Hi, Does anybody know where you would stand if somebody child/adult climbed over your garden fence - suitable height 6-10ft - and as a result was bitten by your dog.  Does having warning signs such as 'beware guard dog' 'beware dog might bite' absolve you from prosecution or your dog being pts?

thanks for any advice...

Maxine 

Unfortunately no; signs have been no defence in the past, and dog-owners have been prosecuted even when the trespasser clearly shouldn't have been there.

Common sense and natural justice say that if you deliberately trespass you accept the consequences. However that's not what actually happens. :(

Thank you for your response - the question was on behalf of a friend who has two staffs and a rottweiller that live outside and yesterday some kids come over her fence to reclaim their ball.  When she went out to them and said in future dont do this wait for me and I will get the ball for you they said no - If their ball goes over they will climb and get it!  Just made me think what would happen if somebody climbed into my garden and got nipped by my dog.

Maxine   

There was a case some years back where a child climbed over a fence into a scrap yard after his ball, where he was attacked by two 'guard dogs'. The owner was found to be liable. Your friend would be sensible to construct a secure roofed enclosure for the dogs.

There was a case some years back where a child climbed over a fence into a scrap yard after his ball, where he was attacked by two 'guard dogs'. The owner was found to be liable. Your friend would be sensible to construct a secure roofed enclosure for the dogs.

I believe that this was the case that was responsible for the alteration to the law regarding guard dogs so that now guard dogs have to have a handler with them rather than just being left roaming free to do their guarding. Way back in the late sixties or early seventies if I remember rightly.

Whats that saying 'the law is an ass', .............absolutely rediculous!

My understanding of notices was always that if you had one saying "Beware of the dog" or similar you were accepting prior knowledge that your dog could be dangerous and accepting liability! Stupid I know but we never have notices up for that reason. My dogs are not normally the biting kind but who knows what could happen? We have very high fencing 8ft all round the dog areas and the gates are all padlocked, also my dogs are not usually outside unless I am, even if the doors are open they prefer to stay close to me. It does worry me though and as someone said The Law Is An Ass!
I think if someone who should not be in, and had actually broken into the garden and been bitten, then the courts would take that into account, as long as you do all you can to keep people out and have secure fencing to keep your dogs in then any court would be hard pushed to place full blame on you.

I have to say, I'm sure that I read somewhere the same thing.. its surmounts to accepting that the dog could be or could attack......
Something that says 'dogs running free' or similar might be construed in a less judgemental light...
However -
personally - the climate being the way it is a the moment, I'd not have that sort of sign up, and I'd do as Jeangenie suggest, a secure run for the dogs unless the person is there supervising... it just ain't worth the risk...
shouldnt have to do it.. but better safe than sorry...

Yes that's it. There was even an article on this (signs) in one of the dog papers a couple of years ago. Never, ever use signs saying "Beware of the dog" or similar, but a plain "I live here" sign is fine as then you haven't said anything about believing your dog might bite, but have still informed people there IS a dog.

This has got me thinking about my sign i have on the gate.  It says "Beware of the dog, enter at own risk" does this not put the ball (so to speak) back in the persons court when it comes to liability?  If not then the sign is coming off tonight!!

Apparently not, you have admitted you dogs may be dangerous!! Wrong IMO but there it is!

If I were your friend I would think about contacting the police for them to make a note if the incident to cover myself in case these stupid kids did trespass in the future.

Roni

Never mind the dog nipping or biting these children, I would be wanting to bite them myself, how rude and disrespectful they are of your friends property.

No matter how the law lies on this subject there is something that your friend can do, that is protect herself.

Firstly, could she (and partner if there) go and talk to these children's parents (or if they are not approachable) send a letter (copy kept yourself) to the parents stating that she has asked the children not to come onto her property for their ball as her dogs are there, and also she does not want children in her garden uninvited dogs or not! So could the parents make sure that they do not enter her property again.

Secondly, phone the police herself, explain what is happening, the dogs that she has and her worry if the children will not listen, again document the day and time this is done.

With both these things done, if a child still goes onto her property uninvited she should be protected if not completely then I doubt any prosecution would happen. (But who knows in this day and age :rolleyes:)

She could of course just get angry and tell the little cheeky so and so's to get out of her garden and any ball on her property in future will be bust. Perhaps that will work the best. ;-)

I have signs that state"Dogs Running Free-Do Not Enter"Anyone entering the property/land uninvited is deemed to be trepassing & committing a criminal offence

Thanks everybody - i will pass all your thoughts on to her and she can decide what to do about the notices etc.

