I've discovered that there is a three week (10 Downing Street) petition in favour of allowing breeders to dock by banding just like farmers are allowed to do with lambs, after April 6th.

Anyone interested in signing can PM me for the link.

Polite request.:) Please don't add any anti docking posts to this thread. This is for information only. :)

Dawn R.

I have seen it Dawn.  I'm not antidocking ;) so perhaps I will be allowed to say I will not be signing and I think people need to think whether it is a good thing for Joe Bloggs to be allowed to dock, by any method.  Maybe if they passed some sort of veterinary supervised course but, personally, I would only like to see vets being allowed to continue myself.  I know you don't want a debate but I think people need to think of these things :)

I found it last week and signed nursey.  I think it's a good idea to draw it to the attention of Champdoggers. :)

Well, I am entitled to air my opinions, just like you. I think  docking is cruel and unnecessary, on any animal (except in cases of tail injury, of course). I LOVE the recent trend towards NOT docking, and always compliment the owners on their dogs' tails. Congratulations to all those owners and breeders who choose not to dock their dogs.

Hi

I have just come on to CD to ask about this method as someone has mailed the link to me and I am not sure about it. I dont want to sign as I now nothing about banding and have only heard bad reports of it. Did a quick google and found a very good website showing it being done on a litter of dobes and it did look ok.

I would much prefer a vet to cut but if this isnt going to happen is banding the way forward?

Could anyone tell me more about it. Is it a good method, if so why havnt we heard more about it? and would this only be acceptable with working dogs??

Wendy

I have had both methods used in the past and had no problems with either.  I think you can present pros and cons for both the important thing, as I see it, is that it is done by someone competent in their chosen method.

To be honest I'd doubt if this would happen, because docking by BREEDERS is already banned, and that includes banding -only vets can do it now (before the general ban comes in) and of course not many vets will still do it.  If this was to be allowed then they'd have to overturn things and let breeders dock again, or say vets can do it -but as before most probably wouldn't.

Apologies if anyone was offended by my above post, absolutely no offence was intended, nor any criticism of people who don't agree with my view. However, this IS a very contentious issue, and any debate HAS to be a good thing. Apologies again to those who don't think this was the place for it.

When a poster asks a question and does NOT want a debate, they will often say so in their post....as the OP did on this occasion.

Please keep ON topic everyone

To be strictly accurate ;) the OP requested 'no anti-docking posts', not no debate ... but I take your point. :)

It's a tricky one Mel :), most of us have been, trying ;), not to respond and escalate it into a debate but if people are giving a reason why they do not want to sign I am not sure it is fair to disallow it as it is strictly speaking on topic. 
I have been recently looking at another site when CD is quiet, don't worry I will not be joining :) and they have "support forums" where people are only allowed to post in support of something.  What actually happens in those in one camp use it to lob out insults to those in another camp safely hiding behind posting restrictions :D
Personally, I would hate to see something like that here on Champdogs and, providing the TOS are followed I welcome anyone's opinion and let them have there say as long as I have mine :)

As banding is used on lambs, who even at birth are very much more advanced than 3-day whelps, and it doesn't bother them in the slightest, I can't see any logical reason why it would be inhumane for puppies.

Downing Street petitions seem to be worth diddly squat!

IMO this petition is barking up the wrong tree for reasons that Goldmali has given.

Unless those in power are prepared to listen to the reasons why certain breeds are docked they are not going to overturn this new ruling, unfortunately. 

Perhaps a petition to ban docking of lambs tails might instigate debate into what actually constitutes cruelty.  If it's cruel to dock dogs' tails then it must be cruel to dock any other animals?  I'm sure farmers would have far more leverage than dog owners and if they argued good examples why docking isn't cruel then the dog breeders could use this as a precedence.

Quote; [Well, I am entitled to air my opinions, just like you. I think  docking is cruel and unnecessary, on any animal (except in cases of tail injury, of course). I LOVE the recent trend towards NOT docking, and always compliment the owners on their dogs' tails. Congratulations to all those owners and breeders who choose not to dock their dogs. ]

Agree completely.  Perhaps someone should try banding thier finger till it drops off and then tell us whether it hurts or not.  Only difference is a dogs tail is an extension of its spine so has lots more nerve endings.

>a dogs tail is an extension of its spine so has lots more nerve endings.

If you add "when fully developed" you'd be absolutely right. However a newborn whelp isn't fully developed - it's blind and deaf, for starters - so the analogy doesn't work.

