A few days ago,I walked my salukis peg and daws to the golf course where we walk everyday for about an hour,I am lucky that I can let them both run free as we meet about 15 dogs,who over time have got used to mine,and play really nice,major breakthrough,all the people I see,all know my dogs history,and most of them having rescues aswell know the ups and downs,but know that although they will go crazy and chase,are not aggressive and have never bitten another dog.
As I walked in,I let them off and they came across a pointer,who was being walked by a man with his wife and daughter,daws,chased this dog,who ran round trying to get away,daws has a habit when he runs,he opens and closes his gob as if he is trying to bite the hind quarters of the dog in chase,but never does, and after 4 years of this I am not worried,this is just play,they do it to eachother and a bit of neck biting,but never broken skin, just a bit of hanging on,a nd most times not even that.

I know  this is a worry if you dont know the dog,as it looks as though he is going to bite,I normaly get there first and call out that he wont bite,just,over excited play,if the dog being chased stops,daws just stands there.

This day I wasn't quick enough,the owner of the pointer came up to my face,and said to call my dog off or he was going to throw a rock at him,that I had a viscious nasty dog,who,should be kept on a lead.He kept going on,until I told him to shutup,that if he would just listen,I would never let my dog off the lead if I thought he was aggressive.
Aggressive being the point,this man was awful,I would of tried to get my dog anyway if he was distressing another dog,I just didn't get the chance,
This is upsetting,but luckily I had support from all my other dog walking buddies,mostly who cant believe daws would do such a thing,only because they are used to him.
Lost in play ,recall is hopeless,I thought about a whistle,anyone have a plan? ash

The best way to recall a sighthound is with a photograph! :D Honestly good recall with all sighthounds is difficult and from what I saw at Dava, salukis are worse than most. I find with my deerhounds that I can recall them from play but not if they are committed to hunting. If your two are not coming back to call when playing with other dogs I would start them with something completely new like a whistle. You will have to begin with no distractions and reward lavishly then build up to using the whistle when they are palying with each other and finally when they are playing with other dogs.

Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. Like you I know that my derhounds and IW have zero aggression but I also realise that they look alarming hurtling up at top speed and I don't allow them to play with dogs they don't know. Apart from all else the chased dog might be dog aggressive or retaliate in fright. If attacked deerhounds and IWs will fight back and in the vast majority of encounters they will win all too easily.

Many dogs may find that kind of play alarming, and could either bolt in fright or turn round and have a go. I personally wouldn't allow my dog to approach another unknown dog like that, mainly because i know that one of mine wouldn't appreciate it and may retaliate. THe man should not have been quite so rude, but i think perhaps in the future it may be wise to recall the dogs before they initiate play and ask the owners if they are ok with the dogs playing. I have discovered that quite a few people don't understand dog language and often misinterpret normal interactions as aggressive, hence his over the top reactions, so you do have to be a bit careful. I have found whistles to be much more effective than voices, but only if trained to in the right way, starting off with just blowing the whistle every time you put down the dogs bowl for at least a couple of weeks to condition the dog to whistle means get there quick!
Don't worry too much, we've all been there!

While I think the man with the Pointer overreacted and was very rude by what you have described of your dogs behaviour I find that unacceptable and I would never ever allow my dogs to behave in this way. You of all people having rescue dogs should realise that many dogs are very intimidated by a dogs that chase them in this manner.

How would you feel if you put loads of time and effort into training a dog thats been nervous with other dogs you get to a stage you can allow them off lead and feel they can cope with other dogs when a manice dog comes running up and chasing your dog! Hell, I would be very anoyed and that could result in all that time and training wasted in 1 minute of some irresponsiable owner allowing there dog to behave in that way.

Please think about the other person and there dog, I accept the man was very rude which was unacceptable but we do get very emotive when it comes to our dogs, if you dog had of chased mine in that manner I would have had words with you.

Hi Ash,

Don't beat yourself up - You made a mistake, we ALL do it from time to time and from what you've said you realised he shouldn't have got to that point and are trying to do something about it by working on his recall :-)  You have to have eyes in the back of your head when you're out with active doggies! Good luck with the recall practise.

