A friend of mine (well aquaintance really) told me the story about when he had his first and last litter a few months ago.
He bought a pedigree bitch from a breeder with her full knowledge that he already had an intact dog, several years later he decided to have a litter from her and all went well, she had 6 pups, when he tried to get the pedigrees registered the kennel club wrote to say that the bitch had endorsements on her to prevent her from breeding.

He rang the breeder and she said she would remove the endorsement and charge whatever the KC charged her. She then rang to say that it was £250!!!
He didn't believe her so rang the KC who told him they don't charge anything, but seeing as he had sold the pups by this time he could be sued for advertising and selling pups that were supposed to have a KC Registration, he reluctantly paid this unscrupulous woman her blood money.

The bitch has now been spayed and he has learnt a very expensive lesson.

Lynne

Thats what I call greed!

well how much did he sell the pups for? I happen to think endorsements are there for a reason and if the breeder had to put herself out why shouldnt she be compensated for her trouble.
I wouldnt have lifted the endorsement for any reason at all as obviouly it was put on for a reason.
Did he pay a lot of money for the bitch? Was he aware of the endorsement? It all sounds iffy to me

Hi I place breeding restrictions on my puppies, to ensure that they don't end up being used by people for breeding who don't really know what they are doing. But as a breeder you must put it in writting and get the purchaser of the puppy to sign it to say that they understand that the pup can't be bred from, otherwise if you don't do that the KC can and will lift the restriction for the new owner without the breeders permission.

We had endoresments on our bitch. When we wanted to breed with her we went back to the original owner for a stud and he lifted the endorsement. We were advised to have the same endorsements on our pups. We have made this clear to all new owners. If in time they want to use their dog and we feel everything is well then there will be no problem.

Admittedly he only paid pet price for the bitch, but was never told about the endorsement at any time, I agree with endorsements in principle, but why remove it after the bitch had her litter and even then only for a price.

This man who bred with his dogs apparantly only did so, so she could have her spayed (I know, old wives tale)

Since all this happened, the original breeder has been in touch and after seeing her is gutted that she has now been spayed.

Don't know whether she has seen her or her offspring to make her realise she made a mistake in selling her as pet quality and maybe wanted to show her for her owners?

Sorry, I don't really know the full story, people only tend to give you the headlines.

Lynne

On re-reading this, I'm wondering if it is possible to lift an endorsement after the puos are born. I may be wrong, but thought it had to be done before the bitch was mated or dog used?

Hi We have Hungarian Vizsla's and we always put endorsments on all of our pups
We lift the endorsments when we know that the person will not abuse the breed.
What I don't agree with, with the lifting of the endorsments is that when you lift them
the bitch can be bred over and over again without any knoledge to ourselves,
I think that the lifting should be for each litter that the bitch has not for perminant as it is now.
Christine

Welcome to the forum Christine :-)

Surely, if you have lifted the endorsement, then aren't you saying that the bitch is good enough to breed from in your opinion? If you want total control of your puppies for the whole of their lives, do you give them away? Incidently, do you go back to the breeder of your bitch everytime you wish to breed? Just curious :-)

Those were my thoughts as well Leigh. Whilst I do put an endorsement on my puppies which I will then lift if the bitch is good enough to breed from I do accept that the person who has bought the puppy has the right to decide things for themselves. I would like to hope that by that time I have established such a good relationship with the new owner that they will discuss things with me, but it has to be their decision. If you want to keep total control of the puppies you breed you have to keep the puppies yourself!

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Joan those are my thoughts and views exactly.

I belong to a breed list that is mostly US based, and am amazed at the enforceable restrictive contracts that some buyers have with breeders.

After all it is THEIR dog.

If you want that much breeding control then there is still the option of 'breeding terms' where I beleive that the bitch or dog is given to the new owner, or sold at a far reduced amount, and becomes their outright property once the 'Terms' have been completed. Even then the bitch is then theirs, to breed from later how they wish.

Mattie, is the price relevant? Even if you agree with a difference between 'pet' and 'show' pups - which I don't - many 'pet pups have gone on to be big winners. That's the luck of the draw. I endorse all of my pups, including the one(s) I intend to keep myself (after all, who knows what might happen to me). The new owner gets a written signed and countersigned explanation of the endorsements with a detailed list of the circumstances which will have to be fulfilled befire the 'progeny not for registration' is lifted, and a statement that the 'not for export' will never be lifted except under the most exceptional circumstances. Charging to lift the endorement may be a 'polite' way of saying "no", but even so, in blunt language, its a lie, and one that is hardly going to impprove the breeder's reputation. As for puting yourself out to lift an endorsement, all it takes is a brief letter to the KC and a stamp.

