Mmmm, I think people might want to use the Search facility and have a look at previous post on insurance through E&L ;)  Unfortunately ease of arranging and even immediate cover are not all that we need from a good insurance company.  Crunch time comes with a claim as you say :)

With E&L you pay for what you get, which as you correctly say Isabel isn't a great deal. They are shambolic. Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

>Because if that is the case, he must be breeding a few different litters of puppies then!

I'm not sure we have enough evidence to pin it on them ;)  I think a lot of.......less than conciencious.........breeders don't bother with insurance, too much paper work prehaps ;)

But with the Kc they don't have any paperwork, its all left to the new owner?

That's true.  Perhaps the OP will let us know if registration documents were given with the pup.

Where does it say the puppy had 'no papers'?

it dosent actuallysay this, simply that there is no insurance, the OP didnt say if there were papers. As I said, I don't know if there are papers, but as there is no insurance I wonder why when the Kc gives it out free? To registered puppies, that is! I would have thought the breeder would have pointed out all this when the puppy was transfered. All they are saying now is simply no insurance.

I do wonder if the wormers are acting against each other to cause a problem. It was not known what the wormer supplied was, or how old it was, what conditions it had been previously stored under etc, so the active ingrediants are not known. I certainly wouldn't have been happy to give a wormer again, in such a short space of time, not knowing what the other one was or if it had been correctly administered, as in quantity for pups weight etc, or if the ingrediants in both wormers could cause a reaction with each other. I'm a bit suprised the vet didnt leave some time between the two, say worm again at the next vaccination, let the other wormer clear the system. That, combined with a vaccination which can give an upset tummy in those sensitive to it, could cause these symptoms. Hopefully tests will reveal what the problem actually is, and the puppy will make a full and good recovery.

I wish OP the best of luck at this very worrying time, so far she has taken advice and only done the very best for her puppy.

I don't think I would want such a young puppy to continue with a heavy worm burden either. 
Despite all the hype on the internet I don't know of any scientific reason why worming and vaccination cannot be safely given together as both treatments are so very different and act on the body in such very different ways in the same way that it is possible to take differently acting pain killers at the same time without risk of overdose.
As I say, I think the food looks the likely cause to me.  The vet took tests, presumably stool samples etc, when they suspected Parvo so it seems likely to me that salmonella has been established.

I have no idea what the internet hype is, nor the scientific one, ;), but I do know some medication can interact badly with another, and is not advisable to be given together. This is when you actually know for certain what the medication is. Plain and simple here, vaccination can cause an upset tummy (plus all the other problems as has been discussed on here many times ) and worming can upset the tummy. Not saying they interact badly, just what they may do independantly. The puppy may have a heavy worm burden ( back to the breeder here, because it shouldn't have at 8 weeks) but I would have thought a series of worming would be more useful, especially as it was not known what was given before.

Don't think anything has been established for sure, I expect though that it will come back as some form of food poisioning.

>but I would have thought a series of worming would be more useful, especially as it was not known what was given before.

Not sure what you mean there :)  Some wormers are given as a series but some are developed as a single dose application, not sure that either way is better as there are pros and cons to getting it over with or dragging it out.
The vet will at least be able to identify the wormer previously given was a liquid one so should be able to avoid overdosing with same product.  Some medications are contraindicated with each other as you say, I do not know of any wormers that are but I am sure the vet will know as I doubt it will have been the first time they have been presented with a failed worming case :)

By series I mean a dose now, then a follow up dose in a few weeks time. Without actually knowing what the first stuff was (or even if it was wormer ) the active ingrediants cannot be known, or even if the pup had a higher dose than was necessary (although Panacur say you can't overdose). There is no saying it actually was Panacur, even though it sounds like it. After all, it was just a white paste with no identifying label. How can the vet identify the liquid without testing? Without testing the pup for worms, how can they say the 'wormer' given has not been effective? especially as it was given the day before. I'm not saying don't worm again, but it seems a bit excessive to me to worm again so soon without testing on such a young chap as this. How long does it take after a dose to say its failed? I would have thought more than a couple of days?