Maxine

Could be wrong on this but I thought there was an old law, around 1890 something called the Dog Act which is similar to the Dangerous Dog Act but applies to dogs on private land. Under this law the owner could be prosecuted if a LEGITIMATE visitor eg Postman, Meter Reader etc to their property got bitten.

Surely if kids climb over a high fence uninvited and have no right to be there then the owner can't be prosecuted.

As regards to notices on gates and fences I was told by a police dog trainer that if the notice says 'Be Aware of Dogs' or 'Dogs running free' you are letting people know that there could be dogs on the premises but you are not suggesting the dogs are dangerous as in "Beware of Dogs". If you have the latter it is up to you to ensure your dog cannot access or be accessed by others.  If you have a note saying the former and people still enter, uninvited and your dogs bites them, they only have themselves to blame.

I've just seen this and you're not going to believe it but ... a couple of hours ago my daughter let the dog out back and she ran up the side of the house barking like mad.  Daughter then heard shouting, swearing and scrabbling about in our garden.  She went and looked over our 6 feet high fence and saw a couple of youths scrambling down the steep bank on the other side of the fence. 

Dog got praise.

Wow - freaky timing!  My friend did go and see the boys mother but she wouldnt speak to her - she did send her older son out to speak to my friend and he did understand and said he would tell the younger boy to stay out.  Personally I think anybody that jumps into a garden faced with two staffs and a huge rottweiller growling and snarling must be mad!!

Maxine

  

>Wow - freaky timing! 

Indeed!  Those in our garden must have climbed over a 6' fence and when I went out there realised we had made it easy for them to get out because there is a stack of about 8 plastic chairs against the fence.  Why they were in our garden is a mystery to me as there is nothing of any value lying around.

I think that was a smart move on your friend's part to see the boy's mother.  Hopefully that will be the end of it.

I like the sign that says "My dog can make it to the gate in 4.5 seconds.....can you?" I'm not sure if thats a "warning" of a dangerous dog or not?

A different law relates to guard dogs than domestic dogs. For domestic dogs, signs that state anything other than advisory, such as dogs running free, could be taken to mean the dogs could be dangerous and the Police will advise against them.

When I lived with neighbours, I got fed up with a constantly 'coming over the fence' ball. The dogs began to burst them, and I would throw the burst ball back. it seemed to stop then.......I did get fed up of the kids hanging over the fence, and throwing stones, and one day I had enough and called the police out. They could do nothing, yet I was warned should my dog bite I would be liable. They had a word next door, but it did no good. At a point of suffering with slight PND I had enough one day, and raged over the fence myself, all the neighbours heard me, nets were twitching, as a result I had no more problems....... The neighbours later asked me why it had taken me so long :D

Its such an annoying problem, I would check out the law as it stands today, and see whats applicable. The local Police may be able to help and advise here. I would also check your insurance to see if you are covered, should the worst happen, with legal advice and clames insurance.

Jeepers - what a world we live in - i put 'scot's law trespass dog bitten' into google and what was the first thing that came up?  YOUCLAIM.CO.UK !!!

I quote:

Being bitten by a dog is traumatic and often painful. See dog bite treatment for more information. Any dog could potentially bite a human, not just the aggressive breeds. Click here for more information about dogs that bite. If a dog is aggravated then it may lash out, this is why you should never disturb an animal when it is eating or with its puppies. If you are bitten by a dog indiscriminately you should seek compensation. If a dog shown previous tendency to bite and this can be proven then a claim will normally be successful.

If you are in Scotland however, the law varies slightly. According to the 1987 Animals Act, a dog does not have to shown a vicious nature before, for the owner to be liable. 'For the 'keeper' to be strictly liable the dog must have caused the injury or damage by biting or otherwise savaging, harrying or attacking'. There are a few conditions to this which may be brought up by the dogs owner as a defence, these are:

If the injury was caused by provoking the dog

If the person bitten accepted the risk

If the person injured was trespassing on another person's property
Pursuing a compensation claim
If you have been bitten by a dog in Scotland then pursuing compensation should be straightforward. If the owner has household insurance that covers dog bites you should be fully compensated unless one of the previous defences is argued by the owner, other routes to compensation may be available, please call for more information.

Scary!!

I think I will get some sort of sign and have passed all comments to my friend today - she is going to go for the 'Be aware - dogs running free' sign if she can get hold of them.

thanks again

maxine

you can buy signage on ebay that is made to your specifications.  I have one that was made to my own choice of words and style

a Lawyer writes-

Sorry all, but it has been established in UK law for many years that a duty of care is owed to trespassers. Signs are all well and good but what if the visitor is a child and cannot read or comprehend signs involving the concepts of "deemed trespass !!"

