Well, Ellie is finally coming in season, and in spite of having read the Book of the Bitch, Whelping a Litter, and several books specifically on the breed, I still have loads of questions which answers should be obvious - and we haven't even started!!! First question, my book says they need bi-calcium phosphate at the end of pregnancy and during whelping, but I can't find anywhere good to buy that after some work with Google. The Canine chemist page wouldn't load (has it changed?) and all other sites seemed to be just complete foods containing it, and I just want a supplement. It also says not to buy tablets with too high a concentration of it. What do the experienced people say, do I need it for a Toy breed and if so where do I find some? Have ordered some Fit n Fertile pregnant bitch stuff, as I was impressed with the original stuff's properties in hair growth.

Second question - during her last two seasons my boy although interested only went completely insane on day 14, so I'm thinking start trying to mate her around day 10? Or is 8 safer, or is that too early? I'm using my own dog, but will need to ferry some non-driving helpers to my house for each attempt. :-)

Sorry, can't help Lucy but how exciting!!! I cant wait to see the outcome - some real beautiful pups I bet!! Good luck!

Hayley

I have never used any supplements at all and believe that a good diet is enough to see a bitch through pregnancy, whelping and nursing.

Ditto, a good complete puppy food carries everything that your bitch will need, infact my vet told me off when I had my first litter and got everything in sight, if you feed a good puppy complete plus buy xtra of everything you will be over-dosing on nutrients, calcium, proteins etc these were very handy in the days before complete, but now they really are not necessary at all.  I have never, ever had a problem before, during or after whelping, pups and bitch have always been healthy and in top notch condition. ;-)

No supplements for me either.  I might be different if it was a very large litter but otherwise I think it is better to simply observe for any signs that she is unwell which you are going to be doing anyway :)

No supplements whatsoever for me either. I've read that giving calcium before / during whelping can actually encourage eclampsia to happen. I just feed the bitch to appetite (mine is not a greedy breed and is not given to putting on weight) on her normal food until she is 6 weeks gone. Then I change her to the food the puppies will be weaned on and again feed to appetite. I let the bitch exercise normally right up to the end though I do discourage the pursuit of lagomorphs in the last couple of weeks (not always successfully!)

You can't tell when a bitch will be ready from her previous seasons. She may follow a pattern but she may well not. Day 8 is probably too early but saying that I had a litter of 13 from a mating on Days 7 & 9. You can use your dog as an indicator or you could have her progesterone levels checked. Personally speaking the only time I used progesterone levels I was sent to the dog too early - I knew it, my own dogs knew it and the stud definitely knew it! But others have had good success with this method. For myself I use my own dogs' reactions and my own observations now, but I have also had success in the past with vaginal smears (they caught the bitch that was ready very early for me).

Best of luck with the mating, pregnancy and whelping.:)

I was going to say this -the one time I added extra calcium, wham! bad mastitis, really serious with a burst abscess. Never again! I just give the bitch the puppy version of her food from about week 6 onwards, until then just feed as normal. Of course at 6-7 weeks her portions will increase and she will get 3 meals a day.

One of my girls has had 3 litters and has been mated at 11, 18 and 14 days so you never know which it will be and I would not go on timing alone.

OK great, no supplements then, thanks! Forgot to mention she shows colour throughout a season so no help from her, and my boy has been humping her every night for the past 6 months, so no help from him either! :rolleyes: At least with my own stud dog it's not a long journey to keep trying every 2 days! :-)

I never feed supplements either but from wk 6 do add a lunchtime feed and often with cottage cheese in. The girls love it and in those last few days when they get full and fussy the cottage cheese seems to perk up the appetite a little, I change to a higher protein food for the last three weeks and use the same brand but the one designed for whelping bitches. Just a querie? why do lots of you use the puppy feed for whelping bitches? do you not find the ones specifically designed for whelping bitches better? I use Burns and tripe to feed as maintenance, the fish and rice as they love it and then the Canine extra for the last few weeks. The pups are weaned onto mini-bites and I have had great results with this feeding regime.