Karen

Sorry, but I have to agree with this. Keep them on a lead if they won't recall has to be the(only) plan.

Also please bear in mind that one day they may try to "play" with the wrong dog and get hurt. If they had tried this with either of the Kerries I have owned they would have got a  very nasty shock.

I'm sorry Ashlee but I can understand why the man was so upset, although of course that is no excuse for being aggressive to you. I have borzois and hunt around to find empty fields to walk them in, I've always done this as it's the sighthound instinct to chase if something runs. My worry would be that the dog they're chasing gets really frightened and just bolts - then you've lost them all. No matter how tempting golf courses look I wouldn't dream of letting them off there as you can't control who else appears and what tempting looking dogs they may have. I would recommend you search around for empty fields, even empty tennis courts - somewhere fully fenced where you can watch the gate before you let them off to play.

I have to agree with Chaumsong. There is no excuse for aggressiveness in the owner but he has a point. We walk our dogs in parks and golf courses which are a delight but spolit by the constant fear of a loose dog coming up and scaring the living day lights out of our small dogs.
Of the 8 we now own we dare only take one each at a time and keep them on leads so if needs be can pick them up. If I got a pound for every owner that said " its okay he is only playing" or "he won't bite" I'd be a millionaire. We don't know the dogs nor they know the ability of our dogs to withstand such behaviour. One of our boys was trampled on my a loose afgan some years ago and this resulted in spinal surgery. He has an terrible fear of larger dogs and we are always picking him up or curtailing our walk because of other dogs running sometimes well ahead of their owners and how do we know how the dog is going to react.
I am all for allowing dogs to run free and to embrace their natural instincts but I would like to see dogs restrained in areas of high use by other dog users so we can all enjoy exercise time

I'm not an aggressive person but I might have reacted like the man in his situation.

Both my dogs who are very well socialised with other dogs would have reacted badly to your dogs' behaviour :(  One is a sensitive soul and would have bolted completely as she has never liked being chased and snapped at by big dogs.  The other one is more robust and would have retaliated at the first snap.  She was treated like this by a young Boxer who then bounced all over her (he kept getting between myself and my dog preventing her from coming back to me)  until she got him by the nose and wouldn't let go.  The owner couldn't understand why she did that as 'he was only playing'.  But a 6 stone Boxer bouncing on an 18lb Bedlington is likely to result in injury to the Bedlie.

>If I got a pound for every owner that said " its okay he is only playing" or "he won't bite" I'd be a millionaire. We don't know the dogs nor do they know the ability of our dogs to withstand such behaviour

Totally agree!

I wrote this post so,in doing so I ask for opinions,the last few,have almost agreed that I should be spoken to in this way?or perhaps needed to 'have words'
Just to clarify,this whole chasing incident lasted about 15 seconds,my dog stopped the chase as soon as he saw this man yelling in my face(as frightened of agressive raised voices)

I have let my dogs run round this course  for 4 years without incident , it is right on the beach so completely safe,if I meet a dog we dont know,goes on the lead.This time wasn't fast enough .
My own dog,peg, has been chased into the road by a gsd,owner apologised to me and I accepted,so I do know how scary it is.

The one thing I never worry about is small dogs,as for some reason,my dog daws,really likes them and has never bullied or chased asmall dog,plays nearly everyday with a small terrier,a fox terrier,two cocker spaniels,an english bull terrier,a collie,two springer spaniels and a bulldog.
Recall is a problem,I admit,but I dont usually have to call him off another dog as he doesn't usually go mad.

I can understand people being cross with u I have had words with people who have let my dogs be chased and scared. I have a friend with a rotti who was a big softee however a bull terrier chased her one day and only wanted to play but alarmed the rotti who was young and impressionable, it has resulted in a rotti who doesn't like strange dogs and that is not fair on her owner. BUT you know u have a problem and need to work on the dogs. U also accept that your dogs were in the wrong.
I used to have a dog who was difficult and a few people had a go at me about him although I have to say alot of people labelled him as bad because he was the local rescue dog, totally unfair and he never harmed anyone. As long as you learn from the experience don't worry about it. Just be more on guard and of course quicker next time.