Sharon what I meant was if he sold the pups for quite a bit of money he could afford to pay the breeder to lift the endorsement.
I dont agree with what she did but I dont blame her either after all if she had sold her for breeding she would have asked an appropriate price.
Some years ago I let a retired lady have one of my bitches she was very small and I felt not suitable to show or breed from she assured me she would be a Pet only,this nice quiet Lady then went on to have four litters from this bitch and I was damned annoyed about it she paid a token payment of £50 for her from me and was selling the pups at three hundred each, and bragged to all that was how she had her fancy foreign holidays now its not the money Im talking about here as anyone who knows me knows I would help anyone,the Bitch ended up with a last litter at 8yrs and she was so tiny had two sections.
I would be very happy if pedigree dogs were so expensive that most people couldnt afford them I'm sick and tired of the continual flow of unwanted Labradors through the rescue,and bitches who are blatantly poor in health etc.. being bred from because they have a pedigree.
We have also had a situation with rescue we try to make sure all bitches are spayed but this was a male the adopter had the cheek to ring up and say he had been used at stud and could he get the papers or he would have to give the stud money back !! Its not printable what i told him to do ! and we threatened to take the dog back.
I say again if the pedigree was endorsed then it was for a reason and they were lucky she lifted it for money or not because i wouldnt have not for a gold pig.
We can agree to differ on this if you like :)

Mattie, I see what you're saying, but I've sold perfectly good pups for a fraction of the normal price because the people in question for one reason or another didn't have the ready cash at the time, but I had good reason to know that they'd give the dog a first rate home. If one of those pups went on to do well at show/work - and one did - I'd be as pleased as punch. Someone from Champdogs has offered me a puppy from their next litter, and say that they will not accept any payment (something we will argue about when the time comes :-)).

Personally I'm horrified by the rapid escalation of puppy prices in some breeds. The price goes up exponentially, rapidly followed by the registrations, the 'newbies', the physical/genetic problems, the poor specimens and the rescue situation, then the breed becomes 'commercial'. I've seen it happen in one breed, and am watching it in another.

I appreciate that we are coming at this from very different directions, so definitely lets agree to differ on this one :-).

A breeder, now sadly deceased pur endorsement on a bitch pup sold to someone who had a male.

When she was two years old she had a frantic call that they had had an accident and she had whelped to the dog, and KC wouldn't register. Ours is no0t a breed with a ready market for unregistered stock, and she felt sorry for him and lifted the endorsement.

Several people told her she was a fool to do so, and that she should insist that one or other of the parents be neutered first.

Guess what they had another accident a while later!

good post mattie, regards tina

I have endorsements on all my dogs apart from the one I saved from the puppy farm these are to be lifted when my bitches are two dogs one all hips and eyes to be tested and that if I ever decide to sell any dog I must sell it back to the breeder im fully aware of this when I take the pups on must be horriable to find this out at a later date

not be doing very well if you have to sell ALL your dogs back to your breeder will you dogs lol
keep it going u've been on line hours now lol

Lynne,

The endosments show on the certificate so surely the breeder should have checked it out before breeding the pups. I am not saying the £250 was fair but I think there may be more to this.

I do agree with the endosements as long as they are used fairly.

Pam

the £250 the breeder asked for to lift the restriction could well of been the difference in the price she sold her pet---/ breeding bitches for, as the bitch had been bred she was kind enough to lift the restriction so his pups could them be registered, she didnt have to if the bitch had been sold purely as a pet-----to say that the breeder was aware they already had an entire male is niether here nor there, wonder if it would of ever happened if theyd been from 2 different breeds ????--bet it wouldnt of

Hi
Your friend should contact the Kennel club before this breeder is allowed to con others...any endorsements put on pups has to be clearly stated to the new owner, and the breeder must show proof of this by having a signature..other wise the kc will lift the endorsements themselves free of charge.
:)

Without knowing the full facts I think it is a bit unfair to say the breeder conned anyone! From the initial post I understand that the owners had had the bitch for several years - surely long enough to read the KC reg and query any endorsement. Not sure about your point re contacting the KC either, I know that you have to have endorsements acknowledged in writing by the purchaser now, but I dont know how retrospective this ruling was.
Gwen

as gwen has said without knowing all the facts,and trying to read between the lines here, how can the breeder be a con, they put the restrictoins on so as the dog would not be bred from, as i read it and look at it who is to say that the person has bred the dog knowing that the endorsments were there but just played dumb and said they did not know they were inplace and caried on in the hope that the pups could be registered,
they did'nt go back to the original breeder to ask there advice on who to mate the dog to, so i wonder who the real con is.could of been a verbal agreement and not a written one between seller and buyer regards tina

SORRY THINK THAT IF THE BREEDER CHARGED £250 to lift the endorsement still think the owner was conned.

Maybe the breeder charged £250 in the hope that it wouldn't be paid and her breed and reputation would be protected.

