Am posting this for a friend who has just had a litter and is having trouble with pups not being able to feed from a very agitated Mum.

She's been recommended this article: <a class='url' href='<a class='url' href='http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jxBxuBE02D0J:www.showpapillons.com/formula.htm+%22puppies+survival%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk'>http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jxBxuBE02D0J:www.showpapillons.com/formula.htm+%22puppies+survival%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk</a>'>http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:jxBxuBE02D0J:www.showpapillons.com/formula.htm+%22puppies+survival%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk</a>

But can't find anywhere to get White Corn Syrup or Pottasium Chloride.  So far tried Health food shops, chemists etc.

Any ideas as pups are 24 hours old and she wants to try this ASAP before the 48 hour cut off point.

Thanks

Can't help you as far as the corn syrup or pottasium chloride is concerned but what does her vet say? Or the breeder of her bitch?

Debs

Definatly a case of going to the vet asap. Or faster. No appointment, ring first to say you are coming and turn up during surgery, or ring and see if someone will come out urgently. Not a time to patiently wait an appointment this evening. Just in case it saves her life.

She needs to see a vet a soon as possible to exclude eclampsia in the agitated bitch if nothing else.
Potassium can affect the heart so it is not something I would ever give without veterinary direction.

She has an appointment with the vet this afternoon but wanted to do something in the meantime.

I have rung round for her because she is too busy supplimenting pups, but I can't find the ingredients either!

Thanks anyway

What is she supplementing the pups with? The wrong thing can do more harm than good. :(

Her husband drove down at 3am to take some puppy colostrum and nutridrops from me as I had them here already.

She's waiting for her vet to call her back.

I think she needs to see or at least speak to the vet urgently as the bitch may have eclampsia so that needs to be ruled out first off.  Once that has been done I would consider whether the bitch could be settled down by actually calming and gently encouraging her to feed the pups, she may actually be agitated because she filling with milk and your friend is interfering by feeding them herself.  As JG says supplementary feeding is problematic, not nearly as good as mothers own at best and potentially dangerous at worst.

Yes I agree, but Mum is laying on her tummy so pups can't get to teats.  When my friend tries to put the pups on the teat her bitch has bitten her.

Will update you when her vet has spoken to her and her hubby has told me what's what.

Is this her first litter? If so, it could be panic and she simply needs firm handling (and leather gloves!); but it could equally be a health problem.

If she were my dog I'd get the vet to do a housecall as soon as possible.

>If so, it could be panic and she simply needs firm handling (and leather gloves!)

I agree.  They do not always realise for themselves that allowing the pups to suckle will relieve the discomfort of full mammaries :rolleyes:  It's a vicious cycle of increasing discomfort than can be broken by gentle but firm encouragement.

What advice did the vet give when she made the appointment? I'm sorry, but this is one of those times I would insist that she have emergency attention. Better to have egg on your face than a dead bitch and puppies.  There could be all manner of things making her ill, as Isabel says eclampsia, then there are other things too. There are times when manners in the waiting room simply will not do. I can't understand why the vet is hesitant with a new litter of puppies and an inexperienced breeder.

>I can't understand why the vet is hesitant with a new litter of puppies and an inexperienced breeder.

The vets response is dependent on the information he is given.  Inexperienced breeders may not give the best history as they will not always appreciate the significance of signs and symptoms.

Her bitch is not shaking which hopefully will rule out the liklihood of pre-eclampsia.  The bitch was discharged yesterday afternoon from the hospital.  I've rung and told her hubby to go and sit and wait in the vets - vets are happy to see them evidentally, but my friend is worried this is going to stress the bicth out and put her back to square 1, as they did feed a bit on the 2 early feeds this morning.

Was thinking maybe a DAP diffuser would make the bitch a bit less stressed.

Keep you posted anyway.

>Her bitch is not shaking which hopefully will rule out the liklihood of pre-eclampsia.

I would let the vet decide that as not all signs and symptoms will be present in all cases.
Why was she in the hospital?
I would think have the right situation in the house providing a sense of peace and security and a calm, familiar, patient and sensitively firm handler would be of the greatest benefit.

Chi Chi.........IMO The vet should come out, if only to put everyones mind at rest. I know a heck of a lot of vets that would, they never leave anything to chance, and would be more inclined to visit an inexperienced person with a brand new litter of puppies simply because they could be missing a serious problem. Also, the puppies are not feeding, they need to be. You are right in that you don't want to disturb the bitch, can understand your thinking, but better to disturb her than lose her and the babies.

