I thought I would start clicker training with my flat coat, as he's exercise restricted at the moment.  I've tried the links on here but I can't find anything to answer my questions. I got a copy of Karen Pryor's book (which admittedly I haven't finished yet). I think I've got the hang of the basic theory - click and treat to begin with to condition to the clicker - but how many times do you do that - ten, twenty, fifty? Then it says to go on to teach the sit. He already knows the sit, but does that mean I have to reteach it with the clicker, or can I just start on whatever I want to?  And then when you teach something, you start by clicking the smallest move in the right direction... but how long do you click that move for before you stop and wait for something that's a further step in the right direction? I find it difficult to work out which moves are moves that will be precursors to what I want - if you see what I mean - and be convinced that the dog will eventually work out what I want him to do (but presumably he will? Please reassure :) ) and co-ordinate getting the click at the right moment ;) . And once they've got it (whatever you're training) how long do you click it for before you start introducing a verbal direction?

Okay. :) First off, you click and treat until you notice that the dog understands the click. I did this with my 9 week old pup yesterday, and it only took about 5 clicks and treats before she realised that aha! that funny sound means a sausage piece appears! You WILL notice, because after the click the dog will look for the treat.

Secondly, you can start with anything and it probably would be easier to pick something he doesn't already know, but it needs to be easy!

Thirdly, it will vary from dog to dog when you withhold a click and wait for the dog to work something out so it's impossible to say. Some dogs will quickly give up and feel "Oh no, it doesn't work anymore to do what used to produce the click, I give up!", others will instantly try something else. You'll just have to try and see what works for your dog. If he gets put off and stops doing what he did previously, you will have to start from scratch again and encourage even small attempts. (But this time it will be quicker no doubt.)

Not quite sure when to introduce the verbal command, in the class I go to we've never done it yet! But at home I do it fairly soon, such as yesterday with the pup within about 10 minutes she'd understood what sit meant after I first introduced the clicker for the first time and then clicked her for sitting, then added the word sit -it really was that quick.

what i do to condition it (but im the WORLDS WORST clicker trainer!!!) is drop  20 plus treats on the floor then click as the dog eats one. then i might click & if the dog looks at me it gets a treat!!! Sorted!!!

to add, im abit loathe to give advise on this , as although i do use a clicker, i also use, food & lure, toys ,voice ,hands, lead & a half slip!!!! so im defintally not a purist!!!!

But current Pup loves the clicker. Hes 5 months now & ive taught him, the present, retrieve, & DC by the clicker. I dont find it  so good on his HW position though so i use other things for that!!!!

I was taught that you introduce the verbal "cue" only when the dog is offering the behaviour "freely and reliably" and when you can confidently predict that the behaviour is going to occur.  In the beginning you're not testing the dog's response to the cue, you are timing the "cue" to come just before the behaviour occurs anyway!

(Clear as mud.)

I do recommend going on a course/to a class.  It really is fun and will help you get to grips with the theory.

Another way to 'load' the clicker if what Michelled suggests doesn't work (it did for my first dog but not for my pup!) is to smear some primula cheese or something equally disgusting on the back of your hand.  Sit down and present back of hand to dog;  he will go for a lick.....as he does, click, withdraw hand and toss a piece of sausage to the floor. Repeat until he will target the back of your hand without the primula cheese.  This is not a 'purist way' either and would be considered luring, but hey ho........you now have a dog that understands that the click means treat and can target the back of your hand which is useful for getting them to follow you around and focus on you.

Good luck

I use the clicker and believe there is room for both shaping (purist) and luring - initially is it much easier for beginners to use luring in clicker training I think :)

Re the cue word - best to add it when the behaviour is "fluent" ie the dog knows what it is supposed to be doing. Otherwise you are saying to the dog to do something when it may only be half trained, and the dog may think that the half trained exercise is what is meant by the actual cue word.

Lindsay
x

Having read all this information with interest ( and having no idea how clicker training works other than what I have read here) I am a bit confused - quite normal for me :)

How does your dog then understand anything after the initial cue word has been learnt?

If, for instance, you have clicker trained a sit command by clicking as the dog sits and he has associated the sitting with the clicker command and then the verbal cue has followed and been learnt - how would you then go about training another command using the clicker and not keep having the dog sit at each click because this is what he has learnt to do already?

The clicker just replaces 'good boy' so is done after the dog does the action. I use it for distance work like send aways and emergency stops because it lets me tell my dog he's done the right thing and he will get his reward.

Thanks for all your advice so far - just about to try it out :) I thought I might try teaching a 'look left' as that should be quite simple. (even for me ;) )

Harley - the click is given a split second AFTER the behaviour as a reward/ sign they've done something right, rather than the behaviour being a response to the click. So (although I haven't tried it yet) I THINK what's meant to happen is, say, you teach the sit, then when you want to teach something else the dog will probably try the sit first as they want to get the click, but when they don't get it they think 'Maybe I'll try something else then as this didn't work'. Hope that helps? :)

The other thing I don't understand (I did say for numtpies :D) is that in Karen Pryor's book she talks about using the food as a 'lure' to get the dog going in the right direction, same as you would when training with treats, like lifting it over the dog's head to train the sit so they look up and automatically sit, but from what I'm reading on here it sounds like you're really just meant to use the treats as reward and let the dog work everything out for itself? What's the right way - or doesn't it matter?

