Long time lurker here.

I have a question for you fine folk - what is the maximum time a puppy could be left on its own (talking about 6/7/8 week old).

Reason: I'm a member of a breed specific forum (sadly mainly American). An individual who is only 24 has amased a massive 7 dogs in roughly 3 years. She works about 40 hours a week - crates all her dogs during the day sometimes at night. Doesn't walk them before work. Has a youngster with seperation anxiety (yet still got another 2 dogs). Now she has gone and "rescued" three puppies, believed to be about 5 or 6 weeks old. One of these puppies just got really sick. She said he was fine when she saw him at lunch, but when she came home FIVE HOURS later he was sick and lifeless. Now she plans on keeping one of these pups - making a grand total of 8 dogs. No one else has said anything except me (she just gets lots of praise for doing a good job). The fact that she keeps asking for money for vets bills is a whole other issue!!!!

Am I right in saying its is cruel and insane to work 40 hours a week and raise an incredibly young puppy leaving him 9 or 10 hours a day. I know I will be blasted on that site for criticising her (even though she lays down the law with other members).

When does it become acceptable to leave a puppy? If at all. I know when mine was young she was let out every hour for a poop, or after a sleep/eating/play. I took her to work with me. Somebody was always with her. She's 18 months old and is never left on her own for more than 3 hours (which is rare.

Personally I wouldn't leave an adult dog for more than 4 hours at a time, and a young puppy no more than 1 hour.

Well apart from anything else, a puppy aged just 5 to 6 weeks needs feeding 5 times a day -which is a bit difficult if nobody is at home......... By 7-8 weeks 4 times is fine and this I keep up until at least 12 weeks, then it goes down to 3 meals. Of course, a puppy is physically incapable of holding urine for very long at just 8 weeks so crating will not do much good there as far as house training goes -if the poor thing somehow does manages to hold on for 8 hours+ (which is unlikely) it is NOT at all healthy for urine to stay in the bladder for so long for a young pup.

Thank you so much for your replies. You said exactly what I was thinking. As predicted it has turned into a slanging match whereby she claims they have no accidents and can hold themselves for 5-6 hours (apparently they are 7.5 weeks old now).

Sorry but those pups will develop bladder.kidney problems if by soem miracle they are holding on.

My pup is now 12 weeks and will hold on through the night 11.30pm to 7.30am, adn I woudl not leave her crated for more than an hour or two maximum.  For the first time I am crating at night, as I am being a tad careful with my brand new kitchen.  I had resigned myself to getting up in the small hours, but at 8 weeks she could go with the other pups until 6am.

Ive had just this sort of argument on another American based site. It would seem that this is very common practise in the USA, and I was called the equivilent of a soft Brit.:rolleyes: Nobody will ever convince me that crating a puppy for 9 or so hours a day while it's owner is at work, is anything but cruel.

Dawn R.

My experience of dog keeping in America over the past 35 years, even by truly nice, kind (to humans) people, is that they treat dogs like soft toys rather than living things.  If you see the dreadful (to us) conditions that they are kept in small, family run pet shops, it is just beyond our comprehension.  Normal families think nothing of keeping a dog caged all day, or on a running line, unsupervised with no fence for security all day.  And when another dog comes and attacks the tethered dog, everybody shrugs their shoulders and says "What a pity"!

And if they want to go on holiday, they either leave the dog tethered with a huge self feeding hopper of food for the week, or take it to the pound and get another dog when it's convenient.

Here we would be horrified, there it's more 'normal' :(.

I really am being slated there as the odd one out. Even being sweared at :rolleyes: Not to mention personal attacks about me and my dog. She says her dogs are better housetrained than my one dog (which she knows nothing about). She has a 1 year old (who she had from 4 months) with seperation anxiety who poops anywhere and everywhere - she refuses to see its her fault. She doesn't bother to lead train them.

All because I said it was cruel to work so much and keep a very young dog. I feel so sorry for the puppy.

Oh and apparently my dog lives a life of luxury because someone is always here for her. She compared it to giving a dog bottled water :rolleyes: and hers are better exercised than 97% of all dogs, hers gets better food/lives and fluffier beds than the majority including mine.