You say the bitch was discharged from hospital yesterday.....what is the history there?
I'm just keeping my fingers and toes tightly crossed for you.

My friend asked to see a different vet in the practice and now feels much better.  Mum and pups seem ok, but rather than all the constant monitoring the other vet told her and hubby to do, the other vet has told them to go out for a walk, and just keep a close eye but not to be so regimental about everything.  The other vet was clinical, just very detached and factual as well as abrupbt and not very supportive (not intentional it's just how she is evidentally), whereas the vet they've seen within the same practice is much warmer and reassuring, which they need as it was their first litter.  Mum had a difficult birth and they had to take her in as one of the pups was stillborn and she was passing meconium pre whelp, that was why she was at the hospital (not admitted).

Hopefully a happy ending there then.  Thank you everybody.

I would definately not leave them alone for a moment, especially as the mother is not too happy yet. 

Absolutely not. Far too risky.

Give me clinical, detached and factual anyday even if it is delivered abruptly.
In addition to my thoughts on how much research new breeders should do I am beginning to think it is not only the dogs temperament they should dispassionately consider but there own!  If people are not likely to cope well with the stresses and occassional upsets that inevitably come with whelping to the point that a vet tells them to go and take a walk you have to wonder if they should have left the whole business to someone more practical.

:rolleyes:  She had been given a strict regime by the other vet though.  It was mentioned that she could go for a walk as she said she wanted to walk her other dogs, not because she's on the verge of a breakdown.

I have told her not to leave Mum for any longer than a few minutes so her and hubby are doing shifts.

I'm keeping fingers crossed for a happy ending too. :)

You said the vet told "them" to go out for a walk and you have had to tell them about continuous observation so not sure that I need to revise my opinion of her.  I would not leave this bitch even for a few minutes.  Where has she done her research?  Has she had any mentorship from an experienced breeder at all?  Is she a member of a breed club?

It must be really high where you are Isabel.

I would not wish to come any lower when it comes to breeding.

and on every subject I seem to mention! I was brought up in a Christian home where it is not my place to judge others as they are answerable only to God, and I am quite happy without all the responsibility of enlightening other people to all their shortcomings.

Not even if they put their bitch at risk by mating it without sufficient knowledge to protect and take care of her?

Val, if my friend wasn't taking care of the Mum and pups she wouldn't have used the puppy colostrum and nutridrops and been searching for some of the other recommended ingredients for pups not feeding well.  She prepared carefully for the event and read up and watched videos and spoke to other breeders and sat in on the breeder she got her bitch from whelping.  She did not put her bitch at risk, the birth was complicated and she took the correct decision in going to the vet.  She is a warm person who did not enter into the step of breeding lightly, and is very concientious.  She went to the vet and one vet contradicted the advice of another and after two nights with no sleep she got a bit flustered.  She is not an incompetant and irresponsible breeder for goodness sake, she is human.

*Shakes head in disbelief and goes to put the kettle on!*:rolleyes:

Oh please will someone tell me whats going on it seems so confusing reading it Is this the bitches first litter?why doesnt 2 people  see to the bicth while the pup trys to feed i, put on some leather gloves and have someone help me Mind youi,m over the top i,m still observing mine cloley and it,s only 1 pup as you know .Mum is very good with him just me wrapping poor soul up in cotton wool .Time to let go now a bit as he,s 7 weeks Please let us know how your mum and pups are ,but don,t leave them alone yet it,s far too soon

I have always cared about animal welfare and have never regarded that as incompatible with being a Christian.  If we left it entirely up to God how animals were treated I doubt welfare would improve, far from it.  It takes education as well.