It may be different if the trespasser is Burglar Bill or a member of the local Amateur Rapists Society, who might be seen in a different category.

However, if a kid gets into your garden and gets bitten, even though your dog is simply doing his duty as a guard, then you're probably in trouble. Don't think there is any possibility of a dangerous dog rap, as this is really applicable to public places, but an action for damages -normally involving your insurer - would be much harder to defend.

Good luck!

Once more, the law seems to be an ass!  Surely if you have a reasonable and well maintained fence/wall round your garden you should be able to allow your dog to run free within your own boundaries and not face being sued because someone takes it into their head to enter your property?  Even if children can't read, shouldn't their parents be pointing out that they shouldn't be entering someone else's garden without permission and taking the responsibility if they do? 

Yes, but the fencing has to be very good, probably more than six foot I would say and certainly with features making it very difficult to climb such as an overhang.  But of course not with features that would damage the intruder such as barbed wire, carpet fixers etc ;)  Look at the lengths builders, railway yards etc are obliged to go to to ensure they cannot be accused of negligence if someone does get in and hurt themselves.  If you own something dangerous, machinery, dog, whatever the onus is on the owner to prevent harm whatever the motive of the intruder.  After all, the punishment for trespass by a child, for instance, hardly merits punishment of mauling and anyone innocently going in to rescue them would be at risk too.

Sorry Isabel but I think the whole thing has swung too much the other way.  Englishman's home is his castle and all that.  :)  No-one asks anyone to climb over boundary fences or walls - the whole point of them being to enclose your property and keep others out - so I feel I should be perfectly entitled to deter them if I wish to and my dogs should be entitled to the free enjoyment of my garden.  As a child, I was taught to respect other people's property and wouldn't have dreamed of climbing over fences etc and I'm absolutely sure that my parents wouldn't have thought to sue anybody if I had done so and been hurt as a result.

So, pity the child who does not have such concientious parents :)  Do they deserve to suffer, perhaps, death for not appreciating the same values and what about the person who may attempt to rescue them?
Even the truly bad person should only have the punishment fitting to the crime and that is best determined by the courts.  This is why we do not allow people to safeguard their homes with fire arms, knives etc, dog can be seen as no different.

Just seen this one. :)  I still don't agree with you Isabel.  If my property is safely fenced and the dogs are within my property, why should I be responsible for what other people do?   Are you seriously saying my dogs should never be allowed to run without supervision in my garden just in case a child or adult should climb over the fence?

I would add that I've never agreed with the law on 'reasonable force' for burglars etc.  They are breaking the law and should not be on someone else's property - anything that happens to them IMO is their own fault.   Hardline view maybe but I'm on the side of the real victims here and that seems to be something sadly lacking in modern Britain.  As for criminals getting compensation for any such injuries, don't get me going on that one. :) 

Looks like once again, we'll have to agree to differ on this one.

>Are you seriously saying my dogs should never be allowed to run without supervision in my garden just in case a child or adult should climb over the fence?

I think it depends on the dog :)  I know from actual experience that a child can enter my garden and come to no harm from my dog. 
You are probably too young to remember but about 3 decades ago there was a spate of children entered properties and being savaged by dogs of a nature to guard which led to new laws about guard dogs.  The children should not have entered but it was regarded as the dog owners responsibility to ensure these things would not happen.  I think they might well apply the same responsibilities if it is regarded as pretty likely that the dog would guard in this way.  Quite apart from the law though, if you had such a dog, are you saying if you went out into your garden having heard a commotion to find a seriously injury, even dead, deliquent 11 year old you would just say to yourself that's a job well done?  For my own sanity I would want to know that no human could be injuried.

Quite apart from the law though, if you had such a dog, are you saying if you went out into your garden having heard a commotion to find a seriously injury, even dead, delinquent 11 year old you would just say to yourself that's a job well done? 

That's a very strange comment Isabel - of course I wouldn't think that but I wouldn't feel it was my responsibility either.

You would not feel even a little responsible for not securing a dog capable of doing that?  I'm sure I would, I could not live with it.

I would be devastated by such a tragedy but would still not feel I could have done anything more to prevent it.  Seeing as how I have Goldens anyway who are most likely to try to lick someone to death, it is hopefully a situation which I shall never have to deal with.

Well if there was nothing more you could have done to prevent it then why should you feel any guilt :) but if you did have a dog that was a concern and it was a matter of either making sure your perimeter fencing could not be be scaled or securing the dog within a run for instance I think people should feel responsible.

