I have an eight week old westie I picked him up on Friday NOT from a puppy farm met both parents etc. When I picked him up the breeder gave me 2 worming syringe type things with what looked like a thick Milk of magnesia they had given him the first dose on Friday I then gave him a dose Saturday and Sunday. On Sunday morning I was really alarmed to see him passing live roundworm!!! Couldn't believe it he was eating ok and then went off his food later on sunday and was tired he wouldn't eat a thing. Yesterday he was really bright and sparky ate etc. I took him to my vet for a check up and for his first injection. Vet was brilliant gave him first injection he also realised he had ear mites and gave me surolan to treat this and some drops to put on my puppys neck. NOT frontline but one which also kills roundworm earmites etc. He also gave me the same drops for my elderly westie and drontal, he also said he would reworm them both in 2 weeks!
Vet said that he may be sleepy after injection which he was! He woke me up barking this morning and has not eaten throughout the day and has not been his usually sparky self he has had some diarroeah (SP) well not really diaroeah when he has gone twice it has been runny and it looks like it has eggs in it. Hes drinking water and has had plenty today its just hes really quiet and won't eat and I'm so worried. I will take him to vet tomorrow its just I'm rather inexperienced with puppies my elderly one was a rescue dog. Can the injections cause loss of appetite? Please help. Wendy

Hi Wendy
I'd definately contact the vet if he has lost his appetite especially after a vaccination - much better to be safe than sorry.

He is only 8 weeks old and although I'm not that experienced with puppies, I don't think it is the norm to have a such a young puppy with worms!  You say your puppy has been wormed by you and the vet and he has also had a vaccination within 4 days.  All this plus being taken from his  littermates it's no wonder he is not bouncing around :(  His body has been bombarded with chemicals and he is in unfamiliar surroundings!

I'm sure your vet will have an out of hours service, so just give them a call !

Please let me know how he gets on :)
Maria

>I don't think it is the norm to have a such a young puppy with worms!

In fact, if the dam wasn't wormed effectively during pregnancy, and if the pups themselves haven't been regularly wormed (usually at 3, 5 and 8 weeks) they will be wormy. Pregnancy hormones activate the encysted worms in the mother which lay eggs and these are passed to the pups through the bloodstream before birth and her milk after birth, and the pups are born with worms. In reality it's disappointing to have such an old pup still with worms. :(

Hi Wendy,

I would imagine that what the breeder gave you was Panacur liquid (puppy wormer).  The spot-on drops your vet gave you would probably be Stronghold. 

Bearing in mind that you've only had him since Friday, he's left his (so far) only known environment, plus him being wormy, plus having his vaccinations, it's not unusual for him to be a little knocked out by everything. 

I would agree with taking him to be checked by your vet to be on the safe side but apart from that just keep him calm and quiet and let him settle in.

Hope everything's ok soon :)

Debs

Moving home, with the change of surroundings, routine, water and possibly food as well (though I assume the puppy's breeder gave you a diet sheet (as per Kennel Club requirements) and a supply of the food he's been eating, is very stressful for young puppies, and very often gives them diarrhoea and they often go off their food. I would imagine it's the worming paste (what make is it?) that has added to the diarrhoea, and he probably has a bit of a tummyache from it, which won't be helping his appetite. It's a very good sign that he's drinking well. :)

How many times had the puppy been wormed before you got him? At 8 weeks that should have been his third worming, so I'm very surprised that he was still infested. The vet will probably have used Stronghold on him, which kills fleas, worms and earmites.

All puppies would be born with worms if the mother is not treated before or during gestation.  Even when that is done it is necessary for the litter to be treated effectively as well, as the mother can continue to infect them with the larvae activated in her blood by the reproductive hormones.
It is possible that the treatment given by the breeder was something over the counter that wasn't very effective as none of them are. 
You say it was not a puppy farmer but also say both parents were there to be seen.  Whilst it is not unheard of for a reputable breeder to have an entirely suitable stud that they also own it is by no means an assurance to find both parents there the majority of matings being conducted with studs often many miles away so it can very often be merely a sign of convenience.  Did you source the breeder through the breed club?  I don't think it is good practice to give anybody else a medication, particularly something as strong as a vermicide without telling them exactly what it is.  If there was a bad reaction what guidance could you have given the vet in seeking the best way to treat it?
Having had a dose of worms it is not unusual to have loose stools following as some vermicides break the worms down before they are passed and this is what you see.  Neither is it unusual to find puppies feeling a little under the weather and quite following a vaccination.  This is not an adverse reaction it is merely what you would expect from treatment that you are requiring to have the effect of altering the puppies immune system.  If it had no effect on the body you would not achieve anything.  So long as he is keeping his fluids up I would just see how he goes and hopefully he will be more himself tomorrow :)

He was fed on raw chicken mince

Just that?  With bone?  Where did you find the breeder? 

