Once the sack has been broken or the placenta has become detached how long to deliver a breech pup (Chihuahua).

I need this information as accurate as poss as this is going in the letter of complaint to my vet.

I could look this up as I have many books, but am so busy with other dogs and helping my dog with single pup that I would appreciate if anyone can hand me this knowledge off the top of their head.  I have one and a half mins to 2 mins max in my head, but I may be wrong.

Thanks.

I can't give you a difinitive answer but surely it all depends on each particular case?  There could be numerous factors involved as to how long it takes.

Debs

I don't mean how long it takes, as theoretically it can take as long as you like providing the sac is intact.

I am mainly referring to the time you have in an emergency once the sac has torn/placenta detached and pup can no longer breathe.

Do you mean how long can the puppy survive once detached from the placenta or how long it would take on average to deliver a breach?  I am not sure sure what the answer to the first question is but I think the answer to the second would be very difficult to determine as so much would depend on the size of the pup, the amount of effort the dam is willing/able to give etc. and because the answer to the second is so difficult to determine the answer to how long you have got becomes immaterial because obviously you can only strive to achieve it in as little time as possible.  Assuming you are aware the placenta is detached in the first place.
Breach by the way is not quite as problematic as in humans with their enormous heads, puppies are pretty much torpedo shaped being no more difficult or easy to deliver head or feet first, the really difficult ones are side on or, perhaps, to a lesser degree bottom first.

Was it a hind foot presentation or a true breech? Half of my puppies seem to come out backwards but I've not had  true a breech presentation. I don't know how long a puppy can survive after the placenta has detached because I've not known it to happen. What I have seen are puppies delivered in already ruptured membranes. I can think of one quite difficult delivery I helped friends with where one pup presented (head presentation) in ruptured membranes but the bitch wasn't able to push the pup right out. It was a fair bit of time before enough of the pup was out for me to help the rest out. The owners had called the vet and the poor man arrived just in time to see the live puppy slither free with a little help from me. :)

But I wouldn't worry about how long the puppy could have survived because I doubt anyone will be able to give you a definitive answer to that. Your complaints should be : (1) your whelping bitch was left unobserved; (2) they dropped a new born puppy; (3) your bitch had an unnecessary CS.

I feel the presentation would have been hind feet first and not a true breech (with rump) as i don't think my bitch would have been able to half deliver it the way she did.  Of course we can not be sure because no one was watching her. 

Sorry for my wooliness in explaination.  By placenta detached and sac broken, I mean this because my bitch had had time to break the sac and eat the placenta whilst she remained unattended at the vets.  the bitch pup was half out whilst my dog did this, if she'd been watched we could have delivered the breech plenty of time with sac intact.

Am I making sense?  Sorry not much sleep.  Just wondered how long we'd have had to get the girl out once my biotch had ruptured sac.

Have amended letter to read:

Sadly for the life of the second pup it was breech.  You must know as well as I that a breech birth needs the sac intact for as long as possible otherwise with the head inside Mum it cannot survive.  When you went to bring Angelica through from the back she was part way delivering the breech pup herself, having had time to not only tear the sac, but eat the entire placenta, which is why Angelica never delivered one later.

Does that sound ok?

When you went to bring Angelica through from the back she was part way delivering the breech pup herself, having had time to not only tear the sac, but eat the entire placenta, which is why Angelica never delivered one later.

I'm not sure how long you think it takes for a bitch to rupture a sac and eat a placenta but it can happen in seconds!  Please don't think I'm saying your vet didn't do anything wrong, just that it is something that can happen very, very quickly indeed and isn't indicative in itself of your bitch being left for a long time on her own.

Debs

According to The Book of the Bitch about half of all puppies are born hind-feet first (rather than head-first) and this isn't regarded as a 'breech' birth. It's referred to as a 'posterior presentation', which might sound better in your letter. :)

Then I think you want to simply want to say something like "The puppy presented as a footling breech whilst the bitch was unobserved. The membranes had ruptured and the bitch had eaten the placenta again whilst unobserved. Had someone been with the bitch to help with the delivery there is a good chance that the puppy might have survived. To leave a whelping bitch alone at home is unacceptable and it is more so in a veterinary surgery."

Have you thought of complaining to the BVA? Unless I got a crawling apology from the vet (and no charges), I would.

