some may know that i got a horse for christmas, well my boss has his half brother, they have had Gun since he was a baby, however for the last couple of years Gun has been looked after and schooled by someone else, we are now doing everything ourselves, during the course of guns schooling if he has done something wrong he has been severely reprimanded, it wasnt apparant at the time as he was in livery, as a result gun misbehaves in order to get attention negative attention was all he got, everything has been going well until recently gun discovered that whilst being taken to the field that rearing gave him the upper hand, and last week he reared higher than before, lost his balance and landed on my bosses wife, he got her shoulder, head and leg, he never meant to hurt as when he landed he froze in panic, i couldnt get to help as i had hold of smoke, she got up and continued to walk gun into the field, she hasnt much experience with horses and has now lost all confidence with gun and the rest of the horses, she has been told by some that he needs to be beaten to bring him back in line, obviously we dont want to beat him, 1, because it isnt right and 2, because its what he wants. Gun isnt nasty just very bolshy and naughty. so do any of ou have any pointers for rebuilding confidence, to stop gun from rearing whilst being lead to the field, any other pointers gratefully received too

thanks in advance

tanya

Well, its a hard one to give advice on - on a public forum. Firstly, I would offer the following pointers:

1. personal safety. Only lead him on a long line (so space can be created if he goes up), and wear gloves, boots, and a HAT when leading him
2. Cut out all hard feed or mix - whats he on at the moment?
3. What turnout is he getting? He needs as much as possible to help him relax
4. Is he rearing under saddle?
5. Why did he rear - was he trying to get to his friends in the field?

Be careful no-one suggests any daft anti rearing advice - like hitting him on the head. I honestly would suggest you get some help with him from a Monty Robers Recommended Associate. Whereabouts are you? You could also try www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk

What do you think of the 'be nice halter' Carla? Just curious as a friend has just ordered one, not sure I like the look of it but other people swear by them. Would it help or make matters worse in this case do you think? Is that one of the "daft anti rearing" devices you were talkign about...apologies if it is :D

ohhh see below!

Hi

I personally wouldn't use anything that involves overt pressure on a rearer. Some of them can resist further and panic, and topple backwards. I would be looking for ther reason the horse is rearing first - then try to treat the cause.

Anti rearing devices that are daft (IMO) are chifneys (which are very severe anti rearing bits that sort of loop through the mouth. They are often used to lead strong horses but are so severe, and if used at the wrong time by the wrong person can easily make the horse react in a very bad way, or even break its jaw), using eggs/hot water bottles to break over the horses head when they rear to give the the impression that they have hit their heads or whacking the horse under the belly when it goes up (dangerous to the person doing it!).

I have no problem with pressure halters or be nice halters, but rearers are dangerous and need extra care.

thanks for the replies

right first up, gloves etc are worn as a matter of course as path to field very muddy so any extra grip is needed

he is on d+h safe and sound, and has just had a probitic supplement added as he keeps getting bouts of colic, vet thinks may be stress related as the last bout was the day of the incident

he goes out all day (10- 4.30) everyday, unless weather is really bad, he is currently out in the field 24/7 as we have some mild weather

ive only seen him rear once whilst being ridden he spooked at a wheelie bin, he never got his ridder off though

we think he may have started rearing because to get to his wet field he has to walk past my nice dry green garden, and he does everything he can to get there.

also he was cut late, he will be 7 this year he was cut when he was 3

we want to avoid hitting him as we think that is what he is aiming for as negative is all he knows, before we moved we had a whisperer come out, he said he is a very intelligent horse and this is where most of his problems come in, we are hoping to build a manage some time this year and will call the whisperer out again to help.

waiting for your views on the be nice halter and will look on the site

thank you again

tanya

AM off to ride my icelandic - will reply in a bit - but I suspect it will be quite easy to sort this :)

AM off to ride my icelandic  Oh I'm so jealous, I haven't been to the Icelandics yet this year - does yours tolt?