I understand these points, but neither of them make any difference in law, I'm afraid.

Ass or not, that's how it stands...

I would want to go to court and see if a jury would convict Rod.  Not that my dogs would attack anyone - too soft!  :)

As a matter of law, an occupier of a property has to ensure that a lawful visitor to his property is reasonable safe whilst they are there and any dangers are brought to the attention of the visitor either verbally or by warning notices.  If the person was not a lawful visitor then the same sort of principles apply but it is up to the injured person to prove that the dog owners knew or ought to have known that a danger existed etc and Courts do take a dim view of people trying to claim when they are unlawful visitors.

As there are signs up etc then that would go in your favour as you have attempted to discharge your liablity and this is a strong and good defence.

Em

There is nothing illegal in having Beware of the Dog signs on your property.  The sign does not imply that your dogs are dangerous any more than "Beware illegal video cassettes" on home movies implies that videos might explode!

A sign such as this or any other sign is there as a duty of care to others and gives them adequate warning of the existence of something.

It does not further your liability.

Trespass is a civil issue not a criminal one and therefore if someone wanted to sue due to being bitten they would have to give a good reason why they ignored the sign.

Guard dogs are a totally different matter and they must be registered with the police and kept in special conditions in line with the Guard Dogs act.

These signs are no different from the hazard, mandatory or prohibition signs that are in the workplace etc.

> These signs are no different from the hazard, mandatory or prohibition signs that are in the workplace

Surely they are different because they aren't mandatory :)

Daisy

Mandatory signs = blue and white = you must eg wear hard hats, high viz vests
Prohibition signes = red and white = you must not eg go past this point, smoke
Hazard signs = yellow and black = danger eg danger of electrocution

Etc etc etc does this help?

> Etc etc etc does this help

Erm, no :)

Signs such as 'Beware of the Dog' have no legal requirement and aren't colour coded - to the best of my knowledge :) Signs in the workplace are legal requirements :)

Daisy

Absolutely, however warning signs may be put anywhere on domestic or industrial property to "warn" people of things they need to be aware of!

A sign gives people information, what they do with that information is up to them. If you fail to inform and/or warn then you have failed to extend a duty of care.

And also to the poster who made the reference to the child, parents have a duty of care to them too! ;)

In the workplace various warning signs must in place, or the workplace can be closed. There is no such threat with domestic dog-warning signs - it's not as if someone's garden will be closed if the signs aren't there! :D That's the difference between workplace and domestic signage.

Hi

Had a quick read through and apologies if someone has already suggested this and I missed it but I would be inclined to report it to the Police.Not just for them to make a note of it but for them to take some action. Nothing major at this stage but perhaps if they were to have a word with their parents to say that they would be prosecuted for trespassing next time. This may deter them from doing it again, it may not, just a suggestion! I just dont see why your friend  should be a sitting duck when they have done nothing wrong and someone else has broken the law.

Whatever your feelings are regarding all this, the law stands and should a child (or anyone)be injured you are liable. For many years there have been laws regarding guard dogs, domestic premises/dogs are seen differently. However you feel about it personally, you are going to have a fight in court should your dog bite or injure someone, even if on your premises without invitation. Its the same as the burgler who enters your home,and whilst getting in through the window cuts his arm open, he can sue you for compensation.........

As to signs, an 'aware' one gives anyone with resonable intelegence an indication that a dog is on the premises, one that says 'Beware' could give that same person an indication that they could be injured should they proceed. In court a good solicitor could argue the point that the 'beware' sign gave an indication that the owner thought it possible their dog could cause injury. Very often they will refer to case law. Its not that the sign itself indicates a dangerous dog, but how it could be interpreted at a later date.

It's crazy!  Cars are known to kill hundreds of people each and year and injure thousands and yet we are allowed to drive them around the streets.  If a child steps out in front of my car on a public road and I injure them or worse I am not at fault because I am driving legally on the road and the child should have taken more care.

Conversely if a child enters my private property without my permission and gets bitten by my legally owned dog in my properly fenced private garden I am liable?

It's mad.

>If a child steps out in front of my car on a public road and I injure them or worse I am not at fault because I am driving legally on the road and the child should have taken more care.

Not exactly true. A pedestrian has right of way over a vehicle, especially at junctions.

yes thats right, animals also have right of way over cars

Exactly, pedestrians have the right of way but if a child runs out into a busy road, unless the driver is breaking the law in someway i.e. speeding, the driver is not going to be blamed for the child's injuries are they?