And what else? Raw chicken mince on its own isn't a balanced diet, and is lacking many of the vitamins and minerals he needs.

Did the breeder give you a diet sheet?  Did they give you the pup's worming record?

It's not always a good thing to see the sire.  Most reputable breeders will travel for the best sire for the litter.  It's rare, though not impossible for their own dog to be the best mate for the bitch. :)

I read from your previous posts that you feed your rescue westie on Naturediet. If Naturediet do a puppy version I would say that, being a balanced complete food, he'd be better eating that. If there isn't a puppy version then any quality puppy complete would be better than plain chicken mince.

Of course to avoid diarrhoea when changing foods you'd need to take a week or so doing it, replacing a little of his current food with a little of the new one, and gradually changing the proportions until after a week or 10 days the change is complete.

Apart from the fact both parents were owned etc, what rings warning bells to me here was the EARMITES! What reputable breeder misses something like that? And in a white dog! (=More obvious.) Isn't the last thing we ALL here do before handing a pup over checking it from top to bottom to make sure there is absolutely nothing wrong?  It isn't all that easy for a dog to get earmites in the first place, cats are more prone to them (my cats got earmites on two occasions, once via a rescue, once via a friend's queen I'd had in to be mated, but the dogs never caught them off the cats despite being in close contact), but even with them they have to catch them off another animal.

So although yes, it is normal for pups to have worms, I'd guess the pups might not have been wormed as much as they should have been as by 8 weeks they should be pretty much worm free. HOWEVER pups should continue to be wormed fortnightly until 12 weeks of age. I wormed my new pup at 9 weeks as she had last been done at 7, and there were NO worms appear then.

By the way westielover, I notice you live in Derbyshire -now don't name names as that shouldn't be done here, but did you buy your pup locally and did the breeder have other breeds? What town was it? PM me if you want with the details, I just have a gut feeling here about who MIGHT have bred your pup -I could be wrong!

Sorry forgot to mention I relocated to Bristol in August 2005. I bought the pup in South Wales. He didn't have earmites when I paid the deposit on him and I went out of my way to ensure that it wasn't a puppy farm. I am concerned that my own in experience is to blame. I shall be at my vets tomorrow morning!

Took pup to vets first thing this morning. They think its a gastro thing. They've decided tio keep him in as hes only a pup and hes been put on a drip as hes quite dehydrated. They are also giving him anti biotics and an anti sickness thing. Gutted hope he will be ok.

Oh dear it's understandable to feel as you do, but rest assured he is in the best place!
I'll keep everything crossed for him and please keep us posted with his progress.
Maria x

I'm sure they will take the greatest of care with him and have him rehydrated very quickly :)  Have you been back in touch with the breeder as informed them of what has been happening as they may want to review their whole worming and parasite checking procedures.  Did he come with insurance?

Poor little chap but it sounds as if he's found a good home with you :)
You're giving him every chance, so fingers crossed that he will make a good recovery.
xx

Dont punish yourself for where you had your puppy from, and remember everyone has different ideas of what is a puppy farm. To me, it means lots of dogs kept in awful circumstances, sick and sorry and consistantly bred from, and not knowing if the Kc papers have any relationship to the puppy in question. Since reading posts here, I realise that this is not the only type of puppy farm, and then there are people who put two pet dogs together, not knowing much about breeding and produce lots of litters of puppies. They don't have the experience to effectivly produce a good puppy, regardless of parentage. Hense, the worms, the ears, fleas etc. None of these should have been present in a correctly reared litter, regardless of you buying from a show person, or from someone who has the occasional 'hobby' litter. Neither should you have been given a wormer to give yourself, this should have been obtained from your vet. This was not for you to know though, it would appear the breeder was being generous.

As I said, don't punish yourself, or feel guilty, because you didn't go through a breed club, or buy from a show kennel, I'm sure you got the puppy from what you thought was a good, home reared litter, and was happy to see both parents so you could judge the nature of both. The puppy has had an awful lot of chemicals and I'm not suprised he's a bit 'off colour'. Give him time, if you are worried by all means consult the vet, I would want to change the food to a good puppy food, I don't think mince alone is good enough. As I think this breed suffers with sensitive skin, I would try a good complete, such as JWB or Arden grange, or of course, the puppy version of the food you already feed, naturediet?

I can only wish you the very best with him, and wouldlove to know how he gets on.