>There is no saying it actually was Panacur, even though it sounds like it.

I believe all manner of over the counter wormers come as a liquid or paste.  In my experience Panacur is very effective although it does seem to disagree with some dogs.

>How can the vet identify the liquid without testing?

He can't, but he can know what it isn't.

We know it was not an effective wormer because the OP had seen worms. 

I' m not continuing Isabel, because I don't think this is helping the OP. I don't want the post locked because I would hope she will post again with hopefully good news about her puppy.
No offence meant, and I hope none taken :)

None at all, but can't image why the post should be locked.

If we get into a head to head it might :D..;)....but seriously, we don't agree on the worming situation, and that is how it is. It's of little use to the OP who is seriously worried about her puppy. Us bickering on forever is not fair on her. She has been on, I noticed, and has now left without posting, so I'm hoping she has not been upset by anything she has read.

>so I'm hoping she has not been upset by anything she has read.

I don't see why she should!
Discussing and exchanging information can only help to inform purchasers like herself and perhaps make them more informed next time.  You can call it bickering if that is how you feel but that is not the way I view it :)

I don't mean the whole post is bickering, :D, just you and me about the worming ;) which does seem to have become personal between us, and of no use to the OP and her situation. So now I'm gonna do what I said, and say no more about that :D ......

I can assure you I do not post on the basis of personal feeling.  If I make a point it is because I believe it. It is unfortunate that you raise personal issues, particularly when you have not received any personal posts, as that is what is likely to get a post locked.

I think what is being said is that you should not give another kind of wormer straight after the pup has already just been wormed with another product.  I too can't see how a product can have failed if it is less than a day after it was used.

A rescue litter friend reared (rescued at 6 weeks all pot bellied and crawling with fleas) was very wormy, and when give Panacur they passed live Worms and had terrible diarrhoea (because of the amount of worms), poor pups were very anaemic and Vet told my Friend not to give third days dose and to worm in two weeks after the pups recovered.

With my new pup it says you have to call yourself to arrange for the KC insurance. That's new since my litter last year even. PetPlan is from the moment you leave the breeder's house.

I'm sure the breeder would let you call from there :)

Good point. :)

Oh and another thing. I actually had to laugh when we got Kiara. There she was, with insurance from PetPlan from the breeder, insurance from the KC available if we wanted it, and when she was taken to the vet for her first vacc the vet offered us free PetPlan insurance as well! Seems some vets do this again, give you 4 weeks (not 6) when you go for a first vaccination.
We stuck with just the breeder insurance.

>Seems some vets do this again, give you 4 weeks (not 6) when you go for a first vaccination.

That seems like a good thing :)  It would help pick up a lot of puppies where the breeders don't bother or who would not qualify.

It certainly is a good thing! At least then, there is some cover in place for the main thing.....the puppy!

I would just like to say to the OP, please please don't blame yourself for the illness in your puppy, whatever the outcome of the cause. You have only done what you have been advised by the breeder, who as a breeder and showing person you believed would have given the correct advice, and by the actions of your vet, who you should trust. Thankfully for your puppy you were on the ball with his health, and have got him the best treatment available in really quick time. He is lucky to have such a caring owner.

I register all of my pups the day before they leave into their new owners names online with petplan, I am secure in the knowledge that as soon as they leave my house they are insured

