I have a question for you, I have a springer, black and white, am about to breed from her, this will be her second litter, We have a lovely stud but he is also black and white. My bitches parentage is both b/w, but ideally i would like a mixed litter. If his parents were a mix would there be a good chance of us having any liver and white pups? Hope this makes sense.

I don't know too much about the genetics, but when I mated my black/white springer to a liver/white dog all 13 pups were black/white ;) As you are using b/w to b/w I wouldn't expect liver/white pups, I'm afraid.

I'm now in Large Munsterlanders and we do get the ocassional brown one in a litter, but it comes down to which gene the parents are carrying. I hope someone can come with an answer for you. :)

If you really want to know what colour pups you are likely to have then I would recommend having their coat colours tested, this is a simple process you just collect DNA samples via swabs and send them off to be analysed.  See HealthGene's web site http://healthgene.com/canine/C128.asp.

It takes around 10 -12 working days for the results which are then emailed or faxed to you and about a month later they also send you a certificate which states the dogs name / owners name and the results of the test.

You can send the samples via air mail and if you email them about a week later they will confirm that your samples have arrived. It costs $80 I haven't found anywhere in the UK that offers this service but maybe one day it will be available here in the UK.

If Springers are anything like English Setters, then anything with black is dominant, so b&w to b&w will only ever produce b&w pups.

I think Goldmali is very knowledgable regarding genetics.  Unfortunately I think she is a bit busy at the moment but there was a thread recently where she explained how the most unexpected results can occur.

You need to speak to someone who is an expert in your breed

Edited:  Just found this link which might be of interest http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=796904;hl=golden%20black;hlm=and#pid796904  (sorry can't do shortened links :rolleyes: :D )

As I understand it black is dominant.  The blacks may be geneticaly black or carrying liver, but mated to black would expect only black unless both carry liver, as you need two liver genes.

for exmple pure black mated to lvier will give all black offspring half carrying one liver gene.

If the ones carrying Liver are mated to genetic blacks they can only produce black.  If mated to Liver then you would get both colours, and fewer to another black carrying liver..

Hi Clair,

Are your dogs working or show bred ? If they are working lines I am able to give you the number of a guy that will be able to advise you.

Hi,
Genetic's well, no- one could really predict 100 % the out come.
There could always be a throw back for many generations.
It is the same in humans, how many times you see in a family with two dark
headed parents and grandparents, then a bright red head crop up from no-where.
It happens all the time. This is were nature takes over.
No man will ever stop it.
Regards
Denese

It can only appear if it is there (carried) even if not expressed for generations, can't appear from nowhere unless it is a very rare spontaneous mutation. 

Many traits are recessive, especially the ones we are trying to breed out like disease genes (as no-one in their right minds breeds from affected animals).  Carriers cannot be determined unless they produce a visible effect in the offspring by happening to be paired with a mate with the same gene.

When the genes are passed on to offspring they will each pass on one of the pair of genes they have to each pup.

So for brown and black you have B for Black and b for brown.  To get brown you need two b genes.

So in the posters litter using two blacks you can only get liver if both are Bb, and then only one in four are likely to be liver.  When the B and B genes pair you will get black pups, when B pairs with b you will get black pups carrying liver, and when the b and b pair you will get liver.

So only sure way to get liver is to mate liver to liver, or known liver carriers to a liver or a known Carrier.

my friend had a B&W springer and mated her with a B&W dog - only 2 in the litter and both LIVER & WHITE! her husband wasn't impressed as wanted B&W!

go to vetgen.com they have a gentice colour chart i use them to dna my flatcoated retrievers.

They must have both been Bb (carrying liver), statistically he should ahve only had one in foru liver, but we all Know that only works out over large numbers, the same as wehn you get a litter all of one sex or the other when the statistics say 50/50.

My Orange Roan cocker came from two lines of Blues going back 5 generations.  Her poor breeder was so shocked and thought she was an albino when she popped out :)  Two Orange Roans, however, can only produce Orange.  That's about as much as I know about colour genes as I was always happy to take pot luck :)

When my Dobe had her litter she produced 3 browns and 5 blacks (both parents black).