Just posted and read your post.........feel gutted for you and can only hope he pulls through. best wishes x

Just had a phonecall from the vet they are keeping him in overnight. He is really very ill and they are taking bloods and stool samples to test for Parvo, he isn't passing any blood though which is a good sign. After being on the drip for a while he perked up a little bit so they syringed some food into him however he brought this back up. He has lost 200g in weight since Monday and he only weighed a kg then. The vet has also mentioned the possibility of it being a shunt which affects the liver. I insured him from Friday when I picked him up however because any illness which begins within 14 days means that I have no cover for him. Am so so gutted, can't stop crying poor little mite.

I'm very so he is not picking up as well as you hoped.  At least you sought attention in good time which has got to be giving him the best possible chance.  Did he not come with any insurance cover, most breeders arrange 6 weeks, this does not cost them anything so seems absurd not to do it.  Have you spoken to the breeder about this if he has got possible Parvo they really need to know to alert the other puppy purchasers.

I'm sorry to hear that he is so poorly,  poor little man :(

You have done the very best you possibly could for him and he is in safe hands, I do understand how worried you must feel though but try to keep positive.

Normally when you have a puppy from a breeder they arrange a 6 week cover for pet insurance which begins as soon as you bring him home, so it might be worth checking it out with the breeder.  Also I think you should speak to the breeder about the problems your boy has had, because if it is parvo then it's highly likely all the litter will be affected too!

I'm keeping everything crossed for you and please keep us up to date with his progress.

Maria x

The breeders 6 weeks free insurance still doesn't cover the puppy for the first 14 days.
I hope he improoves quickly.
Sam

Then it has changed.  The Pet Plan forms I have here from my last litter says instant cover infact it is called "The instant Puppy Policy"  I wonder if you are thinking of new policies taken out by owners independent of these 6 week cover type policies.

I think your right, sorry must be having a blonde moment!  Just looked at the instant puppy policy and can't find anything, as you said must be just on the new policies.

mine was done through kennel club (insurance) and that was also instant policy (thankgod) as I ended up using it when my pup had her first vax and that went very wrong :rolleyes:

Poor little mite. :( At least he has found a good home with you. Liver shunt can happen in any breed but it is not a common problem in Westies (it is in my breed). When the wee chap is a bit better and is eating again your vet will be able to do a very accurate test to see if this is the problem or not. The test has to be done after the puppy has a meal which is why your vet is not doing it now. But going on the symptoms you have related here it doesn't sound like liver shunt.

I am saddened by your post.  Please don't blame yourself, alot of owners have been caught unaware, my first yorkie was super so I went back to the same breeder 3yrs later and when I got him home I discovered he had ear mites, worms and lice.  Easily got rid of the worms & mites but the lice took many hours of bone combing.  I sincerely hope your puppy is well soon and that you can begin to enjoy your companion.

Westielover how is your little man doing now,any better?

Have you been in contact with his 'breeder' yet? I would be very interested to hear what she has to say about the whole thing,especially the worms,ear mites and no insurance issue.She also needs to be alerted of the possible parvo,because this affects every other pup in the litter aswell as her other dogs,and the other owners need to be alerted immediately,as some may not be as an alert owner as you and may miss the signs.

Are westies the only breed she has at home,are they home reared or kennelled?

I've been thinking about this little pup a lot and really hoping that he pulls through.  He's had a lot to contend with in such a short space of time.
How is he this morning ?

Is the puppy Kc reg? if the policy is instant with them, then the puppy is covered? Or is there a clause with them, something about transfer of ownership? Certainly worth a try, as this bill will be expensive, and every little helps.

With my last litter I phoned the KC insurance department just before the each puppy left to activate the cover notes, so each pup was insured in its new owner's name from the moment it left my house.

Have just spoken to a friend who has recently bought a puppy, hers was covered by Pet Plan, but on the first page of  her Kc document it says that to arrange the free insurance you have to transfer ownership within 10 days of purchase and contact the Kc healthcare team by phone or online to activate cover. On the back it says to tick a box for cover, or to activate cover ring the number, or go online. Sounds a bit 'open ended' to me if you need cover from day one?

It's likely the system's changed since my last litter - it was 7 years ago! :o

UPDATE

Puppy stayed in vets overnight. Vet convinced its salmonella or some other type of food poisoning. He was put on a drip that put liquid straight into his bone marrow and antibiotics as well. During the night the vet reported he was alot brighter and had wandered about his cage, and had even wagged his tail.
I went to see himthis morning they had syringed some food into him at 1am however he had brought this up half an hour later. He did seem brighter, tail wagging however the issue is to whether he can keep food down or not! He is to be given more anti sickness drugs and they are going to try feeding him at lunchtime. They are also giving him glucose.
I am living on the hope that he seemed brighter this morning and hope he can fight this? Will he come back from this?
I contacted breeder there is no insurance so I'm left with huge bills, however I will be contacting RSPCA and the Kennel Club as I know that he is showing dogs at crufts? Had no sleep am so so worried about him, really want him to fight this and pull through.
Thank you to everyone for you kind comments and support. It wonderful to have you there I live alone and its so hard at times like this.