Have fun

The one thing I never worry about is small dogs,as for some reason,my dog daws,really likes them and has never bullied or chased asmall dog,plays nearly everyday with a small terrier,a fox terrier,two cocker spaniels,an english bull terrier,a collie,two springer spaniels and a bulldog.
Wow, I don't want to harp on this point as enough has been said but you say you never worry about small dogs, what about me and my dogs who don't like big dogs bounding up to us. We don't know your dog and any loose dog that runs towards us is seen as a threat...has to be. You say you know how scary it can be but I don't think you fully understand how it feels until you are walking small dogs, in our case mini dachshunds

ditto last post, my small dog is socialable, but hates being chased by large dogs. and yours maybe ok with small ones, but if mine was chased by yours she would run in fear, tail between legs, if they would carry on- she would hit the ground, roll over, then turn defensive.

she would be fine if yours said 'hi' nicely, but gets very worried when chased before she has made friends.

i love seeing dogs of all size/breeds playing and chasing, but in my dogs case, they need a little control to do so happily.

i just wouldnt want your dogs being attacked when they chase- it may scar their experience and look for aggression, or cause a negative response...if i was the other person in that situation, i would at first sign of the chase, would have called to you to stop your dogs, if you didnt, by that time Flo would be on the ground and i would have to run upto them and pick her up/or try to get your dogs away. either way its a backward step in Flo's confidence.

My dogs was chased a few times when she was a pup.  She does not like being approached by any dog.  She has pretty good recall and so I can avoid situations without putting her on a lead.  If we have to pass a dog closeby I put her on a lead.  However, dogs that don't have good recall or owners who don't seem to be bothered about their dog approaching other dogs are a real nuisance to me and puts my dog's training back every time.  Dogs that approach will cause my dog to run off (usually in circles in my vicinity) but there comes a point when the other dog will turn to return to its owner and at that point my dog will chase it, nip its back legs and has even brought dogs down.  I feel guilty but also angry at the other dog's owner.

Sorry ,what I was trying to say was that he normaly plays well with small dogs, (and most dogs)I actually sometimes meet a lady with mini dachshunds and I do keep mine away as yes,I am scared they will get trampled on accidently.

>daws has a habit when he runs,he opens and closes his gob as if he is trying to bite the hind quarters of the dog in chase,but never does, and after 4 years of this I am not worried,this is just play,they do it to eachother and a bit of neck biting,but never broken skin, just a bit of hanging on,a nd most times not even that.

The problem is that while you know daws doesn't bite, a complete stranger watching his dogs being borne down upon by what looks like the Hound from Hell, cannot be expected to know similarly!

I don't think I would have lost my rag quite so comprehensively but I'm lucky to have a small confident dog who isn't easily spooked and who is extremely dog friendly. However, as he's got older, he's got less and less keen on finding himself forced into situations by dogs he hasn't had a chance to give a friendly "once-over".

It's just plain good manners to make sure your dog is under complete control although I recognise this is a deal easier to say than do! So sometimes it's a case of back to basics  or even recognising that some walks might have to be taken on lead.

15 seconds can feel like forever when a dog you don't know is chasing and snapping at your dog :(  and if the dog were to bolt in fear you might never get them back :(

Lets face it if he were hunting this is just how he'd do it, so how is a stranger supposed tell the difference??

Unfortunately it only takes one bad experience to ruin a carefully brought up and socialised youngster  and it isn't always possible to rectify the problem afterwards :( :(

Since the Boxer incident when she was a youngster my oldest bitch will not tolerate any larger dog bouncing about her, she wants to defend first and ask questions later and all the training since hasn't made any difference in this situation :(  She's perfectly happy tho if the dog says hello first and invites her to play nicely.

can only imagine how scarey this incident must have been for the man, his wife and their daughter...a family enjoying a walk with their beloved dog, only to have it chased by a dog with a gaping open mouth, looking as if it would tear their dog to pieces...imagine how the man felt not just for his dog but with his wife and child witnessing all this...I'm not in the least suprized he lost his temper. I think you would do well, OP, to read up on the laws relating to the DDA, especially in the present climate.

