See post on Rainbow Bridge, but it set me off thinking......
I found a dog at the side of the road this evening very badly injured..... :(
I tried the RSPCA who didn't want to know as she wasn't technically ''a cruelty case'' and the emergency vet number that I have.... (not my vet, but the one I have to use when mine is closed)....
They told me that they couldn't touch the dog unless I had the owners permission. I explained that it didn't have a collar or tag and they eventually agreed to treat it if I brought her in to them (15 miles away) and if I would be responsible for the bill. I was quite willing to do this, but she sadly died of her injuries at the roadside. People were just walking and driving past her..... :(
It set me off thinking, if the RSPCA won't help, the vet isn't interested and the dog wardens/council etc are not on duty, what happens usually ??
This is something that has never happened before and I hope it never happens again, but I would like to be 100% sure of what to do next time. This happened outside a police station (which was closed although the police were on duty inside) and luckily a kind policeman stopped to help us on his way back in.
Anybody have any ideas on what the ''norm'' would be in this situation.....

Thanks,
Gabrielle x

I simply cannot believe the RSPCA would not come out for this! No, not doubting you, I just don't know how they had the nerve to fail to attend! I thought they were supposed to be there for animal welfare? How could they possibly leave a dog so injured and say it wasn't their problem? We found a ferrit once, in our hedgerow, very badly injured. We managed to contain it and called the RSPCA. they were busy, but told us someone would come. They kept us updated by phone and did arrive, sadly although it was alive when they arrived, it did die before they could do anything for it. My point being, they do go out to injured animals, so why they didn't in your case I think quite frankly needs investigating.

This was such an awful situation for you to be in, and to have the dog die in your arms must have been awful. It also makes a total ass of the laws that state a dog cannot be treated without its owners permission, especially with one so injured. Is a vet really not allowed to end suffering/treat a badly injured dog, without the owners permission? Surely this is where the RSPCA should be able to step in? Its just so awful.

The vets take an oath similar to doctors are obilged to treat an suffering animal(they are supposed to treat any injured wild animal for example)

Disgusting that the vet wouldn't attend a dying animal in pain

Gabrielle you did a wonderful thing staying with the poor girl and helping as much as you could.

I'm so angry that the vet (who I thought should treat any animal that was suffering) refused to come out and the RSPCA complete lack of compassion

It's been posted somewhere on this forum today, that it is illegal for an owner to deny a sick animal treatment - maybe someone should tell this vet and the RSPCA!

Thank goodness the poor girl had you and the policeman by her side for her last minutes.

It's so so sad.

Maria

What kind of vet would leave an animal to suffer. If they only think of the money then they should not be allowed to call themselves vets, that is disgusting.

If this is your out of hours help when your own vets are closed maybe you should have a word with your practise about their out of hours cover!!!

Absolutely disgusting.

Very very sad story. :( :(  Well done Gabrielle for your kindness and also to the policeman for getting involved but what a dreadful reflection on the RSPCA and the vet.  I can't believe the animal could not be treated without its owner's permission.

My vets have put wild animals down for me without any charge in the past but I suppose with animals that belong to people it is a different ball game.  I don't know that we can blame vets in this litigious age.  It's the devil and the deep blue sea, risk starting, possibly lengthy and expensive treatment that may not even be in the interest of the dog or put it down without permission from the owner either way they may face legal action.
As for the RSPCA, we have had this discussion before, using them as an ambulance service is not really their job, no further suffering would have been preventing by their coming out/calling a vet/removing the animal than whoever else on the scene doing it.

I wouldn't have cared who come out to her Isabel, I just wanted someone to come and help and nobody would..... I was quite prepared to pay for any treatment she needed but the point is no-one at first would help and by the time someone agreed, she was dead.......

I have spoken to my vet this morning, and expressed my disgust at the out of hours vets lack of help.. she too is appalled and will be speaking to their manager some time today.....

While everybody in this sort of situation ums and ars over the legalities of it, is that what animals should expect..... to be left to suffer...... ??

Gabrielle

Of course you did Gabrielle, you did everything that could possibly be expected I just think the way people these days are quick to lay blame if things don't work out well could be one of the reasons the vets were reluctant.  Another issue could have been the distant.  I didn't realise you were needed them to come to you.  I know my out of hours vets covers their own area as well as mine in their reciprical agreement which is quite a large area.  To come 15 miles might have taken them very far from the other extremity of their patch leaving people there without any emergency cover they may have been hoping you would have looked a bit nearer, who knows :)  I am glad your vet will look into things for you.

