Bad news reported for several breeds :(

Not that I like it, but it's evolution isn't it?
Karen :rolleyes:

No, it's fashion :rolleyes:, not evolution.

Selective breeding of dogs was never about evolution :) but I do accept your point that this may be a reflection of demand if that is what you mean.  However, as the, apparent, replacement 'must haves' have so many health and welfare issues attached I am not sure we should just allow it to happen without the public being better informed.

I read that too. How can the message be got across that designer crossbreeds have become 'common' and not trendy?

Not sure, dear old Paul Keevil is doing his best to promote the threatened breeds but the competition animals, the crossbreeds, as rather beloved of the media aren't they :( and getting masses of promotion.

Never head of the jackabee (jrt x beagle) but as the harrassed owner of a terrier/hound cross I can't say I can beleive they are popular, mine answers to the nickname LITTLE GIT for good reasons !!!!

Thinking of the bloodhound in particular - would someone who had a home suitable for a Labradoodle? What I am trying to say is perhaps there is just not enough demand for bloodhounds because they are such a specialised breed - and its not down to designer crosses at all?

The publicity given to designer crosses doesn't help, though. The other week I overheard a couple discussing what 'that funny-looking dog over there' was, and they decided it must be a labradoodle. In fact it was an apricot standard poodle, in pet clip, but that didn't occur to them! Too many people have no idea what breeds there are available anyway.

I personally don't think that the celebs and their followers going for the designer, i.e cross breed dogs would possibly have gone for any of the breeds on the list if they weren't there.

Crufts is all well and good to parade the less asked for breeds, but a wider idea would be to have a few on the odd TV series seeing this is what makes people go for selective dogs, just how easily we are swayed by tv today:rolleyes: Get the Bloodhound on Blue Peter, look at what Columbo did for the Bassett. ;-)

I would hate to see any of those breeds disappear and could it maybe be an idea if workable that the KC and breed clubs could perhaps sponsor 5 or so selective breeders from each breed to keep the lines going, even if that means many of the unwanted pups are shipped abroad for now, fashions change and breeds are constantly in favour, and then out of favour again, but things usually turn around again, it would be a shame to loose any of these breeds.

>I personally don't think that the celebs and their followers going for the designer, i.e cross breed dogs would possibly have gone for any of the breeds on the list if they weren't there.

I agree.  No doubt the designer dogs are fashionable but where are the figures that show that they are more popular than labs, cockers & springers who collectively totalled more than 80,000?

It's all down to advertising isn't it?  Any item with a "Designer" tag is going to attract people who want to be different and are willing to pay the price.  The rich and famous are walking advertisements for clothes, cars and now dogs.  Also if your cousin, neighbour or someone has a dog that is appealing you are going to want one.  This is another reason why the more popular dogs become more popular, familiarity.

I've never even heard of some of the breeds on the list let alone seen one.  The breeds need to be advertised in some way.  Crufts won't do it, it needs to be through glossy mags or Heat magazine.  On the other hand perhaps these breeds need specialist homes with people who want them because of their breed characteristics, who understand them and their needs and who are willing to meet the dog's needs rather than just pop it on a sparkly lead or in their pockets.  If there aren't people out there who are willing to do that then unfortunately it might be best if the dogs are left alone.

>On the other hand perhaps these breeds need specialist homes with people who want them because of their breed characteristics, who understand them and their needs and who are willing to meet the dog's needs

Isn't that true of all breeds, though, not just the rare ones?

Absolutely. Why have the rarer breeds become so though?  Are the rarer breeds more difficult to own as pets?

If the rare breeds make good pets then they need to be advertised as such.  It's the pet market that increases the numbers so that's the target.

Of those I've seen on TV who promote the "designer" breeds, they know little about breeds at all.  The Labradoodle has been presented as a breed, as having a non-moulting coat etc.  People listening who know no better accept the information because the people 'advertising' have the dogs and are assumed to be an authority. The rare breeds need to advertise their breeds, promote their good qualities.  IMO TV seems to be the best vehicle to advertise judging by the responses to articles.