I believe the BVA forbid staff to remain during xrays for obvious reasons, I remember seeing something about that in the hip scoring guidelines even if they didn't I would not blame anyone prefering not to when they might be exposed regularly.  Yes, he could have asked the owner to stay but dogs do not always settle well in the presence of an owner particularly if the owner is exhibiting signs of stress.  As another poster has pointed out, things can happen horrifically fast.
I do think it worth looking into but I do not think we should assume that the investigation will show that anything could have been done differently.  Given the events occuring during the first attempt to xray I am not surprised that the vet decided clinical indications were the best course of action for determining whether to do a section and as to dropping the pup it amazes me that I have not dropped a wet pup before now   Accidents happen and I expect the vet was feeling pretty stressed and upset by this point too.

My vets always allow me to put an apron on and stay with my dogs regardless of why they are being X-rayed and I wouldn't have it any other way. The first attepmt at an X-ray didn't get done because the bitch had half a pup sticking out. There was no reason, when the pup was out and things were calm again, to proceed to CS without an X-ray or an echo. And while I agree wet pups are slippy you lift them in a rough cloth/theatre towel for that very reason. IMO any one of these might possibly have been excused but putting them together the whole thing was an almighty mess.

>My vets always allows me to put an apron on and stay with my dogs

Trying to stay diplomatic but there are owners and owners and I think a vet may wish to assess whether that will be helpful or not.

goliie puppies where born last monday the first puppy was breech with no after birth from the time her water broke to the pup being born2 hours 5 mins.but once i saw the the puppy was breech but still in the bag on the next contraction i help to easie the puppy out  in a down  ward action he was a big pup,the aftrebrith came away 18 hours later after an injection from the vet

Probabaly true, but even if Chi-Chi was a bit excited - and who could blame her if she was :) - it would clearly have been better had she been with the bitch in this instance. Even if she had not been able to help the puppy out herself she could have callled for assistance. It would be interesting to know just how long the bitch was left alone. Certainly things can go wrong very quickly but in my experience you usually do have a little while to help a bitch with a pup that is half presented.

>it would clearly have been better had she been with the bitch in this instance.

With the benefit of hindsight, yes, but clearly the vet was not expecting her to deliver unaided, hence the xray. 

>you usually do have a little while to help a bitch with a pup that is half presented.

From the account we have been given, he was back with her before it was fully delivered so that does not really help indicate how long the setting up took.

Ok sorry I have been tweaking the letter and it has delayed me coming back to the thread.

I was very calm and not excitable, I am a quiet and respectful peron and although the vet was preparing the x ray when the second pup was delivered (head first) they managed to catch it half way through.  She then continued to prepare for x ray but also prioritised personally PTS the earlier home delivered malformed pup in favour of waiting with my still delivering bitch.

I was not asked to wait in the waiting room because I was hyped up but I believe because the surgery is minutely small and there was not much room.  One of the other nurses there was a stand in as the regular one was on holiday and the standard long term nurse could have been called from the back to help on reception whilst my bitch was delivering (I know this as I was in the waiting room).

Is that clearer.

Thank you for the correction of terms to some people.  I am judging the time of cutting the cord and eating the placenta based on the time it took my bitch to cut one cord herself.  She is the smallest of the toy breeds so may not get through it as quickly as a larger breed dog.

my swd hate eating the cord or the afterbith she just spilts it out i have to cut the cords,out of this of 5 two af were not with puppiee when born 3 i had to cut.

wispa my fce would chew though in seconds no long than a 1min

so different breeds and bitchs are totaly different when whelping

How would helping at reception have assisted your situation?

Also you need to distinguish between a real breech delivery (bottom first with feet tucked up) or feet first delivery which is perfectly normal and about half puppies are born feet first and half head first.

It was a footling breech not a true breech.

That would present no difficulties at all to my breed but I suppose your breed are likely to have larger heads.

Isabel there are 2 nurses in the practice one could have waited out the back with my bitch whilst the other covered reception (where we were waiting).

Because one of the nurses was only covering for holiday and does not know the individual practices procedures she needed the more experienced nurse to come back through from the back to reception and frequently tell her what to do to follow their standard procedures/work the computer system etc.  thus leaving my bitch more at risk of being left unattended.

This meant there was more demand on nursing staff and the regular nurse was not free to stay with my bitch.

I was however.

I don't think it unreasonable for staff not to wish to stay during xrays.  It is also unfortunate that someone was on holiday but that is obviously something that has to happen from time to time.

Isabel the x ray DID NOT take place, she had already delivered 1 pup whilst they were setting that up but fortunately this was head first.

The second pup was delivered whilst unattended as two nurses were on reception and my vet chose to PTS the malformed puyppy already delivered at home, over helping my whelping bitch.

I hope that clarifies things

Chi-Chi, please remind me of how much oxytocin was given and when it was given.