Buzz, there is nothing you can say to these people, nothing they want to listen to, and they are probably enjoying getting a rise out of you. Or, because of your (quite rightly) differing opinions, they may think you are winding them up for fun....For your own sake, get off that site and stay away.

My dogs used to be crated through the day, (still are at night due to the fact that they sleep better and when we get up and they are not crated they howl as they can hear us moving and want food), but even then if i had to be out for longer than 2 hours their grandma came to babysit. (my nan) They are now sent to their crates with a biscuit for me to leave the house without struggling with them, but the crates are open and they have full run of the downstairs, (off course with the bin moved, they are beagles after all). Don't let these people bother you, you just have to watch ricky lake to see what some americans find acceptable behavior. Stick to your guns but at the same time ignore them. Remember, people only insult personally when they are too ignorant to argue their case successfully or know you have a valid point.

Remember, people only insult personally when they are too ignorant to argue their case successfully or know you have a valid point.

Never a truer statement made :D :D

Can you not report her to your relevant authorities such as the equivilent of our RSPCA ? I am sure they will do something. This is madness and cruelty beyond belief

I WISH that there was someone to complain to. Especially since she dictates her way is THE best/only way to raise dogs that are fit, healthy and happy. Her house is apparently tiny too.

I'm sticking to this place, I like this place so much where people know what they are talking about.
BTW the moderator of that side agreed with me!!!

Hi,
     I am in the Staes, too. I find your description of this woman's practices appalling.
     Please do not generalize what some do to what all do. It is NOT the "norm" in the States for dogs to be neglected like this. There are bad people everywhere, especially when it comes to animals. This is not an "American" problem, but a "people" problem.
                                                                      

hi tialee
im sure you are right but i have to admit i have never heard of a dog chained all day in a yard like they are in usa. sometimes they never get let off the chain even for a walk! my brother lives in arizona.

Unfortunately my next door neighbours dog was like that for years when I complained to RSPCA it had a kennel and water so would not do anything about it.  its chain used to get notted up so I would wait until tey went to work and climb the fence to untangle it. 

My comments are not generalisations but personal experience.  I have had friends in Illinois and Arizona since 1971 who I visit regularly, really lovely, kind people but I have yet to see a family who keep their dog in a way that would be generally accepted as OK in the UK.

And the dirty, mixed litters that I've seen in pet shops over there are a disgrace. :(  We have pet shops that sell puppies here, which are not generally commended by animal lovers, but thet are normally clean. :(

I'm sure, as you say, not everyone over the pond treats their dogs like soft toys, but that's certainly my experience over 30+ years.

To OP,

You definitely did the right thing by speaking up. Unfortunately this person believes that they are actually helping the dog by rescuing them. It's a fairly common phenomenon as this person sounds like a "collector". It's frustrating that you can't do more to help but I'm afraid it is sometimes necessary for a tragedy to occur for these people to see the error of their ways. It makes you wonder why we bother making animal cruelty laws as they are never far reaching enough and abuse like this can take place but it's ok because the dog has shelter, water and food"- I believe a wise man once said "Man cannot live by bread alone", surely this is the same for animals too? If these were the children of the person in question social services would have been involved long ago.

Apologies for the rant but that post just sent my blood pressure through the roof!

She makes my blood boil everytime I read her posts ..  and she posts alot!!
One of the puppies died, and another one is sick now (distemper).
I must admit to being quite emotional lately, since everyone there thinks she does such a fantastic job.

I got called naive by several of the posters due to saying no one could work full time and raise such a young dog. This individual attacked me because my post implied she wouldn't be able to care for a puppy and work. She said that puppies do not need someone around all the time (remember they are currently 8 weeks old now). Puppies need care and attention which I honestly can't see happening if you are out for 10 hours a day (not to mention her other 7 dogs need attention too).

The thing that shocks me the most is I say she is cruel, a whole bunch of people I've mentioned it to says she is cruel ... yet NO ONE on that site thinks it is. Apparently my dog lives a life of Luxury because as a puppy she was never left on her own and to this day she is rarely left.
BTW this is a very, very, very active breed we are talking about here. The type that needs good amounts of daily activity, mental stimulation and above all the company of humans!!