So your telling me that the it grows later in life and is not there in a pup.

That what grows later in life? Nerves and brain certainly continue to develop and grow as the puppy does.

Yes, gestation is just 9 weeks remember :)  Developement is centered on what is required to survive initially ie suckling, ability to detect warmth and move towards it, being able to see, hear or wag a tall isn't.

The lamb banding is a good and interesting point indeed -whatever one's opinion of docking, for or against. (I'm on the fence because I can see both sides.) My dad breeds sheep, in Sweden, yes small scale only -but he doesn't dock. Don't know if big scale farmers do or not. (Actually, just Googled, and docking of sheep is illegal in Sweden.)

I'm on the fence with this one too, I can see pros and cons to both sides, but I saw a stunning young rottie today with a full tail.  What a beauty.   I can't believe how a full tail in this lovely breed makes them look even more stunning.    For the record, I agree with Isabel, I don't think it's a good idea for Joe Bloggs to be docking either.

I'm on the fence too. I personally prefer the look of a dog with a full tail (one reason why I chose a tailed breed), but I don't think docking is actually cruel - unless it's done very short, which is illegal when docking lambs. As long as the tail's left long enough to cover the vulva (as in sheep) then I don't see much of a problem.

I'm on the fence too. When I hear a good argument for docking, I think "Yeah that's right, it shouldn't be banned!" but then when I hear a good argument against docking I think "I agree, it should be banned!" :D :D
I try to stay out of debates because I'm useless! :D

Anyone who has looked after a flock of sheep when there has been a sudden flush of new growth when the weather is warm will understand the need for docking lowland lambs!   Fly strike is a horrible thing - the lamb could be eaten alive if it's not spotted very quickly!

Hill breeds, who don't normally experienced lush green pastures, aren't normally docked , as the tail provides cover against the extreme weather on the hill.

Jo
(with my farming hat on...)

That's exactly what I was taught when I did a flock management course at agricultural college. :) Also the poor grazing on the hills means that the sheep produce small, hard, dry droppings which don't stick to the wool of the tail. Yet another difference is that the wool of hill breeds is generally harder and less absorbent than the softer wool of the lowland breeds.

But really the argument against docking is not just a pain one. a canine uses their tails as a very important part of their communication system, why remove it just for the sake of vanity? (As very few breeds actually need their tails docked to prevent damage anymore.) I certainly don't think we should allow any one who calls themselves a breeder (which could be any joe public) to mutilate an animal whether its painful or not.

My cockers have never seemed to have any trouble at all expressing themselves both to humans and other dogs :)

I can see the benefits of docking certain breeds but can't see the point in all traditionally docked breeds.  Certainly docking for vanity is not in my argument.  I have nothing against tails whatsoever, it's not about the aesthetics for me it's about cost benefit to the dog and it will be interesting to see how the breed that I have fares with tails and tail damage.

I don't believe in docking for vanity either and I would not like to say on behalf of any other breed than the ones I know about but I feel I must keep an open mind as to whether any breed has a valid reason when I don't know.

Someone else on another forum I'm on also called tail docking mutilation and it isn't.

mu·ti·late      /ˈmyutlˌeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoot-l-eyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing. 1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting. 

It is mutilation, its chopping off something a dog was born to have naturally. 
I have a JRT who has his tail and its wonderful to see him happily wagging it and expressing to other dogs how friendly he is.  I also have a Rottie xGSD who had her tail removed very short and its very hard to see the stump moving so gauge how happy or not she is.  Other dogs have had problems reading her feelings too and she has been attacked on many occasions which has now induced fear aggression in her.  So sad as if she had her tail perhaps theres a good chance she would not have been attacked.
There was no need for my big girls tail to be cut off and it makes me angry people think its ok to go around doing it to any dog.  I hope it is banned, too late for my girl but may save others from the same fate.

Eye contact has a lot more to do with sending messages to their fellow than tail carriage.  I have a breed with a high set tightly curled tailed, you would think that would signal to other dogs that they were cocky and aggressive, but they have no trouble being accepted as he easy going sociable canines they are.

I know dogs of many traditionally docked breeds who don't seem to have an communication problems,a d plenty of fully tailed ones that do.

>It is mutilation, its chopping off something a dog was born to have naturally.

Like dew claws, testicles and womb?

Testicles and womb being removed can save many many lives  and they are out cold under a general anesthetic.  Docking tails does not compare in the least.