I had no problem with taking her to the emergency vet, but as a nurse I also know not to move someone who is injured.... :)
She was bleeding badly from her mouth and ear so I didn't want to take a chance on moving her really. The emergency vets is a large practice of 4 vets on duty until 10pm at night, then it reduces. This was just after 6pm so I don't think that insufficient cover was a factor..... more like you said, a legal issue.........
Lets hope I never face the situation again...... :(

Gabrielle x

I suppose the vet knew that if the dog was to have any chance of survival it would have to be treated at the surgery - the only thing they could do at the roadside would be put the poor thing to sleep, which is why you were told to bring her in. But it does seem a heartless attitude to take with an animal in destress. :(

Just thought I should mention that I have my dogs covered against this. If my dogs are found injured then they have pet protect tags which I have signed a form to say they can be treated and I will pay which when the vets phone they will fax this form to the vets. I would hate for my dogs not to be treated if the help was available :-(
GG

when i worked at vets, we had a local (but not the best run rescue) that would help by picking up animal and taking to vets, they would foot the bill too. unfortunatley/fortunately they couldnt stop helping and are seriously indebt..

me personally would of made sure i did what i could- which you did, and keep her warm.

When my dog was run over a few years ago (after being let out by theives) it took us 3 days to locate her by which time she had been through several operations.  Someone took her to a local police station who in turn took her to emergency vets. She had 4 operations in all was kept for 3 weeks and we were only charged a small amount of the full bill.  When i asked the vets why they told me that they never put a healthy dog to sleep and would have done the same for the dog even if no-one had claimed her.  From that day I now use the very same vets.

Poor you- but well done you for staying with her :-(  This happened to me last year with my cat, someone found him at the road side and took him to the PDSA, they even offered to pay for the fee's if his owner couldn't be traced but the vet decided to PTS anyway before trying any treatment- they were worried the cost would be expensive and the lady might change her mind once she realised.  If only they'd tried a bit harder though- he was m'chipped so I was easily traceable and furthermore he had an accident a good few years back and had the ball & socket joint removed on his hip- this op cost a lot- so surely the vet should have know he was a much loved pet :-( 

It still upsets me to think of this, I can't help but think had I been there or had it been my vets I would have insisted on trying treatment and they might have tried with him.  The only consolation I have is that the lady who he had to spend his last few hours with was lovely to him and he wasn't alone- so well done to you, it makes all the difference to them x

Stacey x   

Hi

My dog was run over 7 years ago. I wasnt there but the person who ran her over tried to phone me. No on the disc but I wasnt in as I was out looking for said dog. :o((

They then phoned the police who in turn phoned the local vet who came out to her. she was dead, I believe killed instantly.

The vet actually knew my dog as I had been there that morning with her and it was them that phoned me to tell me what had happened. I wasnt charged anything and they disposed of the body to, with my permission.

I am assuming they billed the police as it was them that called them out. To be honest I was in such a state I didnt think about payment and just thought they would send me the bill.

Not sure what I would do if I found a stray like this, I cant afford to cover another dogs vets fees, but I couldnt leave it. I though the police had a obligation to take stray dogs and if it is injured they are passed on to the vet. If not the local pound. I cant remember but either the police or the local council cover the cost of the treatment

When one watches the RSPCA on 'the telly' they are more than happy to be seen wizzing round catching wild ducks, cats up trees, and investigating animals alledged to be mistreated.Then whisk them off to the vet for treatment, regardless of knowing who the owner may be. So what was different in this case, the dog was an apparent stray, no tag or owner, and badly injured and suffering. If the dog had been in someones home and suffering so, it would have been removed, so what is the difference here? Hardly an ambulance service, but an essential removal to a vets to stop the suffering this animal was so very obviously in. Or, they could have attended the scene and called the vet that they use. Makes you wonder what they collect money for, when they won't attend a badly injured animal. They make such a fuss about docking and bloodsports yet refuse to tend to an injured animal.......:rolleyes: However, I know they do turn out to injured animals, so I have no idea why they failed to attend this one I do feel sympathy for vets in this situation though, put the dog to sleep to save suffering may result in legal proceedings from an irate owner who wouldn't believe that nothing could have been done, or totally expensive vet care should it have been possible to save the dogs life, and an owner unwilling to pay because it would have been better to PTS at the scene......and should it die under treatment again legal proceedings for lack of care. The vet is almost damned if they do, damned if they don't.

>they are more than happy to be seen wizzing round catching wild ducks, cats up trees, and investigating animals alledged to be mistreated.