I agree that a dog galloping toward your own can be a scary experience, and have been on the recieving end more than once! However, I feel that training your dog can be like running through a minefield...you are going to encounter problems whichever way you turn.
I tried to teach Tansy recall on a long lead to no avail, and I have no doubt that she would still be on it if I hadn't eventually let her off to play with a lovely dog in our local park. Despite my trepidation, Tansy came when called as though she had been doing it all her life. I have no idea why this would be. Her recall is not 100%, but it is around 98%. She is only allowed off lead where there is no danger from traffic, and has more interest in her ball these days.
I have to say though, that when ALL the dogs on the beach are ignoring one another, it saddens me, and I am sometimes pleased when one errant sweetheart does come up to play. I guess we can't have the best of both worlds.
I have no friends with young dogs who Tansy can go for a walk with, and people I met at the training class just fell flat as far as meeting up went.
I think I made almost no sense in some of that post

Sorry, but I'm another in the camp who would have been very cross indeed with you, although obviously I would not be aggressive. On more than one occasion, my heart has been in my mouth watching my dog scarper while the other dog's owner laughs and tells me that they're friendly.

My oldest girl is a sensitive soul who hates being raced at by dogs and would probably have bolted to the next county. I'm very careful to watch for other dogs approaching - she has excellent recall under normal circumstances, and as long as I get hold of her collar while other dogs approach and they say hello at a standstill, she's fine to then go about her walk.

M.

My daughter's whippet also chases whilst opening and closing his mouth, giving the impression that he wants to bite!  Again, everyone who knows him also knows that it's just his way.

I think the real point here is that you say the other dog was trying to get away.  If that's the case then certainly your dogs should immediately be called off.  The other dog did not see this as play, and it's the dogs that matter.

I am in no way excusing this man's behaviour.  I think he overreacted and by threatening to harm your dog he showed that he is just a nasty piece of work.  (I once had a papillon knocked unconscious in a similar situation.  He was out cold for over half an hour and in the vet's for 2 days before he was stable enough to return home).

I'm also one of the dog owners  whose dog is an eager boisterous player.  I generally walk her now where it is quiet and I'm also on the look out for dogs, that I can spot them first before she does, otherwise she is off.  I generally put her on the lead or wait holding her till the owner is close enough so I can ask whether their dog likes playing and when they agree I tell them that my dog is boisterous before I let her off.  It's a pain in the neck and spoils my walks, but that's it.  

I thought this thread was over,but i feel it is important that I reply,first of all calmstorm,DDA,do you seriously think I have a dangerous dog,?would I let a dangerous dog off the lead? Can you read? I did say he has never bitten another dog,or has been outright aggressive.

This is one unfortunate incident.I have since,muzzled him,for my peace of mind,to which everyone I know has said it was too extreme,but its my decision.
Sadly again,I met this family+dog,they moved well away from me,my dog did not chase their dog,and I was just thinking ok,I will show you the same respect next time,I will go the other way,when I saw this man bend down and pick up a stone.

IF I ever see this again,or if he ever does such a thing as throw a stone at my dog,regardless of what my dog is doing,IT WILL BE the last stone he ever gets to chuck.

Today I met a lady who breeds and shows her pointers,I hadn't seen her for a while,and she kindly made a point of coming over to chat to me,as lots of people had told her what happened,and she wanted to reassure me,we have always kept our dogs apart,as they all go mad together,(hers chase mine to distraction if we let them)but funnily enough today,they all stood in a circle.
So everyone I know who walks with me,or says hi,has,in fact made a point of saying,its a one off and dont worry,yet,on here,I seem to get extreme views,from one end of the scale to the other.

Your dog is playful and I do feel sorry for you as I know it's difficult to keep an excited large dog under control. I have a Dobe and I have found the words, leave it invaluable. Don't stress or get uptight as the dog will sense it and be the same and then things can go OTT. If he's to boisterous, just keep walking away and look unintrested and he should follow...well he should. Personaly I have found it's best to get a second dog and keep away from littleuns. Good luck. I hope things get better for you soon and don't give up because of one incident as that doesn't make you a bad owner, your just a caring one.