Hi Buzz, I really know how you feel and I think I have decided not to visit forums where I have seen similar threads to the one you are describing as they really stress me out (even though I know they shouldn't) On a forum I used to regularly visit most of the members are all incredibly caring and loving owners but then we get to the training section and attitudes seem to come out that upset me greatly, 'a knee to the chest' for a jumping dog, a prong/electric collar for a puppy pulling on the lead, 'Alpha rolls' if a dog growls when you snatch a treat away, crating pups at 8 weeks for full working days (and more than once the crate was being kept in the garage)...there were just too many similar attitudes to contend with so to stop getting stressed out by posting and everybody disagreeing, I have decided to just not read it!

Ok Buzz, lets have the name of the site (by PM) and send the big guns in ......CD could overload them, tell them what a bunch of ............rotten bananas they are, give them some advice to ponder on, and leave them to it! They wouldn't know what had hit them :D

ME FIRST :)

That's a great idea calmstorm... lend some extra voices to help them see that it is simply not on, and that it isn't the minority that think so.

Viva la revolution! Or something.

ok, yup, forget my idea of just not reading it...send the big guns in! (well a few more voices might help a little)

The "nasty fighting" posts have just been deleted - since its not fair on her because these puppies are fighting distemper (can her dogs catch it, since she did introduce her dogs to the pups ).

Assuming they live she will still be keeping one (I bet she will keep both). Then it will all begin again.
Yes - the puppies were being kept in the garage.

I'll send whoever wants it a link to the site so you can see for yourselves. I must stay strong and keep away from places like these!!

These American chat groups are something that are really annoying me at the moment.  I've heard of a number of lies being spread about my breed and the breeding of them over here and supposedly there's nothing that can be done about it   If a paper wrote what I've heard is being written we could sue.

Buzz pm me the link too if you could.I'de be more than happy to back you up ;) :)

I know all to well what you are talking about,as i'm a member of a few US sites.I mostly just read the nutrition boards,but if i venture over to the other boards, without fail i will get involved in a crate,shock/prong collar or lack of exercise debate :rolleyes:

The weird thing is the members of these boards are so up to date with the latest canine nutrition advances and really know the importance of this,and put me in awe everyday with their knowledge in this department,but when it comes to the other stuff they can be so infuriatingly ignorant

The most common comment i get is "Well, as long as the dog has a home and is loved and cared for,and is not on death row in a shelter,how can you argue" :rolleyes:

Well, that post may have gone, but we can lurk a bit......wish I knew an evil smilie :P

Ktee, that is the response I had.
I said why not hand the pups over to someone who can actually be there for them. Apparently it meant I wanted the dogs to die :rolleyes:
I'm so glad I live in a country where dog rescues have their heads screwed on right.

These individuals see owning a dog as a right not a privilidge. Someone else has just said that their 1 year old dog is crated all day 3/4 days a week and gets 1 hours walk per day. Again this is a breed that a)needs human company, b)needs exercise. Our UK rescue stipulates that they must not be left home all day, especially in a crate. And they wonder why their dogs are developing "issues".

Oh well, link is being sent!!

Does anyone know how the new animal welfare act views crating, and exercise etc?  I take it America will not be joining in with all this EU stuff any time soon?

Again, it seems to be the US sites, regardless of breed,  a site I visit,   a  woman joined with a big problem , she is at her wits end:rolleyes:   she has a now 8mth old pup, who constantly pees in her crate,   she goes on to tell it is crated for 8/9  hrs a day, and has always done this from when pup was around 7wks old,   she is getting to the end of her "tether"   because the pup wont learn to "hold on"   she can not understand why even if she is at home or goes out for 1/2 hr the pup will still pee in the crate. this woman also claims to have been a dog trainer for 9yrs   she refuses to listen to any thing anyone says,  sometimes you might as well talk to a brick wall.

Another one is someone  whose soul advice it to use a Halti ( it cures all problems)    even for young pups/dogs,  she even  makes her dog wear his halti in his own enclosed yard.     because he has " inpluse control issuess":rolleyes:

I've seen posts exactly like what you've said too. The world we live in has some crazy people in it.