Then both parents were carrying the gene for brown. :)

My last two litters were mixed black and liver; liver bitch mated to two different black dogs. The livers in the last litter were a surprise because the dog's closest liver ancestor was 4 generations back - the gene had been passed down as a recessive all the way. :)

Many thanks to everyone, some interesting views. last time she, b/w, was mated to l/w and had 3 of each colour so she must have l/w gene, as one of his parents was also l/w it will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

Well you know then that she carries liver and white, he of course may or may not.  If he does statistically you may get Liver and white.

Must admit I prefer the black and white Springers.  It is interesting though that I never see black and white pure bred springers of the working type only liver, only seeing black and white ones at shows.

Surely he must carry the liver if one of his parents was liver?  But statistics are one thing - what you actually get in your litter can be something else :)  (only what is there of course, though!!)

Hope you get what you want
Carina

Nope as the liver parent will have had two genes B for black and b for liver.  If he inherited two B's one from both parents then he would be pure black.

An interesting thread for me because  I have never learned about colour genetics as colour would be at the very bottom of my list, almost irrelevant in fact, with health, temperament and type being at the top. :)

Fortunately we only have one colour in our breed and apart from white or sooty markings or poor colour it is irrelevant. 

You look at type and soundness first and pretty colour is icing on the cake, and poor colour will only hold a dog back if it is really bad or a deciding factor between two dogs of equal merit, same as whether a dog is in or out of coat..

(This is a response to your previous post! - it's slipped down a bit :) )

Don't think I agree with you there, Barbara.  If one of the black boy's parents was liver, but he is black himself, since black is dominant to liver, he must be Bb, because the liver parent must have been bb (or it would have been black) so it can only have contributed a b gene.

oops yes I got thinking he was black but out of liver parentage not liver himself.  S

Much easier to use a chart with shaded boxes for each colour gene.

So much easier having one accepted colour with only white or sooty markings to worry about.

We've got the liver gene in Ridgebacks (known as the liver nose) - but I've never had one nor have any of my boys ever produced one  :)

Ooh bugger.

In the USA they have bred from some rather offbeat lines some red Elkhounds that are liver nosed and the overall effect is sort of apricot.

Some claim the gene came from some UK imports to USA, but I feel this is unlikely as there is no record of such pups appearing here.  Even if it were kept quiet and the pups destroyed in a small breed like ours people would have known, and my friend who has been in the breed since the early fifties is adamant there have been one.

On the other hand this colouration does appear in sibes, and as the lines where it has appeared in USA have some not so clever (puppy farm) lines behind I wonder if it is the influence of another breed, especially as it does not appear in Scandinavian lines.

Liver nose is correct in Ridgebacks - though the amber eye that goes with it can take a bit of getting used to.  A good liver is attractive, but my preference is a black nose.   Don't think I'd fancy a liver Elkhound!!  It does sound like the influence of another breed, doesn't it.  Have you got a link to a red Elkhound, Barbara - curiousity is getting the better of me.  I'll check back in later - got to go out now. 
Carina

Well our first family dog was a working x show lines bred Springer, Louis.    He was black & white as was his dam (Working lines) but the sire was liver & white and all show lines (Hawkhill, Teesview, Wollburn etc.), the whole litter Louis was in was black & white.    I prefer the black & whites too, liver can go wishy washy in the sun and the eye colour in the b&w's is always darker.  I know in the breed book by Dorothy Moorland-Hooper she recommends the use of a b&w ESS in a liver & white line to enrichen the liver colour & darken eyes up.

Don't think that's quite right, sorry. Any Springer with one liver parent will definitely carry the liver gene since that liver parent has to be bb (if it was Bb, it wouldn't be liver). Even if the liver parent was mated to a dominant black (BB), all the progeny would be Bb, ie carriers of the liver gene.

Yep I got my Bb's and bb's mixed up as of course the carriers are Bb.

I've seen a b/w working Springer in my park, very bouncy but handsome! I know tricolour Cavaliers can produce blenheims which is I guess similar to b/w and l/w. :-)