Hiya again,
Please don't criticise me too much I already feel to blame even though my vet says I'm not!! I bought the pup without papers!!! More fool me, however the pup was the only one in the litter I viewed him in January about 4 weeks after he was born. I mistakingly believed that he was a pet and wasn't bred for showing both his parents are KC registered I regret this however my concern now is with the pup. The breeders show westies and dachsunds I think and are at crufts.
The wormer the breeder gave me was panacur or something like that and the vet did not give him more wormers it was simply left at the 3 day course however the vet said he would reworm him in 2 weeks. Am waiting a phonecall from the vet as to whether he has managed to keep his food today if so this is a good sign. I am so so worried. I have an elderly rescue westie and am worried for him I'm sterilising the floors twice daily at the minute as well as soaking bowls etc in Milton in case it is salmonella I would hate him to come down with it too. The vet has sent away a stool sample and bloods. The vet did confirm his white cell count was low although this could be down to the white cells being at the site of infection. I have contacted the breeder to inform him and he confirmed no insurance as the pup wasn't KC registered. In return I have massive vets bills last night alone cost £237 however I will find the money somehow, he will not go without what he needs. Am gutted as I am so careful with insurance for my pets last year my other westie had £4000 worth of treatment that insurance covered its just a pity its within the first 14 days!!
This has torn me to the core I hope and pray he will get through this.

Nobody is critisising you :)  You are not the first and won't be the last to fall for the story that if a puppy is not for show he need not be registered.   What I do hope this thread has done is to enlighten you for the future and any other prospective puppy buyers reading the thread.
For those people I would say there is no reason at all for a responsible breeder not to register their pups.  The cost is negligable and it demonstrates that you are working within the Kennel Code of ethics.  The biggest reason not to, as far as I can see, is that you cannot meet their criteria for registration which covers such issues as number of litters from a bitch, age at which she is bred from and endorsement prohibiting breeding from an animal that has not been lifted, perhaps due to the fact the dog has not been show to be a good example at show or passed relevent health tests.  As you see all these issues are relevent to welfare and health of the future pups which is why all purchasers should look for Kennel Club registration even when buying a pet.

Just a point, and again, absolutely no criticism of Wendy; even though her poorly puppy isn't registered, the KC Code of Ethics linked to previously still applies, because the breeder owns at least one KC registered dog. For example, the CoE states:

>Owners will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.

No mention that the dog being placed in a new home has to be registered. Wendy makes no mention of a written diet sheet having been given and so the breeder has breached the CoE on at least one point.

As they show and presumably do register some of their litters it is good that you have reported them to the KC as they do appear to have broken their code in respect of

>Owners agree not to breed from a bitch in any way which is deleterious to the bitch or breed.

Have you also reported them to the Breed Club as I believe their code will have been broken as well.

If westielover2 was going to report the breeder to the breed club she should contact www.southernwesthighlandwhiteterrierclub.co.uk
that is the club for the area she got the pup from.  Good luck with the pup hope he is home with you soon.

Hi Westielover,

I don't think anyone is critical of you at all. We all feel for your poor little boy and hope that he pulls through this setback. He certainly has an owner that loves him and has taken the trouble to take him to the vets. In the excitement of buying a pup and sometimes these things get overlooked.(Insurance)The debate after was which company will offer insurance for non kc reg pups.

I am sending good vibes and hope your wee man pulls through this. Keep positive

Hiya again,
The breeder did not give me a diet sheet he just said he was fed on raw chicken mince and he believed commercial foods give dogs diarrhoea!!! When he cam home I fed him IAMs puppy as there was no way I would give him raw mince!!! Crazy. I picked my puppy up on Friday and arranged for my cover to begin then he has insurance expcept it states that it does not cover illness within the first 14 days!!
What do you think his chances of pulling through are? am so scared for him, just waiting the phonecall from the vet now.

I hope your vet updates you soon but I think as you took him so soon and they commenced supportive therapy, fluids etc, very quickly he should have a very good chance :)

I Know you are out of your mind with worry but your boy is in the best possible place at the moment. No news is good news xx

He's in the best place for him in his condition, receiving the best treatment. You took him to the vet promptly (that's half the battle) and he's being kept well hydrated, which is most important. The vets won't want to keep him longer than is necessary so with luck he'll be back with you soon. :)

''....brilliant gave him first injection he also realised he had ear mites and gave me surolan to treat this and some drops to put on my puppys neck. NOT frontline but one which also kills roundworm earmites etc.''

