I know the scientist will tell us that dogs are just exercising their muscles and nerves when they twitch and run in their sleep.  I have just watched my little TT wagging her tail furiously while sound asleep.  Surely this isn't exercise she is without a doubt enjoying her 'dream'.

I'd say they do :)
Mine run, whine, bark, even growl in their sleep :P

Same here:rolleyes:

Sienna sleeps like a log.. only snores (how very ladylike :rolleyes:)
Storm on the other hand Yips,woo-woo's,growls....and his paws go ten the dozen (really annoying when he's lying on me)
They must enter REM just as we do.
Be interesting to know definatively..Ive always just presumed they do

Do scientists really say that!  I am surprised I've always thought that dogs dream, I can almost enjoy the dreams along with every dog I've ever watched sleep, it always looks to me as though they are chasing rabbits, running and woofing as they go, they surely don't exercise their voice boxes too do they? ;-)  I'm shocked that they don't feel dogs have the ability to dream, I'd query that any day.

I think the scientists are wrong on this one too :rolleyes:
I'm positive dogs dream :)

Charlie was having the best dream ever yesterday - I agree its dreaming not excercise - he never makes that noise exercising either! :)

I think these scientists have never owned a dog :)

;) you could be right.

I've always felt it really arrogant of scientists to assume that humans are the only animals to have dreams/emotions, be able to plan etc.  While trying to avoid anthropomorphism they completely forget that humans are animals too  

It used to be said that animals didn't feel pain, I think that one's well and truely disproven now and after vast expense I'm sure that what we observe regularly and identify as dreaming will one day be confirmed by scientists.   After all it's only recently that they realised lurking in the undergrowth was no way to try to observe 'natural' behaviour LOL  wierd that, since I'm darn sure that I wouldn't behave naturally if there was someone lurking behind the sofa in my living room, and stealthily following me to the shops but I could never quite be sure :p :D

It may be old stuff I have been reading but I do remember a recent animal program on primate behaviour and the commentator stating quite clearly that monkeys and great apes dream demonstrating intelligence and the ability to go over things in their sleep.

I have always had dogs that run and woof in their sleep but never one that waged its tail showing so much joy.  The dog experts would tell us that the joy a dog demonstrates when we come home is just welcoming back a member of the pack and hoping for a regurgitated meal.  I for one would love to do a study with my little girl which I would hope prove that they are dreaming in the same way we do.

edited to say: scientist are obviousley changing their minds about this the more I look into it.  Interesting video on this page http://winniewong.typepad.com/shelby/2004/09/do_dogs_dream.html

The dog experts would tell us that the joy a dog demonstrates when we come home is just welcoming back a member of the pack and hoping for a regurgitated meal.

My dog must really have the hump with me then! :-D If that was the case she shouldn't even bother greeting me anymore as I never regurgitate for her. :-D

Don't you? You Bad Mother!! ;) :D :D

I've no doubts that my dog dreams.  Her feet waggle and her breathing rate changes and she even makes little noises.  Makes us laugh.  What I wonder though is what she makes of it when she wakes up?  There she is chasing something and have a fine old time and then with a start she's in the living room with us.:D

My girls dream and wag thier tails in sleep, they woof and mutter and have a great time.
I think the scientists are a bit confused about this one too

Don't want my illusions shattered thanks scientists - when I watch my 14.1/2 year old golden oldie dreaming with his legs going like the clappers it makes me so happy to think he is enjoying himself in his dreams even though he can no longer run around in real life.

It has been said before hasn't it - you can't rely on everything you find on the net - but I have just come across an article on dreaming dogs.  It says that a study in America (doesn't say who or when) scientist removed the part of a dogs brain that inhibited movement during sleep (how they worked that one out I don't know) but the results on several different types of dogs were amazing.  It stated that a pointer got up and started sniffing around, when the instruments attached to it clearly showed it to be asleep and almost went to point.  A similar thing happened with a cocker who stood up and started snuffling around as if searching, again sound asleep.  The article said that because of this sleeping control mechanism in the normal canine brain, and if it is intact, the dog will only twitch, vocalise and exhibit rapid eye movement.  Without the control it actually carriers out its dream.

A further note said 'I wonder what my dog thinks when I wake it up to go out for a walk.  Does it see a clear difference between the dream it has just been having about running in the woods and the walk to the back door or is it all part of the same dream.

Who knows, but as for listening to the experts in future I will be listening to all us dog owners who know it to be true 'Dogs are only human aren't they.

>I've always felt it really arrogant of scientists to assume that humans are the only animals to have dreams/emotions, be able to plan etc.  While trying to avoid anthropomorphism they completely forget that humans are animals too

Couldn't agree more!  :-)

I think they have to. Milo woofs, whines, howls,runs and, the proof it's a dream, growls in his sleep sometimes. That's a 'muscle' that's never used when he's awake. :-D

NOT to start an argument on here,BUT,yet again another pointless experiment on dogs,more suffering and pain,and all to find out about dogs dreams,and supposed limited movment during sleep.Thats really going to save the world isn't it.

I think it was done to try to discover more about how the brain works, and how to help those who've suffered brain injury. Yes, that could save someone's world. :)

I'm sure they dream and have emotions.  If dogs don't have emotions etc. how come they can be anxious, nervous, happy etc???  Just seems strange to say they don't hve emotions when they can be so different under different situations.

Between you JG, and Isabel,I never get the last word on these matters,so not even going to try,:rolleyes:only that,a very fine line between what is necessary, and what is not,and all I ask is that you bear that in mind.

>Between you JG, and Isabel,I never get the last word on these matters

:rolleyes: I make a single post on an entire thread and I get slated. :rolleyes: Are only certain people allowed to voice ideas now? You stated a view, and so did I. Surely that's fair and democratic?