I appreciate that this is a very touchy subject. My thoughts, having worked on a racehorse stud and having attending many foalings that were supervised by a stud groom who himself had spent many years gaining experience before taking the higher position himself, is that no matter how experienced you are, things can and do go wrong. The unexpected can and does happen. Unless you have attended a multitude of whelpings, you cannot know everthing that can happen during them, or know how to deal with the situation. Experience is gained by learning, and taking advice from those more experienced than yourself. The most experienced breeder had the first litter, the first 'bad' or difficult experience, and at that time turned to either a more experienced breeder for help, or their vet. None of us are that experienced that we cannot learn, none of us know everything.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, perhaps the owner should have made sure they had someone experienced they could fall back on, who could have been at the house when the whelping happened, or even just for phone advice. They chose the help of their vet, and to be honest that is a normal option, after all who is more qualified than a vet? Ok, I'm sure you all have your ideas on that, as do I, but after all that is the general opinion of many, the vet should know best. So, they relied on the vet, the fact differing opinions were given is not the fault of the owner, who chose the best advice for them. I still think the vet should have come out, they knew the owner was inexperienced with breeding and unable to give an accurate picture of the situation, , worried, there had already been quite a serious problem, the vet was the best person to say what condition the bitch was in, and deal or advise with it accordingly.  I don't know how long the owner has owned dogs, I don't know if she shows or just has her dogs as pets, regardless of this, she was inexperienced with breeding and vets help should have been forthcoming.

I am not making any opinions on if this litter should have been bred at all, because I don't feel its my place to do so. This is my opinion, I leave everyone else to have their own view on this, as I say, very delicate situation.

Chi Chi came on here asking for advice about an ongoing situation, from people with experience. Is this not the whole meaning of an advice forum, even if the obvious advice is to get off the Pc and get to the vet? Maybe this whole post is a lesson to be learnt by those who think breeding is an easy way of making money, and quite simple. The owner has done her homework, but things went wrong. As is life, you can't cover every eventuality.

I hope the puppies are coming along now, and everything is more settled in the household. I have 'The Book of The Bitch, and have read a friends copy of The whelping and rearing of puppies, which is informative and carries pictures.  Might give some pointers for your friend Chi Chi.

Beautifully written Calmstorm  :-)  We are all passionate about dogs - don't think we would be here otherwise but I feel on this occasion, advice was more important than a lecture. I agree that the lady should have had a mentor 'physically' at hand to help in these situations but like becoming a first time mother ourselves, we can read all the books in the world, go to parentcraft etc but there are so many moments of uncertainty and panic that we face because we care so much for our newborn..........I can imagine first time breeding must be very similar except you have the worry of both mum and puppies. I do hope all is well Chi-Chi, please let us know. x

I can imagine first time breeding must be very similar except you have the worry of both mum and puppies

Absolutely.  In the same way that we wouldn't put ourselves at risk by having our first baby with only our best friend with us - we have an experienced midwife to help if things go wrong, and our dogs trust us to have the knowledge to take care of them if things go wrong for them.

Unfortunately, Calmstorm, most Vets have very little experience of natural whelpings, it's not part of their training:rolleyes: but they do have a place if the bitch needs a ceasarian.  An experienced breeder should be the first choice for support because they will know when the Vet is needed..

Val, I agree, an experienced person is the best for a natural whelping, providing that person has experience not by numbers of natural whelpings, but by experience of dealing with things that can go wrong. As I have said, anyone reading this post will see that breeding is not straight forward. Also, total reliance on the vet for an easy whelping cannot always be relied on, especially when they won't attend for a potential problem. Having someone there who knows what they are doing will keep everyone calm, including the bitch, who can get on with her job then, and if she needs a calm and controling hand to accept being a mum, it will be there.

With hindsight, I bet the lady in question would agree! However, like many she put her trust in the person who is qualified in animal care, her vet. Like so many others I expect, its only when you read a post that runs like this one, you can see the pitfalls. I actually think she did what she thought best regarding backup, and she did her homework as much as she could with her own bitches breeder, the videos etc. The fact some of the advice given was misguided was not really her fault. She took what she thought was the best advice possible, from the best people possible, and had prepared herself by that advice. Chi Chi came here posting because things were going wrong, not really to have a biased lecture about how the lady was not prepared, which is a shame.

You are entitled to your opinion, mine is just as I have stated above.  Not only do novice breeders have a duty to ensure their actual competence these recent posts has brought it home to me that they should also consider whether they have the ability to keep a level head to facilitate that competence.
Not sure why the vets' part comes into all this.  As far as the story appears to have gone the bitch has not required any further veterinary treatment nor does there seem to be any conflict between the two vets determining that the only difference appears to have been that the second vet's manner was more to their liking and they advised going for a walk.

>Maybe this whole post is a lesson to be learnt by those who think breeding is an easy way of making money, and quite simple.

Now that I do agree with.