I think what cslmstorm was referring to was that it doesn't matter whether your dog is aggressive or not, if someone fears for themselves or their dog then they could in theory get your dog classed as a dangerous dog. My dog tends to go up to people and bark, she doesn't mean any harm, but i cannot let her do it as if someone is scared of her i could be prosecuted for having a dangerous dog. If it looks like it is out of control then you are potentially in the wrong no matter what the dogs intentions.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but just wondering how your new addition is settling in? :D

Yes, I can read, and no, I didnt say you had a dangerous dog, but if you actually read the wording of the DDA you will see the dog does not have to attack, simply put someone in fear of an attack. With the situation in this country and the attitude towards dogs it is an act to know backwards and comply with, no matter how badly thought out it is. I'm sure someone here can post the link to the wording for you. (I have no idea how to do links)

I'm not suprised they moved well away from you the next time they saw you, I don't expect they wanted a repeat performance. You say they moved well away from you, so maybe when the man bent down he had actually dropped something, not picking up a stone? You see, your next comment of what you would do if he threw a stone at your dog is much the same as the anger he felt towards you when he thought your dog was about to attack his. Defensive, and remember his wife and child were there too.

As everyone who walks there is so very friendly, why can't you get one or two of them to chat to this man and try to build bridges, or does he not talk to any other of the dog walkers?

Hopefully it is a one off, and your dog won't go off chasing another until you both agree with its owner that it is ok. You also run the risk, you know, of your dog being attacked by his behaviour, so its for his safety too.

OK, calmstorm I see your point about the DDA,and I didn't mean to be sarcastic about the can you read bit either.

It is obvious to me this famiy love their dog,but no, no one I know speaks to them much as they find them a bit strange even before this thing happened.Dont know why.
I actually walked with them quite a while ago one day,my dogs wanted to play,but theirs did not,so I grabbed mine and walked on.They were ok,just worried and protective of their dog,although peg and daw did not do anything,they were just chasing eachother.
I actually forgot I had met them before,they keep their dog away from all other dogs now I think about it.

I have a sad feeling I will bang heads with this man again,I dont want to,I am not sure I could speak to him atall,but you know, catch me on a good day and I will try.

Here is a link to the DDA.
The actual wording for when a dog hasn't injured anyone is:

(3) If the owner or, if different, the person for the time being in charge of a dog allows it to enter a place which is not a public place but where it is not permitted to be and while it is there--

       (a) it injures any person; or

       (b) there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will do so,

he is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection.

VERY interestingly, I have read and re-read the act several times now but can ONLY find the reference to "causing apprehension" if the dog is NOT in a public place! So did the dog papers (read: my ex husband LOL!!! as he was responsible for most of the reports in them when the DDA was brought in) actually exaggerate this all along? Or am I reading it wrong?

   Keeping dogs under proper control.

        3.--(1) If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place--
(a) the owner; and
(b) if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog,
is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection.

How the law defines a dangerously out of control dog.

     (3) For the purposes of this Act a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person, whether or not it actually does so, but references to a dog injuring a person or there being grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will do so do not include references to any case in which the dog is being used for a lawful purpose by a constable or a person in the service of the Crown.

This is not directed at the OP in any way. I would say the section above, and the way the law defines a dangerously out of control dog, would cover the apprehension side of things should a person become injured, or be in fear of being injured. How that relates to another dog being attacked, or the person being in fear of it being attacked I don't know, unless they thought by their dog coming back to them they would then be injured, or they felt whoever was with them could be.

Hmmm i understand you being upset but if I thought a dog was actually going to hurt my dog (rather than just being boisterous and giving it a fright) then i'd lift whatever was to hand and probably shout at you too (but probably as a precursor to going home and having a cry because of the fright i'd had! :) ) rather than stand back and watch.....but you do have my sympathy as I belive that it was 'accidental', i.e. you didn't manage to get a lead on soon enough.