>Testicles and womb being removed can save many many lives 

It can also cause death, behavioural change and incontinence. As with tail docking it's cost benefit decision. 

What about dew claws?  From what breeders say the removal of these causes pain as you are actually clipping off bone, imagine that?  Apart from the removal of dew claws causing more pain than docking a tail at a time when the tail is just cartilage, what's the difference?

My dogs all have thier dew claws.  I havn't said anywhere I like to see these ripped out either as they are used by dogs to help hold onto things.
The health benefits of spaying and nuetering are immense.  On another site someone done a topic saying thier bitch had pyo and apart from one or two every person who replied had  had one or more bitches with Pyo and some sadly died.
I myself have had dogs with pyo 3 of which survived and one died.  I lost a bitch to mammory tumours which could have been avoided had she been spayed early.  I have also lost a dog to testicular cancer.
Now I no longer show all my dogs are spayed or nuetered at around 6 months old, and of all of them I have never had a health problem related to spaying etc or change of coat, or growing bigger etc.
I have however had a bitch go incontinent who was entire at 3 years of age and a male dog at 2 years entire who's coat went all wooly and awful.  Good job they hadn't been done or I daresay spaying and nuetering would have been blamed.
I also have a friend who had two entire bitches get incontinent aged 4 and 6 years, but none of her spayed ones ever have.

I have no doubt in my mind that the overwhelming evidence is there that coats are altered, not that that matters much in the scheme of things, following neutering and incontinence will occur more frequently, which to many people and dogs does matter even to the point that the dogs life becomes without quality.  However the benefits are also there so have no issue with people who choose to do this, even those that go against the general advise of waiting for a first season however there are benefits to be had from docking too even if we can't all see them :)

>I havn't said anywhere I like to see these ripped out

Inaccurate emotive language which doesn't help your point at all. Dewclaws are removed with clippers, not 'ripped out'. And although some people say their dogs use them to hold things (and I've no reason to call them liars), none of my previous dogs with dewclaws have used them, and I've never seen anyone else's (in my current breed) that have them use them either. I have, however, seen extremely painful injuries suffered during ordinary pet activity when, a dew claw has, in your words, been 'ripped out'.

I'm sorry you lost your bitch to mammary tumours. However because male animals also get mammary tumours you can't be sure she wouldn't have got them even if she'd been spayed early - or indeed at all.

None of my bitches have had pyo. None of my entire dogs has had testicular cancer.

It is medical fact that 20% (according to reports in Veterinary Journals) of spayed bitches will develop urinary incontinence. That doesn't really matter in kennelled, unhousetrained bitches, but previously clean family pets get extremely distressed by it.

>>It is mutilation, its chopping off something a dog was born to have naturally.

My point in responding to your comment above was to highlight that we "mutilate" dogs in more ways than docking tails but we don't all jump up and down calling it cruel or mutilation.  You can call the removal of dogs' tails docking, amputation or mutilation the fact remains that if you are going to call it mutilation you have to accept that the removal of anything else is mutilation too. 

I know about the benefits of spaying bitches which is why I had my dog spayed (or mutilated, just a play on words).  She is only 3 years old and is now incontinent.  She was excellent in the housetraining department besides which I am here most of the time so she never has had to cross her legs for very long.  It was quite bewildering to her, not to mention me, when she peed all over the floor in front of me while she was asleep.  When I found drops of urine and she came to investigate what I was looking at, one sniff told her whose urine it was and her ears and tail would drop and she was creep away.  I have never scolded her for accidents whilst a puppy or when the incontinence developed so it just shows how confusing and distressing this was for her. The incontinence means she has to take hormones for the rest of her life, hormones that cause changes in behaviour. 

I was assured at the vets that incontinence was very rare (well they would say that wouldn't they?).

Don't know if it is still there but there was a video showing the banding of a Boxer litter with Mum present on the Council Of Docked Breeds Website.

It is the method preferred by most of the dobe breeders I know, and not one Vets often use.

My breed that I show and breed isn't docked breed but I have seen it done twice ( banded) no problem whatsoever. Not a peep out of the puppies.

I have  a Pet who is docked though and I would prefer that breed stayed docked personally  :-)

Can you not put the link up?? we have every other type of link    People either sign it or they don't/ I can't see what that would breach TOC.

Yes, it's been linked before. 

Mod note: Please pm Isabel if you want the link

Sorry, thought you meant the docking video.

Thread closed at the request of the OP