Exactly, they are best at use on the rescues and, possible, prosecutions cases as nobody else will fit this role but when it would makes no difference to the animals outcome who gets it to a vet I think their, charitably funded, efforts are probably best concentrated on the sort of things you mention.  There are not a huge number of employees either, something over 300 for the whole country if I remember rightly, which, given shift patterns to be covered may have meant a long wait for one to become available too.  I think when we, as humans, are used to an NHS emergency ambulance service it is perhaps easy to forget that no such thing exists for animals and probably never will.

"Makes you wonder what they collect money for, when they won't attend a badly injured animal"

Collect money so they can wage lengthy legal campaigns such as the one last year where they prosecuted a police officer for putting a cat which had been run over out of its misery.  From recollection the story went that the cat was run over, a police officer attended first but decided that the best course of action was to get a spade and dispatch the cat quickly.  The rspca said that only they or a vet were qualified to assess whether it was suffering or not, and took action against the officer.  A vet examined the animal and apparently said the the lower half of the cat's body had been squashed flat (FLAT!) by the wheel and the officer did the right thing.  The judge threw the case out - but it really makes you wonder whether they have their priorities right! 

If my cat was lying on the road, squashed flat from the middle down, I would hope that someone would be brave enough to do anything they could to put it out of its misery as soon as possible - not hang around waiting for the rspca to come out!

If my cat was lying on the road, squashed flat from the middle down, I would hope that someone would be brave enough to do anything they could to put it out of its misery as soon as possible - not hang around waiting for the rspca to come out!

I hope that isn't a dig at me for requesting them to help......??? I wouldn't have cared who came out, I just wanted some help and support for a dog that was dying and not even mine !!!!!! ......

Gabrielle

I'm sure it wasn't but rather a dig about how useless the RSPCA are anyway :)  Which is in a way is the point really, not that they are useless :D but that when you consider it they cannot really do anymore than what caring passers by do like yourself do anyway ie search around for a local vet to help and transport the animal to them if necessary.   It's interesting that you mention support and I wonder if, in fact that is the thing you missed the most.  I suppose it would be nice to think we could call someone up and they will come and sort it all out but you did as good a job as any one could :)

I'm sure it wasn't but rather a dig about how useless the RSPCA are anyway   Which is in a way is the point really, not that they are useless  but that when you consider it they cannot really do anymore than what caring passers by do like yourself

But I thought all RSPCA officers were trained to be able to PTS any animal that was beyond medical care? If they had come out they could have ended this poor dog's suffering. I also think it would be practically impossible for one person to be able to lift a severely injured mastiff - or even a healthy one come to that - by themselves so it seems unrealistic to expect someone to put it in their car and take it to a vet and that is supposing there is a car available. An RSPCA van would seem to me to be an ideal vehicle for such a large, badly injured dog. In a situation such as the one the poor OP found herself in I would have thought the RSPCA was a logical choice to ask for assistance for a dog who was suffering.

I am not sure at all that they can destroy an animal.  They always seem to use vets on the TV progammes.  A van and another lifter would be useful but if they are 15 miles away it might not be the better option than making use of what is available closer to hand and that is assuming they could come straight away and did not have any other emergencies to deal with, as I say there are only 311 inspectors in the whole of the UK.  Given annual leave, sick leave and 24/7 rostaring there cannot be many to the square mile!

I am not sure at all that they can destroy an animal.  They always seem to use vets on the TV progammes

You may well be right Isabel :) I was thinking back to a television series that followed a group of new recruits to the RSPCA and one of the things they all had to do was attend a slaughterhouse and use a humane killer on a cow. They were told that they all had to do this as there would be times in their career when they would have no choice but to put a suffering animal out of it's misery. One lad could not bring himself to do it and was unable to continue with the training.  Perhaps it is a different protocol for smaller animals.

No no no please don't misunderstand me -  it wasn't a dig - but more that in cases where an animal really just needs someone to put it out of its misery (rather than bolt a few bones together and give it another 5 years of happy life!) the RSPCA prosecuting someone who does that is really quite disgusting!

>I though the police had a obligation to take stray dogs

No, since the advent of dog wardens the responsibility for stray dogs was removed from the police and given to the local council. Of course, the dog warden's usually only on duty during 'office hours', so if anything that happens outside those times it'll have to wait. :rolleyes:

When the vets I work for are called out to an injured animal and the owner can't be traced they have to foot the bill themselves.

I've sadly been in the same situation where a dog was knocked down outside our house. RSPCA said it was too far to come on a Sunday (15 miles)!!! I ended up with a police car outside the house and the officer insisting someone at the station found a vet that would treat it - they all refused unless someone was going to pay (and I wasn't in a position to at the time or I would have). Eventually we helped him to lift the dog into his boot and he took it off in his squad car. The vet decided the poor dog was too far gone and it was PTS - not surprising considering the two hour delay in treatment

The next day we had a very tearful owner at our door thanking us for all we had done, the police had told them we had tried to help.