If it was me I wouldn't have lifted the endorsement and I'd have let the owner be sued for wrongly advertising the pups as KC registered.

Fiona
x x x

Another angle to this is that maybe the breeder has done this purely as a deterant. Hopefully depending how many read this thread here it will act as one.

Pam

I dont agree with you there Aigio, sorry

Can I just say that I endorse all my pup registrations...the new owners are fully aware and sign to say so..of which we both receive a signed copy.If the new owner wishes to breed, the dog must be one in good condition,the new owner must have sufficient time and space, and a good hip score must be acheived before I will lift the endorsement..and obviously there must be a damn good reason for wanting to breed in the first place.
I have lifted endorsements twice now with success, and have not charged a penny for this.
Novices do not look at the kc reg for information and many would not even know about endorsements without being told.
So if this person went ahead with the litter and sent the green form off to register the pups, it's possible they were in the dark about the whole thing.
It is the responsibility of the original breeder to make clear the endorsements upon the sale of the pup, I'm sure if it had been made clear this wouldn't have happened.
We haven't got all the facts but based on what we have got, I think charging for endorsements to be lifted is wrong and if this £250 was part of the sale of the pup it should have been written down for both parties.So still think the first breeder is at fault.

hi tracy
perhaps if we look at the original post from shadow and as she said it is not from a close friend then perhaps they have not give shadow all the details, if shadow has any more details it would be interesting to know as it is quite a interesting topic, how about if by charging the £250 it is a deterant incase this accident should occur again, may be more carefull not to let it happen again,as some feel the breeder is right and some think the other person is hard done by, this thread is like playing detectives who is the cheat and who has been cheated, hope you are o.k tracy and still keeping fingers crossed for bom bom, regards tina

I am wondering why the person mentioned sent in to register the pups - when he/she checked KC reg for detail sto fill in the registration form then would have seen the endorsement, and why advertise the pups as KC reg. if not yet registered? Even if the original breeder is being rather opportunistic by charging an extra £250 (and we dont know if this is so, perhaps the bitch was sold well under price in the begining because she was endorsed) the bitch owner is either being unbelievably naive or was taking the chance that the original breeder would listen to the hard luck story and lift the endorsement.

I just notice the line in the original post that the breeder knew this person had an entire dog, as if this was enough to make them aware of the intention to breed - might this not have been the reason for actually placing the endorsement?
Gwen

Hi aoife
To be honest, I was feeing frustrated about things to do with Bombom, and I got a bee in my bonnet. :)
Your right we don't have enough info to be judge and jury and innocent until proven guilty.
Would like to know more about it though....SHADOW are you there??? can you tell us any more ???
If someone I'd sold a pup to hadn't hip scored ect I would just refuse to lift the endorsement.Otherwise what's the point of putting one on in the first place, it's the breeds welfare I'm interested in not charging people if they don't abide by the agreement.Sorry I'm going on again now . :)

Tracey :)

Had a phonecall from an aquaintance who has a male white (well cream with biscuit shading) GSD. He comes from a Bristol breeder who appears to breed for the pet market, on a small scale commercial basis.

At least she hip scores the dogs, and having produced some rather nervy whites in the past appears to be using her very laid back black and tan male on the white bitches to good effect judging by the pup that my freind has. We have also had a number of her coloured long coats at our training class, and I must say they are really even tempered pet dogs.

My friend/Aquaintance was asked by the lady across the road to use her dog, as the bitch she owns was in season now!!!

She contacted me for advice, and should she go ahead?

I asked her if her dog had been hip scored and Haemophilia tested, as those should have been one of the would be breeders first questions. I explained that it would cost over £200 for these tests, and that the results would take some time to come back. Also did she know if the bitch had been hip scored.

I put it to her that as the bitch owner had done so little preperation and checking for health, would she really trust her to take sufficient care to rear and find the right homes for the pups?

Also both the canine parties are maidens, and would be breeder and stud owners have no experience!

This is the kind of scenario I hope to avoid when I place endorsements on my pups papers!

Sorry Tracy,
Just spotted your post re: more info - I don't really have much more info, the endorsement wasn't spotted on the registration docs cos he had never heard of endorsements, didn't initially plan on breeding but was definately not told about the endorsement.
The pups ended up in good working homes as it turned out so they probably didn't need the KC certificate anyway, mums none the worse for the pregnancy and she has now been spayed.

PS can't access the internet as much as I could previously - hence sometimes I post then you don't get much reply back.(boss is like creeping Jesus)

Lynne

Hi Shadow
Thanks for reply...can't say alot more than I already have, and still have the same opinion.
Glad the Mum and Pups are ok anyway..

bYE FOR NOW.. ;)

Tell ya boss to get a life :) or better still join Champdogs :) :) :) :)

Tracey