Ever thought about an electric collar?  I was near to despair with my lab who had a tendency to turn a deaf ear when being recalled - but the collar basically distracted her from what she was doing long enough to pay attention to me!  I thought long and hard before getting one as I imagined my poor pooch with her hair standing on end and smoke coming from her ears, but it really did just make her stop and shake her head a bit!  It beeps before it gives the 'stimulation' and now if i'm going somewhere that there are lots of distracting things I put the collar on, but rarely need to use it, and even then I just use a beep on its own which seems to bring her attention back to me quite quickly!

Ever thought about an electric collar?

There is a campaign to ban the use of electric collars in the whole of the UK (they're already banned in Wales). And quite rightly so.  If you can't teach your dog without inflicting pain then you're doing something drasticly wrong.

Debs

You try it with my dog - super intelligent and super stubborn in one move - and nothing will make her come back when she thinks there's something more interesting to investigate - not even food!

:rolleyes:   and most labs would do anything for food too :(

Thought I should be a bit more constructive than my previous horrified post. Please don't use an electric collar on your dog, particularly one as sensitive as a saluki - the poor thing can't possibly understand why it's neck is hurting it and may just bolt...never to be seen again!

Have you ever used the collar on yourself??  I did and I can assure you that on the correct setting the sensation is unpleasant but not painful!

As you say it is unpleasant and that is with the benefit of human understanding now imagine what that 'unpleasant' is like with the added ignorance of what it is, where it is coming from and what it might be a precursor to.  I have had similar experiences actually, when I suffered a paralysed arm following an RTA.  The stimulation was mild but I found it made my heart race and was an all round frightening and unpleasant experience and that was with my appreciation of the benefits.  Not something I would wish on any dog I am afraid.  I really can't see it is necessary either.  Labradors can be daft but they are basically very bidable, breed to obey, thousands manage to train them without out any difficultly without recorse to this.  Now I am not the most effective trainer in the world but logics dictates that if I was having difficulty with such a dog there are people out there that would help me achieve whatever was necessary because it has all be achieved before. :)

I'm not going to get into a long debate about this as its too subjective - but needless to say I think its a tad arrogant to make sweeping statements like 'labradors are biddable, bred to obey' etc as there is always the exception to the rule - and my bitch is convinced she knows best and will come back in her own good time!

>I think its a tad arrogant to make sweeping statements like 'labradors are biddable, bred to obey'

Perhaps or perhaps it is arrogant of you to assume there was no other way of training your dog without electricity and that somebody else would not have been just as successful using kinder more positive methods.

Have you ever tried it on you??  Its quite unpleasant but not painful (assuming you have it set correctly)!  The guidelines in the book that came with mine said to start at level 1 and work your way up, and when your dog actually registers that something has happened by looking round or pricking its ears then thats what you go with to start with.  I had great results with mine in about ten minutes and our walks are now a pleasure for both of us!

I've tried them on myself and they certainly aren't pleasant even on the low settings, I knew it was coming and it still gave me a fright and made me jump.  There are alot of dangers with them, including them causing burns as well as complete confusion to your dog and the possibility of negative association to other things they may be foccused on at the time of the shock.  In my opinion if you need to resort to shocking your dog to train basic obedience then you need to rethink your training methods :rolleyes: either that or walk them on a lead.  I'm sure the OP wouldn't consider using something like this on her rescue dog any way.

Also if you managed to train your lab a good recall in 10 mins using the collar then you could undoubtedly have trained the same thing using positive methods - you just need to find a way of effectively communicating what you are expecting from your dog.  Sorry but in my opinion it's just lazy training as well as abussive.

Karen

I suggest you can only achieve that by raising it to a level to frighten the dog sufficiently to avoid a repetition.  Not a very modern method of training which is generally achieved with rewards these days.  I sincerely hope the campaign to ban these things is successful. 

Have you ever tried it on you??

Nope. 

Please bear in mind that if you give this advice to someone who happens to live in Wales you will be suggesting they break the law. 

Very soon the rest of the UK will follow suit, of that I have no doubt.  If you live in the UK I strongly suggest you start another training program for your dog that doesn't require the use of an electric collar as pretty soon they will be banned and you will be breaking the law.