Well yes, democratic of course,your not being slated either,er tounge in cheek? I thought I was being light hearted aswell.

Don't know anything about this particular research but have to agree that some research seems to be done just for the sake of doing it rather than actually achieving anything.

I know of no scientific experiments, but my own experience of our own dogs, over 40 years, leads me to the conclusion that most definitely, as dogs get older, they dream.

It's when ours reach the age of 8 or 9, when their physical capabilities start slowing down, that I have noticed that when asleep in front of the fire, the ears twitch, the nose wrinkles, the tail starts thumping, the legs start moving - and little "yips" are emitted by the dreamer.   As Simba, Gemma, Jet, Tramp and Purdey got older, so their dreams seemed to become more frequent.

And Thor (who is 8 next week) has started dreaming now.

Margot

Don't think it is just an older age thing Margot, as my youngster who is not yet 2 dreams very enthusiastically as well. :)

Surely any knowledge gained on the brain would be of value, there is so much to learn.  Don't know where this research was conducted but at least in the UK all animal experiment have to be justified to an ethics committee in order to obtain a license.  Unfortunately there are those who do their utmost to prevent experiments being conducted in this country under those controls.

Wasn't talking of this particular research Isabel, about which I know nothing.  More about the research you hear about all the time and think "so what was the point in doing that" or "well, that's earth shattering NOT" or "I could have told them that without them spending many years and a huge budget on it" :D

Oh, Yes that sort :)  So often, all they had to do was come to Champdogs and ask.  There is nothing in life we could not put them straight on :D

>NOT to start an argument on here<

Then don't :D !

Both Mars and Min used to dream , and Moose has always done as well.

Dudley however has been the odd one out She has never chased Rabbits :D :D

>Between you JG, and Isabel,I never get the last word on these matters

'scuse me?   Do I know you?

There was a post a long time ago,on a similar subject,I cant remember what started it now,but I remember you replied,as written before tounge in cheek,was not meant to be spiteful and I am suprised it has been taken this way.

Appologies accepted   Perhaps if you choose a better emoticon next time it might avoid mixup :)

I get snores, woofs, whimpers, whines, growls, tail wags and legs going;  I love to hear them sleeping.  Don't feel the same with OH's snores though.. :-D

I love watching half grown pups dream - about playing and suckling :D :D  soo sweet! :) :)  and our last dog's face used to contort into scowls, frowns, snarls while his toes twithed, his legs pumped like mad and his tail twitched and thumped.  I think he used to be glad to wake up for a rest!! :D :D :D

okay here's the link although I did say I don't believe everything I hear.
http://www.troyangrignon.com/blog/_archives/2004/10/17/161929.html

I was talking to a lady who runs a rescue near me, she mentioned new research coming from Japan of all places that dogs actually possess the same primary emotions that humans have, we know they experiance fear,  so why wouldn't they dream, are scientists and indeed owners reluctant to admit that dogs and many other animals are actually very similar to humans because of of the need to feel superior?

I've always fondly imagined that when my dogs yip and twitch and growl in their sleep that they're having a marvellous dream about chasing rabbits or something, and that their physical actions are limited by the brain chemical which is released to prevent dreams being acted out. I've seen film of experiments where this chemical is over-ridden and the dreamer (in a case I remember, a kitten) was filmed, fast asleep, hunting and pouncing on its 'prey'. This was, years ago, taken as conclusive proof that animals do dream.

What puzzled me, though, was when I've watched my litters of pups doing the same yipping and twitching, but at less than 7 days of age. At this age they're still blind and deaf; if they've never seen or heard anything what on earth are they dreaming about?

What puzzled me, though, was when I've watched my litters of pups doing the same yipping and twitching, but at less than 7 days of age. At this age they're still blind and deaf; if they've never seen or heard anything what on earth are they dreaming about? 

I have wondered the same sort of thing about people who are born blind and deaf  but still manage to communicate with other people through sign language. How difficult it must be to envisage a world that you have never seen or heard.

Helen Keller's story is one I really will have to read. :)

Could they be dreaming using something in their genetic memory?

Folk memory, you mean? I've thought about that, but isn't it getting a bit close to reincarnation? And if so, why would a dog be reincarnated as another dog? I thought the point was to advance.

There must be something in their brains that is inherited otherwise why would a collie be interested in sheep and adopt herding mannerisms without every having seen another one do it.  Perhaps this is what puppies are doing, acting out in some automated way what they have inherited of the inclination to hunt.  Maybe we are all wrong and dogs don't actually dream but it is something even deeper than that.................................. Maybe the scientists are right! :D

Not folk memory but the memory carried down the generations through the genes, the same sort of memory that makes retriever puppies retrieve before they've been shown how to.

I read that genetic memory could be the reason why people often have a sense of De ja vu  (sp) an ancestor may have experienced a similar place or been there and the memory is somehow retained in the genes.

Do you remember the story about the little boy who calmly explained to the Vet and his parents that the death of the family dog was because people are born needing to learn how to be good and kind and loving but dogs are born already knowing that so they don't have to stay here as long?  So dogs are already advanced.  ;)

> people are born needing to learn how to be good and kind and loving but dogs are born already knowing  > that so they don't have to stay here as long?

Is that the same reason why the nicest people always go far too young? It would make sense.

I'm CERTAIN my dogs dream. I don't see how else you'd explain the eye movements, paddling paws, yips barks whines and growls. What I want to know is what they dream ABOUT! I've often wondered if it would be possible to work out what it was by measuring their brain waves, but I don't suppose it is...

Well, Banya definitely dreams about things we've been doing during the day as I can tell from the way she moves her legs! ;)

Lindsay
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