I'm glad things are looking a little more positive for you both. Fingers crossed he makes he good recovery. Please keep us updated. :)

I am glad they seem to be getting to the bottom of this and hope he continues to improve.
If is was food poisoning I am not sure that it could be traced back to the breeder as you had him for 4 days before he started with the vomitting so it seems more likely he ate something since.  The chicken mince seems a prime canditate to me I'm afraid.  Chicken carries salmonella and once you mince meat you give it vastly more surface area on which it can multiply.  Was it purchased from a human food source and how were you storing it.
Not sure what the RSCPA involvement would entail unless you think the breeders welfare conditions were suspect.  Do you and in what way?  Similarly, if the breeder complied with the KC code of ethics I am not sure what they would do either.

Really pleased to hear your little pup is putting up a good fight :)
Every postive sign, however small, is encouraging. Hopefully the anti-sickness medication will work quickly and his food will stay down !
Keep us posted :)

Some breeders choose Pet Plan rather than the KC insurance and that is what your friend has got and it will be covered from the moment the breeder telephoned them to activate it.  The KC insurance is just another option for her which again would be activated as soon as she telephoned.  Yes, she would then have to go on to register the transfer within 10 days to ensure any claim would be met but the cover starts immediately. 

Reading the original post again, I would wonder if the breeder could say that whatever ails puppy now is not his fault, but more to do with the double dosing of wormer (the one he gave with the puppy and the one the vet applied) coupled with the vaccination. An awful lot of chemicals to be given within a 3 day period, especially with one so very young. He could also suggest (and I'm not saying this) that the puppy could well have picked something up that affected him, or was fed food that has affected him, whilst in his new home. If he was fine when he left, and none of the others have any problems, who could blame him for this assumption. I am suprised though, that someone quite so high up in the dog world would breed a litter 'without papers' (if I'v got that bit right) or would sell a puppy without papers, or hand over a wormer for someone inexperienced to give, rather than advise the previous worming and say that the next wormer is due and to have advice from the vet regarding it.  All seems a bit odd to me.

I just hope and pray the puppy pulls through. Out of interest, what does the breeder have to say about the puppy? Do you know if he is an accredited breeder. as the Kc would be interested if he is, also I would imagine any breed club he belongs to.

If tests prove it to be salmonella or other food poisoning then the wormer and vaccination will have had nothing to do with it; salmonella is a bacterium caught from food, not medication.

I agree totally that the breeder's behaviour regarding the worming and lack of diet sheet etc sounds less than ideal though.

The minced chicken remains my prime suspect.  If I was going to serve minced chicken I think I would do it fresh from a thoroughly washed chicken.

>I agree totally that the breeder's behaviour regarding the worming and lack of diet sheet etc sounds less than ideal though.

On the face of things this seems to be the only transgressions that anybody could take any action on and that would be the KC for breaking their code.  I doubt they would do much but I think the breeder certainly should be told about all that has happened and take a look at their practices there seems much to be improved. 
I don't understand why any breeder would not offer insurance, it does not cost them anything!  I forget, though, are there restrictions on numbers of litters etc to qualify for the free 6 week cover notes?

Basically, you must not have more than 3 breeds that you breed from, and if the pup is pedigree it MUST be KC registered to qualify for the PetPlan puppy insurance. (Just checked.) However if you have a crossbred litter you can insure it. Actually this explains a bit. I was SO miffed a couple of years ago when my Papillon pup wasn't insured when I got him as he had an accident and needed £500 worth of treatment within those first few weeks. But he ISN'T registered so that explains that.......

>Basically, you must not have more than 3 breeds that you breed from, and if the pup is pedigree

Well, that may explain why this pup was not covered.

>it MUST be KC registered to qualify for the PetPlan puppy insurance. (Just checked.) However if you have a crossbred litter you can insure it.

How silly :)  If your pup is not registered you could reasonably argue you cannot be sure it is pure bred.

Is that just Pet Plan insurance, or is it the KC one too? Because if that is the case, he must be breeding a few different litters of puppies then!

Edited to say breeds of puppies, not litters

I don't know calmstorm, I was just reading the PetPlan puppy charter.

I think that awful very cheap equine insurance supplier (no names mentioned) that also insure dogs, cats boats etc will insure anything within their 12 week free insurab=nce cover :

There is nothing to prevent you naming them, unless it is your company :).  Does their cover commence immediately?

Thanks Isabel, wasn't sure about the ethics or tos if I named them. They are E&L and their cover I believe commences immediately, if they pay up is another question if needed to claim x