From that day on I have refused to give anything to support the RSPCA.

I read of a little dog tied up and placed in a tunnel. A walker heard the dogs pitiful cries, and called out the RSPCA. Injured dog, no owner. At the time, it was not known what the problem was, could simply have been a dog straying and trapped, possibly injured. They attended, and I don't remember how, but the dog was got out, where it was found to be tied in a way that meant someone had stuffed it in there. RSPCA took it to the vet. Following treatment, it was placed in a new home, the owners traced and faced charges. It was a big case, made all the papers at the time. My point is, at the time of calling out, the RSPCA had no idea if this was a cruelty case or not, stray dog or not, and others were at the scene. What is the difference between that and the roadside accident? The RSPCA can come and take over and request vet treatment, paid for by the public donations to this group. If they can go to any ill, malnurished stray dog, arrange a vet, and legally make the decision as to how its treated, then they should have come to the aid of this dog. I thought that was what they were supposed to be all about, preventing and eaising suffering to all animals, not being involved in politics and refusing treatment to a suffering animal. if there are not enough officers, they should certainly employ more, its a known fact they receive enough in public donations. Makes a total mockary of the new animal welfare bill because if they don't have enough officers now to do the job correctly, how will they ever manage to police the new bill? Pathetic. They have no excuse for failing to attend, and if it is their policy not to, then perhaps they should state that when begging for donations with expensive TV and magazine adverts.

The difference is the RSPCA have greater expertise in getting dogs out of rescue situations like this and gathering evidence for prosecutions, if that is suspected, than probably anybody else, assisted a dog at the road side falls into the capabilities of many others.  Policing a cruelty bill does not involve attending RTAs surely.  If you have a look at their web site they do outline their remit although I suppose it is open to intrepretation as to what rescue means for instance.

It's interesting that you mention support and I wonder if, in fact that is the thing you missed the most.

It really isn't a case about support, but is a situation anyone of us could find ourselves in and I merely asked if anyone knew what is the correct protocol to follow in a situation like this :) ........ I dialled the numbers that I had stored in my mobile phone which were the RSPCA and the Emergency Vet.....

I wasn't altogether surprised that the RSPCA wouldn't help, as lets face it.... it wasn't high profile enough and it wouldn't have given them the positive publicity that they crave, but that is a whole other thread and I am not getting into a debate........ :rolleyes:

I was lucky in the sense that there was three people in the end (with the policeman), but if I had been on my own I wouldn't have been able to pick this huge dog up and put her in my car as I am still recovering from major surgery. As I said, people were just walking and driving past and I was just curious as to whether there was another option that I could have taken that was 'correct', so that I will know what to do if it ever happens again.

Gabrielle

>I wasn't altogether surprised that the RSPCA wouldn't help, as lets face it.... it wasn't high profile enough and it wouldn't have given them the positive publicity that they crave, but that is a whole other thread and I am not getting into a debate........

I think that is rather unfair.
I don't think there is any correct procedure in these cases as I have said as humans we are very lucky in having an NHS emergency service we simply don't have that for animals.  I really don't think you can run anything like it from a charity that is so tiny in comparison.  It would be nice to have another option but lets face it people don't much like paying the taxes necessary to fund the NHS asking the donations to the RSPCA to cover a similar emergency service is unlikely to ever happen, we must all do what we can according to our abilities and shame on those who walked past.

It is my opinion, and I am not alone in this, that in the given circumstances of the roadside accident, it should have been expected the RSPCA attended and dealt with the situation, and attempted at a later date to trace the owner and bring charges should any apply. Same as any other neglected animal. They should have used their on call vets as they deemed necessary. if they could not attend at the time, those vets should have been contacted to attend. We don't have an emergency service for animals, but the RSPCA with their media advertising give the impression, when begging for donations, and on the TV programs about them, that they do, which is why so many will support them. Which is why they rake in thousands upon thousands of pounds each year, to issue even more expensive advertising and PR exercises.

assisted a dog at the road side falls into the capabilities of many others.

As does a cat up a tree when the owners and others are there, or a horse stuck in a ditch when the owners and others are there, but the RSPCA still attend, and if the owner is not present, or cannot be contacted, they will provide vet help............help, advice, support. This is the service the OP expected, as anyone would expect. However, as none of us know the rules and regulations of service for this group, i suppose none of us can really know what the rules are, but those that feel the RSPCA are not all they seem to be will vote with their purses and wallets, and I think more people are thinking that way. My sympathies are with the grass roots workers, tied up with the rules and regulations they themselves may not agree with.

