L/W english springer mum and light coloured golden retriever, end result is
11 pups, 6 solid black with small white markings on chest and 5 black, tan and white with tan eyebrows.
I have seen the pups and they are gorgeous but I am unsure if the dad is the retriever. Owners assure me he is but how did the mix end up with black and mix colour pups, is this possible.

I'm not a geneticist, but they sound more like collie-crosses to me! I think I'd be wanting them DNA tested.

I suppose it could be possible, liver, black, tan markings there are all in the make up of Springer Spaniels and I know you get some funny old mismarks when you breed particolour Cockers to solids.
I think if you are buying a cross breed though you can only take it on the basis of how they appear now and a bit of guess work because you never know how the combination of genes will turn out.  It rarely seems to be as simple as this from one parent, that from another :)

A Golden Retriever mixed with something else of a different colour to them WiLL give black puppies! Basically the Golden colour is genetically black,  it is a very similar gene so yes, mix a Golden to another colour and black is what you get. I had my accidental litter Golden x Malinois (Malinois is Fawn or Red with black mask), 4 pups were Brindle with black mask, 6 pups BLACK. Somebody else then had the exact same accidental cross and ALL the pups there were black.

Some of my puppy buyers there have had a hard time convincing people their dogs ARE half Golden and not half Labrador as people simply do not believe it. A couple were told outright I must have conned them! (Yes, for £50 a pup as well.......)

I mated a black and white Spanish with a brown and ended up with brown tri's, I've never had tri's before in my breed!  He is quite cute though but not accepted in the breed :d

Wow! Thanks for that, Marianne. It just shows you're never too old to learn! :D

Well I didn't know until I was curious about my pups and started looking for answers. :)

Very interesting, Marianne :)  I met a lady once who had a golden X  springer spaniel and he was jet black but I just assumed that the spaniel had been black/white but not necessarily so apparently :)

I've just changed my profile to add the (there) allowed link to my website, so if anyone wants to see the "Maligolds" they can be found on my website (there's a button to take you to the right pages) if you go look at my profile.

Wow again! :D I'd never have guessed their parentage, even if there was money offered! :D :D

That was really fascinating Marianne - I always learn new stuff on here! :)

The pup I have reserved is the image of a golden except he is black, he looks just like his dad as a puppy, we saw pictures. My first thought however was Rottie because of the other pups coloring but he looks nothing like one.

Whilst I'd be quite prepared to believe the blacks would be produced, tricolour in Collies is recessive so would have to be carried by one parent, so if the puppies are black, tan and white ... I'd be wondering.

Of course, if the owner has been daft enough not be sure who the father is, there could be one, two or more fathers!

M.

>so would have to be carried by one parent

The dam :)

Oops, sorry Isabel - of course I should have typed BOTH parents, as with any recessive gene. I know it can be in the dam, but not in a retriever surely.

M.

I'm not sure about Springers but I think in Cockers only one parent needs to carry the tricolour gene.

Certainly wouldn't care to say that the inheritance is the same in all breeds, but I think the 'Tan Mask & Trim' element on this page would disagree with you for Cockers, although I'm having trouble finding a site that expresses it more clearly.

http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours4.htm

All of the "..and White" colours may have a tan mask and trim if both of the parents carry the separate gene for this trait.

M.

Yes, I see, perhaps the dogs I am thinking of have benefited from a parent where the gene was carried but not evident.  But that is a cocker to cocker mating can the same be applied when different breeds and genes combine? 

I believe so.

Recessive genes should never be underestimated - the number may not be bang on, but in one breed I believe they have been found to be carried recessively for 20+ generations.

M.

The stud dog's breeder was surprised when there was a couple of livers in Clover's litter; the last liver on his side was 5 generations back, but the recessive had been passed down safely. :)

No both Cocker parents have to carry the gene for tan markings to produce a tricolour - it's inherited in the usual way as a simple autosomal rececessive.

In answer to the original poster then, I suspect we're safe in assuming then that the Retriever may be the dad of some of these puppies, but is probably not the dad of them all.

M.

If the pup I have chosen looks like a golden can I assume the dad is the golden, but what about the other pups and if there is more than one father how will this show up in pups.

I am even more confused,

I guess the honest answer to that is that, in choosing a dog from a crossbred litter, you pays your money and takes your chance! :D

M.

OK then, to clarify my thought processes while I was driving home ... unless someone can tell me I'm wrong? Always more than happy to be educated.

I would say that any puppies by Golden x ESS could ONLY be black, as there would be no recessive fawn/golden/yellow gene to match on the Mum's side. I guess this would work much as a chocolate lab and a yellow lab (neither carrying recessive genes for the other colour) would only produce black puppies?

Of course, without knowing the other father(s), that is not to say that all the black pups are sired by the Golden.

All of this leads to, as far as I can see, two scenarios for the woman selling the pups:

a) she has no idea how many or which dogs have mated her in-season bitch
b) she is not being entirely truthful with you

(Neither would make her someone I wanted to buy a puppy from, but that's just me.)

Anyway, hope all this mumbo jumbo has at least nearly answered your question.

M.

While we're on these conundrums, another one of these is one that Dane breeders have fallen foul of, particularly as black pups are hard to sell - fawn x blue will produce an entire litter of blacks.

[I would say that any puppies by Golden x ESS could ONLY be black, as there would be no recessive fawn/golden/yellow gene to match on the Mum's side.

I'm not sure? I've come across alleged springer x cocker first crosses that have had golden / lemon colouring.

A litter can have many fathers, but each pup will be the product of the bitch and one of the dogs who mated her.

It'd be interesting if the bitch, pups and golden retriever were all DNAed then they'd know for sure if another dog/s had got to her as well. You'd also know if the pup you've chosen is sired by the golden or not. :)

That would be interesting Jan, but suspect the breeder is not the sort who cares and certainly wouldn't spend the money to do so.

M.

The owner said she actually caught her retriever on the bitch and it was to late to seperate.
If I had not seen the mix coloured ones I would never have questioned as the solid blacks look just like dad.

Colleage at work has a l/w springer cross golden retriever and to be hones he looks very much like a flatcoat apart from the muzzle.  (There is also someone with a flatcoat newfoundland cross too).  He's solid black and a fine dog too.

Goldmali,just looked at your 'maligolds and they are all absolutely gorgeous.But Matilda is just stunning. :D

Matilda says thank you. :) She's the sweetest, gentle little girl you could imagine, even when she jumps up on you with her paws she does it SO gently you hardly feel her.

Bit late with this but a litter I saw l/w Springer x black/tan Akita was 8 black & white puppies (looked like bad Pointers when they grew up!