This from your first post, which made me think he had been wormed again? Sorry if I have it wrong I would certainly chase up this breeder, lack of papers is simply not on with someone who is supposed to be a reputable breeder, and it is good you have reported them to the Kc,and I would certainly carry on with the breed club too. It won't help your little chap, but it could help others who are buying on this breeders reputation. Not that I think much of someone who dosent register their puppies, as has been said there is no genuine reason for it, he could have registered it and endorsed papers, makes no difference, you couldn't breed with him and have the puppies registered, if that is what he was trying to stop. It's people like these that give good show etc breeders a bad name. And cause heartache for people like yourself by giving bad advice.

No one can say how your puppy will fare, all we can do is keep everything crossed for him and you. I really wish you all the very best, and hope he's back in your lap soon. No one is critising you, any critism should be at the feet of the breeder. IMO.

Hi Westielover
You haven't done anything wrong so please do not feel criticised.

You have chosen a puppy who through no fault of your own is poorly and you're giving him the best possible chance he could have.  Thank goodness you chose him, another owner might not be quite so caring.

You seem to have lots of love to give to this little man and I'm sure he knows that, so just keep positive, I'm sending lots of positive thoughts to you and keeping everything crossed for him xxxx
Maria :)

Westielover I have many years of experience of showing and breeding and keeping dogs and working with dogs and yet I myself got fooled into buying an unregistered pup as a pet just 2 years ago who also wasn't insured because of it. In my case the pup's health was fine but he had an accident so it cost me a lot of money that insurance would have covered had he been registered and sold with it. We can all make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them -and I hope your pup will be alright. :)

My little Westie is still at the vets still on drips etc he has one drip that is straight into his bone marrow as he was so dehydrated on Weds. They are going to put this drip back into his leg. He isn't moving about so much it guts me to see him. He did wag his tail a bit when I spoke to him this morning. The vet said that she was concerned that he had been like this for so long. He isn't eating yet has had some diaroeah and im still so so worried.
To top it all my other westie was sick twice in the night and seemed lethargic this morning I took him to the vets for an anti biotic injection to be on the safe side. Although hes sleepy hes on the continual hunt for food.
I really want my little man to pull through I hope and pray for a positive sign.

I am so sorry to hear this news, especially as your older one is poorly now. Have none of the tests done on the puppy come back yet? I can only repeat that I am really hoping he picks up.

Oh Dear :( So sorry to hear he is not picking up yet.  What a worrying time for you.

So sorry to hear puppy is still not picking up, will keep all fingers and toes crossed for you.  If you are finding it hard to pay the full vets bill ask your vet if he will take the money in instalments, I had to do that years ago when something unexpected came up and I did not have all the money at the time to pay the full bill.

So sorry to hear that there hasn't been much improvement and that your older dog isn't too well either, you're certainly having a rough time of things at the moment.
Hope it helps to know that many people on here are hoping for a good outcome.
Take care
xx

Hi Westielover,

I am so sorry that your wee man is no better. I hope that he soon turns the corner and picks up. Sending positive vibes your way x

Hi Westielover
Thanks for the update but I'm so sad the little man is no better today :(  and sorry to hear your other dog is not well too, you must be out of your mind with worry!

If positive thoughts and vibes can help then they will get better, sending lots of best wishes and positive vibes to the three of you!
Maria xx

Have they found out what is wrong? I'm keeping everything crossed for him, what an awful time you're having. :(

Waiting for tests back we should know this pm if its parvo. Older westie is much better playing and wanting food although he is a little more sleepier than usual. Vet is at this time trying to put the iv line into a vein on his leg so it can be taken out of the bone on his body as this is causing him some miscomfort. Hes been like this for 3 days now and beside myself with worry.

Thank goodness the older westie is improving, it's probably normal to be sleepy after being poorly and having an antibiotic shot!
I've got everything crossed for your little man's recovery and I know everyone else on here feels the same!
Maria xx