A little PS I have a Draminski detector and it has never let me down yet, one of my bitches is ready to mate at 8/9 days and without the draminski I missed her first time but have had two litters since both mated on days 8/9. The dog should let you know if your lucky but not always if he is not a regularly used lad, No dogs in our house so we have to use the other method and hope it tells the truth, often we have a long journey and the investment in the draminski has been worth it.

Just a querie? why do lots of you use the puppy feed for whelping bitches? do you not find the ones specifically designed for whelping bitches better?

Can't say I've ever seen such a food.

Certainly the Canine extra that Burns do is advised for "Pregnant and nursing bitches" and the Mini-bites for pups, they now have a new "High Energy Lamb" specifically for large breed pups as well, not tried it yet but will for the next litter.

For me it seems pointless to have the bitch on eyt a different food from the other dog snad the pups.  Usually the main differnece in the foods for whelping and pups is the size of kibble.

I soak my bitches food when they are rearing to encourage water intake, so kibble size is irrelevant.

My preferred complete for pregnancy, lactation and the pups is Arden Grange Prestige.

I never soak my kibble for adults as they seem to prefer the crunch! Obviously I do for the pups until they can manage and in my giant breed that is not long then they also have it dry, and love it. My girls will eat anything not nailed down so they are quite happy to clear up any puppy food left after the pups have gone so no wastage. It works for me and my dogs so I am happy with the arrangement, might not suit everyone though and that's individual choice. Interesting to see how others do things don't you think?

I always have the stud dog/s I use and his owner come and stay with us from day 7 as luckily we have developed a really good friendship over the years and we always have allowed things to happen naturally, I am so glad I can do things this way and don't need to work hard at getting the right date for taking my girl to the stud, in your case you can get away with a natural develpment too.

The way that we do things is allow the dogs to play happily with each other and be in each others company, (at full supervision only, seperate completely if you are doing other things or becoming distracted) of course the stud is always interested, and follows her around like a lost sheep, but gets nowhere near until my girl is ready, once she begins to flirt back with him, (which she does as they have had time to build up a relationship of sorts) and happily stand herself then we are all in position for a mating, we will mate on that day and the day after and then the stud will go home, in your case he will need to be seperated completely until the season then stops, my girl generally is ready approx day 14, but if you are lucky enough to have dog and bitch on the premises you can keep popping them together, (even keep your stud on lead if you are worried) and watch your bitches reaction throughout, that is what I always go on I ignore the stud completely as he is ready no matter what :-D my girl tells us all when she is ready and her eggs are ripe by her actions alone.

This can not be done when you visit a stud dog it is much more technical and infact can be more reliant on the studs reaction to tell a ripe bitch, but when you have both bitch and stud together for a period of time you can rely more on your bitches instincts.

By all means use science to help if you are worried and wish to be acurate, but in my experience the most acurate indication has always been my girl. :-)

OK, next question, though rather premature - my vet recommends Panacur liquid wormer towards the end of pregnancy and while nursing. One of my experienced breeder friends says on no account let them talk me into doing this (haven't really found out why!). Another breeder friend is in favour of worming but says you should switch brands at this stage in case the worms have become resistant. Currently we use Drontal for routine worming, and they were all wormed just a couple of days ago. What do people think? Pros and cons for extra worming, and why Panacur particularly if I do it? Thanks!

I have used Panacur and found it very well tolerated by both bitch and pups but if you do a search you will find people have very varying experiences with wormers which is understandable when you consider these are chemicals designed to kill living organisms.  I think it is important to remember that fact and be very precise about dosages, it can only help in avoiding the problems some experience.

you need to worm your bitch during pregnancy as the hormones in pregnancy itself cause worms to develope, for the past two years I have used a new wormer, (not new now though) called Milbemax it is a small tablet taken orally, which lasts a full 3 months, perfectly safe to be given during pregnancy, whelping and weaning which kills everything from egg to adulthood. I always give a tablet as my bitch is mated and it will then cover her for the entirity of pregnancy onwards.

The pups are given drontal liquid wormer, and then from 8 weeks onwards panacur, from  older still they too can then go onto milbemax too.

Collies (as so rightly pointed out by other Collie breeders can not take milbemax it is dangerous for them) but Milbemax suits most other breeds and is an excellant no nonsense wormer which best of all only needs to be given once every three months.

The tablet is vet prescribed.