Debs

More on that welcome news :)

Oh that DOES look like good news is on the horizon Isabel :d

Debs

Have you ever tried it on you??  Its quite unpleasant but not painful (assuming you have it set correctly)!

So the KC ad the MPs (several) that tried the collar on on two occasions are all unusually soft I assume as they all stated how unpleasant it was and how surprised they were at just HOW unpleasant?  Let me quote an official press release from the KC:

Following the success of the Kennel Club's presence at the Labour Party Conference, the Kennel Club External Affairs Department attended the Conservative Party Conference in Bournemouth last Tuesday at the invitation of Conservative Animal Welfare.

The Kennel Club demonstrated to MPs and delegates the barbaric electric shock collar and there was unanimous agreement that the electric shock collar was not only painful but was also cruel and unnecessary.  Below are comments from several MPs who were brave enough to be shocked by the collar at one third of its full power:

*  Richard Benyon MP: "That's horrible.  I've heard both arguments from my constituents, but that was certainly painful and as a dog owner I definitely would not use one."
*  David Mundell MP: "That was very unpleasant.  I would certainly not want to use that on my dog".
*  Eleanor Laing MP: "Oh my goodness!  That really hurt!  Imagine if that was used on a dog's neck.  That is positively cruel and I am disgusted.  Why can't people use traditional, positive training methods? I am a complete convert and will definitely be signing the EDM."
*  Graham Stuart MP (who was not initially in favour of a total ban) said: "That felt really bad I have to say and gives you pause for thought.  I've heard the arguments but I would be extremely reluctant to want to see an animal with that round its neck."
*  Roger Gale MP: "This demonstration proves that the use of electric shock collars is not a satisfactory way to train an animal.  I would like to see changes in the Animal Welfare Bill to outlaw these products."
More

*  Mr Roger Baker, Joint Chairman of the Conservative Animal Welfare Group and a practising vet said: "I am horrified that electric shock collars are available. They should not be used on dogs in any circumstances. If you need this sort of cruelty to keep dogs under control then you shouldn't own an animal."

Said Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary: "The Kennel Club is heartened that so many MPs are in favour of a complete ban on electric shock collars. This shows that the issue of shock collars goes beyond party lines and that there is cross party support for a complete ban on their sale and use. The Kennel Club is grateful to Conservative Animal Welfare and in particular Roger Gale MP, for allowing us to test the collar on him and his parliamentary colleagues".

The Kennel Club would like readers to bring further pressure to bear on Defra and the government. To find out how you can get involved in the campaign please contact Laura Vallance or Holly Lee on 020 7518 1020 or lvallance@the-kennel-club.org.uk

Alternatively download the electric shock collar surgery guide on how to lobby your MP from:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1788/mpsurgerypack.pdf

ENDS

11 October 2006                  (265.06)

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Hi Ashlee
I've been on the receiving end of this type of incident often.  If it's small friendly dogs I don't mind but it's rarely small dogs it is mainly larger dogs that mine pose no threat to, people don't worry the same when they know their dog is physically superior.  
It is a nightmare if I have my 4 dogs on or off leads when a dog comes at them.  On one occaision while walking through woods a whippet came charging at mine doing the mouth opening senario and chased Jack who was not a socialised puppy into raspberry canes and he got trapped, I cut all my hands untangling him, it leaves you fed up. 

Yes the fella got excited with you but the incident was too much for him and you.  If you had said sorry mate straight away it might have diffused the situation.  If owners apologise right away instead of defending behaviour people cope with the situation and they may even talk the next time they meet.  The best you can do now is put it behind you. 
Laura

yes and what happens when a small dog comes up to a big dog and you a have it on a lead  or off and it barks and snarls what are you so suppose to do does not the dangerousley dog apply i have both a gsd and a shelltie and i know the small dog will have a go at the big dog any time but if you have a big dog it is not allowed to tell the small dog back off cos it will be classsed as dangerously wheather   it wants to play or not

The DDA only applies to dog-to-human aggression, not dog-to-dog.

That as it may, you are still liable for prosecution. My friend is currently awaiting a court case becuase her gsd chased a small dog that ran up to her barking. Small dog was fine, but they are still taing her to court and the judge ruled that they will hear the case.