated too young, or with no health tests at all or by a litter mate or father or the neighbours dog,  i have put a lot of time and effort into this and i am satisfied with all that has been done, there are so many posts on here asking people to contact their breed council which is what i did, and i have been taking advice from people with many years experience of my breed, i was not asking for an opinion on the health of my girl just morning sickness, a simple question deserves a simple answer.

Well said mabel05,
I have to completely agree with you I had the same thing done to me when I posted a question I took advise from my breed club but it wasn't enough, too many on this forum pick up small snippets from your posts and do try to belittle you.
I said I wouldn't post on this forum again but couldn't resist backing you up.

Oh dear Sadie didn't you get your bitches as pets & mate them both at the same time ? For a first time breeder not a wise thing to do

Did the breed club advise you to mate two pet bitches ? Not what I would expect of the Westie Clubs at all as they are a breed that is overbred by puppy farmers

from what ive read no one is belittling anyone the posts have branched away from mabel05's original question and onto hipscoring in general. I dont think the posts were directed at anyone in particular - just discussion.

I know people on here dont always say things prettied up as we would like but one thing they all have in common is they are passionate about dogs and only want the best for them.

Sorry, Sadie, but there is absolutely NO correlation between your situation and Mabel's.   

Mabel HAS taken advice of her breed council and HAS had her dog health-tested.

You bought two pet puppies, and were then persuaded by a groomer :rolleyes: that you should breed from them.  

We gave you advice - you chose not to take it.   You then posted asking "how does one become a reputable breeder" - and were told.

Time after time, I have repeated that this is not a "fluffy-wuffy-puppy board".   It is called CHAMPDOGS because that is what we who do breed responsibily strive to do - to breed the absolute best puppies possible.   If that is not possible with what we have - then we don't breed!

Margot