>perfectly safe to be given during pregnancy, whelping and weaning

From the Milbemax instructions:

Pregnancy and lactation Studies performed with laboratory animals (rat rabbit) did not reveal any teratogenic or embryotoxic effect of milbemycin oxime or praziquantel when administered separately. The safety of the combination product has not been tested in pregnant or lactating dogs. Therefore the use in such animals is not recommended.

M.

And this is taken from a report from people who actually have tested it on pregnant and lactating bitches.

Tolerance of a Combination of
Milbemycin Oxime and Praziquantel
in Breeding and Lactating Bitches
After Repeat Dosing
Rudolf Schenker, PhD1
Robert Cody, M. Agr. Sc. H. Dip. Tox1
Günther Strehlau, Dr. rer.nat1
Pablo Junquera, Dipl. Biol., PhD2
1Novartis Animal Health Inc.
Basel, Switzerland
2Vetparcs GmbH
Zürich, Switzerland

INTRODUCTION
Milbemycin oxime is a macrocyclic lactone
with high efficacy against a number of
helminth parasites of dogs such as heartworms,
1-3 hookworms,4-9 roundworms,9 and
whipworms.7,10 The safety of milbemycin
oxime for dogs has been broadly investigated
in numerous studies that have shown it is
well tolerated by adult dogs, pregnant bitches,
and pups.11 In one particular study, bitches
were treated at 1.5 mg milbemycin oxime per kg body weight daily from mating until
weaning. Neither the bitches nor their offspring
showed signs of adverse drug effects.
The safety of praziquantel for dogs has also
been studied in several toxicity and tolerability
investigations,12 and many years of use of
this active ingredient in numerous countries
have confirmed that this compound can be
used safely in dogs. The individual commercial
products are also approved for use in
pregnant bitches in the European Union, the
United States, and numerous other countries.
The present investigation was performed to
confirm the safety of the combination product
for bitches and their offspring during pregnancy
and lactation when used at the highest
recommended dose rate.

Many companies selling this product including veterinary practices also recommend it as safe for pregnant bitches.

And I can certainly vouch for the product myself having used it during two pregancies. (Not mine, but my bitches :-D)

Most people I know as well say don't use Panacur as there have been cases of pups dying. I use Drontal puppy suspension myself for pups and normal Drontal for mum and have never had a problem with that.Last time I didn't worm during pregnancy as I'd heard a few very experienced friends mention they didn't, and the pups didn't have more worms than when the bitch was wormed. Instead I wormed her when the pups were 3 weeks old and got their first dose.

I also use Milbermex both during pregnancy, and for the pups after birth, with excellent results, very rare to find worms in Mum or Pups. I cannot comment on how suitable they are for collies but my Bernese have no problems with it.

I use Drontal for Mum and Drontal puppy suspension for the pups and I've had neither a problem nor a wormy litter. I asked my vet about Panacur daily in late pregnancy when my last litter as due, and he advised against it.

I used panacur granules for my bitch from day 40 of gestation and for a couple of days after as recommended by the vet and use panacur paste for the pups at 2 weeks then 5 weeks. Have done this for 4 litters, springers and scotties with no ill effect.

Normaly use drontal on adult dogs for the normal regular worming.

Ditto, Lorripop - except I used the 10% liquid on the bitches. The pups dont seem to mind the flavour of the paste, either, so it goes down easier.

>>>Second question - during her last two seasons my boy although interested only went completely insane on day 14, so I'm thinking start trying to mate her around day 10? Or is 8 safer, or is that too early? I'm using my own dog, but will need to ferry some non-driving helpers to my house for each attempt<<<

We did the pre mate test by the vet to make sure- and it was accurate as she recently gave birth to six healthy girlys

Ok, I've only bred 3 litters but here goes.

No supplements during pregnancy or after whelping.

I've never wormed a bitch during pregnancy and just did the pups with Panacur to begin with but you have to give it over 3 days, then I changed to Drontal and it's easier.  

Mated my 2 girls on day 13 of their seasons - I've found day 10 too early and would never force a mating by day 13 the girls were rampant themselves!   Opted for just one mating (My own dog for the first litter), outside stud for litters 2 & 3 and  had 3 litters containing 14 pups in each litter!