Right- thank you :) That makes sense then to me now :)

id lure to begin with, then you can modify that to just a hand signal

The other thing I don't understand (I did say for numtpies :-D) is that in Karen Pryor's book she talks about using the food as a 'lure' to get the dog going in the right direction, same as you would when training with treats, like lifting it over the dog's head to train the sit so they look up and automatically sit, but from what I'm reading on here it sounds like you're really just meant to use the treats as reward and let the dog work everything out for itself? What's the right way - or doesn't it matter?

The thing is, the way I have been taught it, is that the rewards vary a lot. Yes you use food to lure, and you can feed the dog to keep it in position or follow you or whatever you want, but it isn't an actual reward unless you click. And rewards then vary in intensity as to how well he dog has done (or how hard he has tried). Something that's okay can be rewarded click and treat, but something really REALLY brilliant, such as the first time the dog understands what it is you want him to do, say the first time a dumbbell is picked up rather than just touched for instance, you give a HUGE reward which will be far more than just a treat after the click. (Or if the dog has tried really hard and is starting to get fed up you give a big reward after one good action to mark the end of a session and cheer him up.) For instance it can mean a game with the favourite toy, lots of treats being thrown to be chased after, running around playing with the dog, letting him jump up on you etc. The dog will then understand that the really BIG rewards comes for certain things and it's worth doing your best because eventually the big reward will appear and that's lots more fun than just a click and treat.

but from what I'm reading on here it sounds like you're really just meant to use the treats as reward and let the dog work everything out for itself? What's the right way - or doesn't it matter?

Luring is often useful for dogs new to clicker training - and also dogs who've been trained with punishment in the past, as they are less likely to want to try things out for themselves - and potentially make "mistakes" that may get them punished.

I think it depends on the dog as well - of my 3, I've got Remy who I can train the "purist" way, and very, very quickly; Soli who needs luring, as she's never had any proper training beyond timeouts for behaving badly and isn't keen to try things out for herself (but she is improving), and Opi who actually prefers to train clicker-less most of the time - a fleece tuggy gets her going much better!

The situation can dictate what method to use as well - for example, when I was training the go-and-fetch part of the retrieve for Remy, I could shape it the "purist" way by clicking whenever he made contact with the dumbell and building it up to a carry; but, if I'm training something like walking to heel (loose-lead type, not formal obedience), I'll lure it as I find the dogs find it much harder to figure out that I want them to move round to my side and get into the position I want, regardless of how tiny I make each step.  But the beauty of clicker training is that it's so flexible!

Once a behaviour is established (fluent) you only click and reward what you ASK for and NOT what the dog decides to offer!  So, if you ASK for the sit and he does, then you click and reward. If the dog decides to try and push some of your buttons and comes and plonks himself down in front of you in hope of a treat, you just ignore.

When free shaping when you hit a 'block' you will often find that out of frustration the dog will work through his entire repertoire of behaviours trying to fathom out what it is that you want before trying something new.  However, it is this 'self-learning' that means that what is taught/discovered is so secure.  Also, ultimately you look to 'fade the click'......ie when the behaviour is so established that it makes no difference to the dog whether he is clicked or not.  (This is interesting as in some dogs the click becomes more valued as a reward than the treat!) 

Hope that makes sense.

Progress :D Didn't seem to be getting far, but I've been away so we had a break for a week. First time back to the clicker Duibh IMMEDIATELY went for the 'look left' and was doing it consistently :) (Because it's the first time I've used a clicker I found it almost as exciting as the first time I ever trained a dog to do something :D ). Now - do I try to 'shape' the behaviour first so I'm getting the 'look left' I want (some of them he looks down, or only flicks his head slightly to the left) before I add voice direction? And when I say 'look left' do I try to do it as he performs the behaviour (difficult to time) or do it before the behaviour and wait for him to do it then click and treat? And if I do the latter will he associate the words at all with what he's doing and the click? Thanks :)

Hi
Before moving on to adding cues I would work on the quality of the behaviour that you want.  Sooooo..........if you want a definite look left and not a glance or a look down, it is now only the clear look left that you 'pay' for (ie click and reward)!  Ignore anything that doesn't come up to standard and don't pay for crap!  :-)  Once you have got the quality behaviour 100% then you can move on to adding cues.  Dogs are generally more visual than auditory so I often find it easier to add a visual cue first;  this is often whatever movement or signal I used if I lured the behaviour originally.  Then once that is established I add the verbal/whistle or whatever (new cue old cue).   Hope that helps.

Thanks Jan :) And another question now - I've been doing a bit with the gsp as well - 'look right' and he seemed to have the gist. But tonight we did it in a different room of the house and he didn't seem to have a clue what was wanted - but did as soon as we went into the 'right' room!!! Is the learning area specific, or should it be generalised? Or is it just him & me ;)

Hiya,

That's normal - you need to generalise the behaviour to different locations, so in a new place go back to the beginning and click and treat for any movement of the head and then gradually build from there.  Do this in each new place till he understands that left or whatever cue you use means the same thing wherever he is and wherever you are standing in relation to him.  Aslo as you and your doggie are new to clicker training try not to move on to quickly - if you jump to only clicking and treating really good left turns of the head before the behaviour is well enough established he may give up thinking his efforts aren't working any more.  Have fun, clicker training is the best, because done correctly the dog should get as excited about it as you are feeling at having taught your new behaviour :-)

Karen