I don't think you can blame designer breeds for the demise of the rarer breeds.  It's down to the breeders to do something about promoting them.

The trouble is that the producers of the designer crosses are more likely to simply want to cash in on the current fashion and not really care whether the prospective owners are suitable - partly because nobody yet knows what the characteristics of these various random crosses are! The breeders of the rare breeds are more careful and selective of the breeds dear to their hearts. Over-exposure and a flurry of popularity, such as when a breed features in a film, can be disastrous for the quality of the subsequent generations.

I think you're right and the problem is not that the designer breeds have taken the numbers from the rarer breeds but that the rarer breeds to now have enjoyed anonymity. By keeping their cards to the chest they have been able to carefully select owners for the pups because demand has outweighed supply. These breeders can concentrate on improving their breeds without fear of competition from inferior stock producers.  This might have partly led to their demise. Without some exposure the breeds will die out. Naturally, advertising will carry the danger of over-popularising breeds. 

Hard to stike a balance but what else can they do?

Then again sometimes an opportunity to publicise the breed is denied; the makers of the latest version of Greyfriars Bobby caused a (small) outcry when they used a Westie instead of the accurate Skye Terrier.

I think you are right Cheryl.  I don't think it is entirely the designer dogs which is why I used the word 'apparent'.  I think you have hit the nail on the head most of the dogs on the list have quite particular needs that modern life might make it difficult for people to fill but then there are plenty of other breeds that have too and yet manage to stay viable if not positively fashionable.  I think the answer is something to do with not having dogs as a fad thing at all perhaps by lots more education about what it takes to keep a dog properly and the need to look closely at any breed requirements.  That way perhaps demand for the more.....complicated ;)........breeds would be shared out because I do think it would be a great loss if any of these were lost all together.  I know one of them intimately, the Dandie Dinmont, and I know it has unique qualities that it would be such a shame to loose but then I also know that it's appearance on the list is also due to the difficulties of actual breeding which is also the case for the Field Spaniel I believe.

I know a breeder of Bloodhounds who says they "sing" at certain times of the night and left to their own devices like to "woodwork"

Supposed to be great with children and make excellent pets though so why don't people want them?

Yes I am sure they are a handfull ;) but surely there are one or two giant breeds, some with guarding tendancies too, that seem to be very popular who could be equally, umm, 'eccentric' ;)

ONLY 70 bloodhounds born in one year?  If we have half that number of Pharaohs born a year in the UK it's considered a puppy explosion! LOL

I can see their point but with the Pet Passport taking off and people being able to take their dogs abroad to be mated, our gene pool is quite healthy at the moment. We don't have masses of inherited problems in PHs.  I'm not sure how many bloodhounds are born worldwide - maybe that's where the difference lies.

PHs (and I presume bloodhounds too) are not for your average pet owner.  Exercising can be a problem with their 'selective recall' and hunting instincts - they're naturally 'barky' - and very destructive as puppies.

In a way I'm glad they're not popular because that's when people start breeding for reasons other than benefiting the breed in general.

Debs

These are endangered British breeds Debs :)  I don't know about the others but, certainly in Dandies there is not a significant gene pool abroad and those that are are established from the lines we have here.  In fact there is only really one line of Dandies left in the world.  Presumably Pharaoh hounds have a good gene base in their native country, Malta is it?.  If not then, well, I'm not usually too parochial about National issues but I would say let other countries sort out their native breeds :)

LOL Isabel, I'm afraid the LAST place I'd go for a PH is Malta (although you are right, it is their country of origin). 

I understand your point about endangered British breeds though - bad news for Dandies :(  I wonder why they're not popular worldwide?  I can understand Bloodhounds being unpopular as far as pet people go but Dandies?  Before you told us this I would have imagined them being quite accessable as show dogs worldwide (you know how a lot of people love a bit of fluffiness on their dogs ;) :D ). 

Sometimes we just have to admit, again as in PHs, that people abroad have a done a far better job with the breed as a whole than the breeders in their COO.  Maybe this could be the case with some of the other breeds mentioned?