As the RSPCA are so very short of numbers I would still love to know how they intend to police the new bill. :rolleyes: It takes time to do paperwork, inspections, and time out for lengthy court cases. Perhaps they will finally spend some of these charitable donations on what they are meant for, more officers. Or, maybe, the govn will actually give them some funding with their new powers. Time will tell.........;)

Their on call vets?  Do they have vets in every area or would they just contact the vets local to the incident as Gabrielle had to? 

>RSPCA with their media advertising give the impression, when begging for donations, and on the TV programs about them, that they do, which is why so many will support them.

They seem to have given you that impression but not me :).  If you look at their web site they do outline their remit they also state how many staff they have so it takes very little logic to work out that an emergency ambulance service covering the country at all times is not possible.

>As does a cat up a tree when the owners and others are there, or a horse stuck in a ditch when the owners and others are there, but the RSPCA still attend, and if the owner is not present, or cannot be contacted, they will provide vet help............help, advice, support. This is the service the OP expected, as anyone would expect.

Again these are difficult rescues for the public to conduct themselves so it does not follow to my mind that we need expect them to put the same resources to something like an RTA.

>As the RSPCA are so very short of numbers I would still love to know how they intend to police the new bill.
>It takes time to do paperwork, inspections, and time out for lengthy court cases.

Exactly :) I expect it will be difficult for them to conduct it in the way we would hope.  I only hope this sort of adverse publicity does not reduce donations as this is the sort of area that no other agency performs as well, in fact not at all!.  If the RSPCA fails to police it I cannot see Government stepping in and using public funds not least because the public would not vote for higher taxes to cover this sort of thing.

Our local RSPCA has a local vet that is on call to them. Looking at the TV programs, it would appear that is the case also, but as with all things media, including advertising, appearances can be deceptive.

Having their remit on the web, to which not everyone has access, is not the same as the highly emotional advertising they do, and the heartjerking TV programs with tearful people so grateful for their help, or showing the RSPCA running around everywhere.

The RSPCA is pushing hard for this bill, and giving it their support. Lets hope they can follow through in cases where it is needed. They want more powers, lets hope if they get them they will have the manpower to do the job correctly, coupled with the training needed to cope with it. If they can't cope now (where DOES all the money go?) how they will cope after April I have no idea. No, people won't want to be taxed any more than they already are, thats for sure! We didn't vote for the taxes we have, so the addition of yet another to justify one more PR exercise by the Government and to fall in line in the usual 'pc' way from outside directives, wouldn't be acceptable.

Anyway, my views are aired, and I'm standing by what I'v said with no need to comment furthur, except to say the OP did a wonderful thing, at least this poor dog had some love and care in its last minutes, and someone to try and get help.

OP did a wonderful thing, at least this poor dog had some love and care in its last minutes, and someone to try and get help

My sentiments exactly!

Sad and disgusting that the rspca and vet were not quite so caring :( 

Agreed not everyone has access to the net but many do and I can honestly say I have never seen them portrayed as having rapid response ambulance capabilities on any of the programmes I have seen, far from it.  They do not even claim to be an emergency service by name but rather a society for the prevention of cruelty. If there has been a misconception about this I am not at all sure the RSPCA are to blame in creating it.

>except to say the OP did a wonderful thing, at least this poor dog had some love and care in its last minutes, and someone to try and get help.

I think we are all in agreement there :)

If their job is to try to prevent cruelty then perhaps they should get off their high horse when it comes to dictating that only an RSPCA officer or a vet is qualified to humanely destroy an animal, and they should certainly not be trying to prosecute a police officer for putting a half dead cat out of its misery!

And I agree that OP did something quite touching in today's society of looking the other way - i'd like to think any of us would do the same thing!  I would just hope that when the RSPCA won't attend themselves they do not come over all judgemental about what people do when they are left with no choice but to manage themselves!!

I am not sure that widening the scope of who and how an animal can be destroyed would be particularly beneficial to animal welfare.
It's interesting that the animal rights brigade got very irate when exactly the same thing was done to a fox in the throws of death at a shoot recently don't you think.

Appalled at the vet's attitude. Whilst in my local vet someone bought in a (still living) hedgehog that they'd found in the road & it was infested with maggots. My vets were lovely & took the poor thing straight away. I also had to ring them as a cat was on the side of the road near me , dead, & again they took it in. They said they never turn away any cases like this, so shame on that vet.