Hi Jas, I have just sent you a message - will do so again in a sec.  I am off to find the print out sheet - but the vet has only stated what she is charging me for NOT what was administered I think as some of the other things given/used have been left off of the bill (can elaborate more in PM).

Thanks Chi-Chi - got it.:)

Well it will be interesting to hear your vets response to these points but it does seem to me you are judging it very much on hindsight.  I doubt very much he would have paused to put the puppy to sleep if he thought she was about to deliver and of course, he could not possibly know that the placenta would be delivered first, I have never experienced that myself.  Most of us stay with our whelping bitches throughout the process but I expect many of us will use some judgement and pop to the loo or put the kettle on when we seriously think things have settled down for a while and nothing is happening.
I hope things are resolved to your satisfaction in terms of reasuring you that things were done for a reason or that if things were not done right that they will acknowledge this and make recompense and hopefully do things differently in future but I do think you need to keep an open mind until it has been looked at from both sides.

Yes thank you Isabel I will.  But should the vet have left my bitch unattended at any point at all whilst she was whelping following the oxytocin?  Especially when I was there willing ready and able to be on hand?

Aside from the unattended whelping bitch I feel that having set the x ray up earlier, she could have used it to check for a remaining pup instead of cutting my girl open unnecessarily.  In addition to this the footling breech pup was dropped on the floor by her whilst trying to recuss and she did not acknowledge the mistake by way of an apology at the time.

Again you are using the benefit of hindsight, the clinical assessment suggested there was another pup.  This is not the first time palpation has been misleading and I doubt it will be the last.  I am not at all surprised that the vet opted not to leave her alone again for an xray given the previous circumstances and not being a radiographer I have no idea if the original set up was still appropriate as in my experience as a patient this is always done with you on the table implying to me that it cannot be done ahead and always varies.  Do we even know the set up was completed before she checked on her?  I do think you need to keep an open mind about these things until you hear from them.
Dropping the puppy is an appaling accident but I do think it could happen to anyone.  Would not telling you about it be seen as acknowledging it?  Would you have known otherwise, did you see it happen?

Isabel, one thing I would like to know is WHY they were doing an X-Ray. The bitch was given 3 doses of oxytocin in pretty quick succession. Surely the vet should either have waited for the oxytocin to work with the bitch under observation. (Would you pop out to the loo after your bitch had been given oxytocin?) Or if in his clinical judgement she had needed a section he should have gone on and done it. What exactly was a X-Ray going to tell him?

I'm emphatically NOT a vet basher. I have superb vets and have said so on here on many occasions. But I don't think there is any excuse for Chi-Chi's catalogue of disasters.

What do you call pretty quick succession?  In my, rather limited, experience of oxytocin but also on what I have been told, you can expect a response very quickly or not at all so it seems no wonder to me that after 3 doses the vet might decide to set up for an xray.  No I would not pop to the loo but I might commence some other course of action that I thought I might need to do for the benefit of the delivery.
I do not know because I am not a vet but I would guess the xray was to confirm how engaged the pup/pups were to explain the lack of response and therefore determine if a section was necessary rather than just a wait.
I have no idea if there is any excuse for what went on either but I would rather wait and see if there was one before judging.

I have no idea if there is any excuse for what went on either but I would rather wait and see if there was one before judging.

Well I would be doing exactly what Chi-Chi is doing which is writing to the vet. Perhaps they CAN come up with clinically sound reasons for (a) leaving a whelping bitch alone after she has been given oxytocin; (b) dropping a pup on the floor; (c) doing a CS on an empty bitch. I for one look forward to hearing what they say.

I am not questioning the writing for an explanation.

there two side of this story one will be the vets the other the breeder,if both have a stronge case againt each other then it may end up in court.

we on cd where not there on this case but we can only advise you what we as breeder have gone though with our litter.

did your dog read the text book on whelping no bitchs whelp the same just like humans

i didnt have to time to read this whole thread but being a midwife i would say once the cord is cut the puppy must be delivered immidiately or will die. i would say 1 min max to get pup out.

I have not actually sought to mercilessly tear my vets reputation to shreds, I have merely asked for some guidance on writing a letter to request she explain why things happen the way they did.

I have now got to saturation point with it all.  Thankfully my son is hand delivering the letter to the practice so that they have it first thing tomorrow.

Now I am off to cook a roast dinner in between doggy duties.

Thank you to everyone for your input one and all :)

I feel that this has probably gone as far as it can. Please contact Chi-chi via pm with any other info

Feet first in a dog is NOT breach. This is very very normal in all breeds for feet first presentation. I see it at least 50% of my pups.