Debs

I know some of the breed clubs are concerned, but others are quite happy with the low numbers as they just aren't right for the average pet owner, and don't really want them publicised too much! :-)

I don't think any club could be happy with numbers as low as this, it just isn't healthy.

I think Dandies are a little different to many on the list.  They do have many people waiting for one.  The problem is twofold, as I understand it, one, breeding them is tricky, for some reason they do not conceive terribly easily, perhaps their shape?, and when they do they have very small litters and secondly a lot of the homes offered will not contemplate breeding.  It's a modern difficulty isn't it having the time to do it when everyone is working.  The breed club urges anyone with a healthy bitch, regardless of show quality to breed in the hope of maintaining as large a pool as possible. 

It doesn't help matters when I saw advertised in this weeks Dog World owners guides to ' Goldendoodle, labradoodle, cokerpoo etc'. I was in the vets last week when a lady bought in a puppy (labradoodle), the nurse asked what breed it was and was told, nurse, sorry that is a cross breed, owner " How dare you this is a pedigree labradoodle that cost me £1500", eventually the vet came out to speak to the very indignant lady who was convinced that the nurse was stupid as she didn't know a pedigree when she saw one.

The Kennel Club could do more to educate people

I have always admired the look of Wire Fox Terriers and other terriers, but after a lot of research went for Miniature Schnauzers because they have a similar look () and are better around other dogs and people.

Many of the vulnerable breeds are terriers - maybe breeders need to select for more amenable temperaments so that the breeds fit in with today's lifestyle. Most dogs live in a suburban setting where other dogs are met often and aggression can be a serious problem - I for one would hate a dog I could not trust off the lead.

There are a couple on the list that are not for the faint hearted but that is most definately not the case with the Dandie Dinmont.  Together with their close relative the Bedlington they are the most easy going terriers of the lot in my opinion.

>Most dogs live in a suburban setting where other dogs are met often and aggression can be a serious problem - I for one would hate a dog I could not trust off the lead.

I feel just the same, well not so much off the lead but around other dogs and people certainly but looking at some of the trendy breeds I am not sure that is what is steering others peoples choices

speaking from the point of view of a bloodhound owner/breeder/exhibitor/trialer, let me assure you it is not bad news for our breed!!! Apart from a brief spell a couple of years ago when registrations rose nto the hundreds, our figures have barely altered in 20 years. Further more the 2 breed clubs, of which I serve on one of the committees, requested successfully to the kennel club to be removed from their vulnerable breeds register/PR simply because the numbers are exactly correct for our breed & the number of suitable.....SUITABLE owners available for this specialised and difficult breed.  We do not want our breed publicised as needing more pupies and more owners as it will only exacerbate the rescue problem, today there are already 4 adult hounds in our rescue and its hard enough to find homes for high quality pups, let alone adults from a dubious kennel, such as these areSo please do not worry about us as it is exactly how we want it, few litters for the few available owners.

A rather different situation to the Dandie then where demand is never met and where the breed club is very worried regarding the size of the gene pool.  A surprise, then, when you consider the size of their litters mean their 70 odd will have had many more mothers, at least, than the Bloodhound 70 odd.  Perhaps your breed are just better at maximising the pool :) 
The Telegraph seem to to have gotten their list from the British and Irish Dog breeds Preservation Trust who seem to list all native breeds as vulnerable :)

There are two main things that almost all the dogs listed in the link in Isabel's post:-

1. Almost all the dogs listed needed considerable or moderate excercise

Could it be that prospective owners are now doing a lot more research into a breed before buying and are going for breeds that suit their lifestyles or maybe it's just that your average joe bloggs is too lazy to give the dog the exercise it needs to be happy and healthy, the Joe Bloggs theory gets my vote combined with a vast amount of ignorance, a prime example being our bitch gave birth to a litter of 8 puppies 5 weeks ago and all but one boy have new homes with people who are previous springer owners, today we get a call from a woman asking if we had any pups left and when we told her we had the one boy left she asked would we be selling him any cheaper !!! she was told in no uncertain terms NO !! she called back to ask what colour he was as she was originally looking for a cavalier, I could not believe that this person was willing to buy a breed of dog she knew absolutely nothing about, needless to say she will not be getting my last boy at any price.

2. All the dogs originated in the  countryside.

Could it be that now hunting is considered to be such a bad thing :rolleyes::rolleyes: that some of these breeds are no longer required to do a job that no longer exists, combine this with my answer to point number 1 makes them unsuitable as pets ????

You also have to question the figures given out by the KC the Labrador retriever, which had more than 45,700 puppies, cocker spaniel (20,459) and English springer spaniel (15,133),   these figures only related to registered puppies those numbers must be double with the vast amount of unregistered puppies from these breeds being offered daily through free ads type publications and the  internet.

As for the puppy farmers that churn out these designer dogs, and I make no appologies for calling them puppy farmers because that's all they are, in it for the money !! they are producing a ticking time bomb - no one knows what the temperement of these cross breeds will be like the latest cross the Roodle !!! yes you guessed it a cross between a poodle and a Rottweiler, now I have never owned a rottie but the ones I have met have been the most docile and loving creatures, yet my grandfather always had poodles and in my experience they were the nastiest dogs I ever met, I guess we'll just have to wait until one of these timebombs attacks or maybe kills someone to find out, and even then it'll be the dogs fault. Maybe a few more to go on the banned breeds list !!

>Could it be that prospective owners are now doing a lot more research into a breed before buying and are going for breeds that suit their lifestyles

It does not look like that to me :)  If that was so why are labradors and springers still so popular, working ones toboot often.

>All the dogs originated in the  countryside.

Again, labradors, springers, cockers remain hugely popular.
Well, you go on to make that point yourself :)

Surely this sort of reporting only makes things worse for the breeds, not better. I'm sure the people who have these breeds only breed carefully and selectivly, and ensure the homes the puppies go to are capable of looking after them. A report like this could well encourage the sort of people who care not for restrictions on breeding, and will breed without papers 'just to pet homes'. You have all seen these type of adverts. Should a bitch get into the wrong hands, and actually manage to find a sire, they could be bred with the 'rare breed' advert, making people want to have one, regardless of paperwork. They make it sound that so many puppies being born to the popular breeds is a good thing.

Yes, the balance is very difficult to strike but it is no good being so coy about your breed that the numbers drop below viable :)
I can only really speak for the Dandie Dinmont although from my varying levels of knowledge of the other breeds they seem to be on the list for a variety of reasons. 
With the Dandie it seems unlikely they would ever fall into the hands of puppy farmers as they would never turn a profit, far too difficult to get into whelp and very small litters.  Their particular problem appears to be no shortage of homes, good, knowledgable homes coming through the breed club, but rather a severe shortage of homes willing, able and afluent enough to breed.
I would never say too many puppies is a good thing my other love is the Cocker spaniel, living on the other end of the scale and pray to puppy farming :(

I have a "vulnerable" breed. At the moment there are differing opinions whether it should be classed as vulnerable because numbers have increased greatly since the list was compiled. Unfortunately, when looking at registered litters in the last couple of years, many of the pups are from parents imported from "breeders" we know nothing about. This means that the caring breeders will not use these dogs to increase the gene pool, as they are not from health tested lines, nor do we see any of them in the ring to assess their quality - so its not only numbers of dogs registered which should be taken into consideration, but the size of the gene pool available to produce (hopefully) healthy dogs in the future. It is too easy to suddenly increase the profile of these breeds, as that is a good way to make less scrupulous breeders feel they may be on to a "nice earner" by breeding "rare" dogs.

oh guess what, today i had a request for use of a stud dog from a pet owner in manchester who admits to knowing nothing about breeding but bought a bitch for her children to play with last year & now wants to "breed her" because someone has just told her that bloodhounds were about to become valuable!!!  The email would be hilarious if it wasnt so worrying.