How much groundwork is done with him? Does he know how to back up? Does he respect your space or does he barge into you? Does he rush through gates or through the stable door at you? Does he lead nicely or does he pull you? Is he led in a headcollar? Has he had his teeth and back checked recently? Is he good to catch? Does he lead back in nicely from the field - does he pull on the way out?

How big is he, what breed and how old?

right,
currently he isnt doing much work but i have ridden him and he is very stubborn and is hardwork to ride, (my boss is aware that half of guns problems are his own fault, cut late, schooled/back late),

backing up, he is learning to do it takes a few times of telling to do so but will now back up on the second time he is told 9 times out of 10, as for backing up under the saddle im not sure

if Gun is in a bolshy mood he will push you, whilst being led or while being rugged/groomed

gates and doors he will wait and is learning to stand and wait while his leader walks through first

normally gun will walk nicely whilst being led other than when he is in a mood or just recently he has started to barge when on the way out

he is led in a headcollar, we have just purchased headcollar clips to attach his bit to the collar, it hasnt been used yet though

teeth im not sure, vet was out at the weekend as gun went down with collic, he found he is a little sensitive on his right side but didnt check his back

catching he is as good as gold, he comes to the gate, will wait whilst him and smoke are caught and clipped up,

he was walking nicely in from the field but after last weeks accident he is being bolshy on the way into his stable, this is partly down to a lack of confidence after he trampled bosses wife, she knows this but obviously the harder you tey not to be nervous the more nervous you get and gun knows this
on the way out to the field he was walking fine, but as the ground has got muddier and muddier he has began to play up more and more, it started off with refusing to walk, then barging into the fence, then spinning quickly and now rearing, last week when he went up and landed on leader he made no attempt to go to the field just stood and waited to be caught then walked like a lamb to the field
im am unable to lead gun as he constantly tries to bite me and when i did take him after he began to play up he walked along kicking me with his front legs.
he never plays up in the same place sometimes it is when he comes off the yard other times it will be 10 ft from the field gate

Gun is 16.2hh a trakenher and will be 7 this year.

when we have the school built we will be contacting the whisperer we used before,

Gun is also stronger on his hind than his front so rears rather than bucks,

Gun was backed without any schooling at 4 (a 'friend' did it, at the time i did say it probably wasnt the best thing to do) he has been out on loan to someone, they had a teacher from the animal college teach them/help to school however they didnt like trakenhers and gun had every device possible put on him to stop him doing this and that, when the person who had him decided they no longer wanted him he was put in livery and did work everyday, it was only when we moved and his carer came with him that we realised just how much negative treatment he was getting we have been rewarding him for good behaviour but since he was 4 he has learnt that bad behaviour not only gets him his own way but he gets attention.

he is a fidgit and dislikes standing still for long periods of time, he cannot stand still to have his tack put on, he will stand for the farrier/vet but when in a bad mood will do everything he can to get rid of the farrier, kicking and biting.
he will bite (titbits have caused this) but will not lunge at anyone but me,

when the vet came out last week he has tested liver kidney function blood count etc as he was worried he might have a stomach ulcer, these all came back clear. we are lucky enough that even though we have moved into a different county the vet we had in essex does cover work for a practice in newmarket so will come out to see the horses, he has said they are a lot less stressed, they are happy and they are being horses

we have halters from the whisperer these im not sure how to put on, as he was showing guns carer as she was the one doing the work with him, we have a be nice halter, (i didnt know i was this until this morning when i did a search on the be nice halter) it hasnt been used, when i got the headcollar straps i was told to use a chifney bit i said no when bosses wife asked what it was and why she doesnt like the idea of and wont use

and to make it clear boss bought gun when he was a baby, he admits guns problems are down to him and has said he shouldnt have got him, gun is just as bitey with boss as he is with me, boss wanted to sell gun, wife said no he aint going so he said that he can stay as long as she does something with him, she hasnt much experience with horses but is willing to learn her confidence has been totally shattered by gun but she is still willing to learn and find out why he is doing it, he isnt nasty just naughty, normally gun is as good as gold with bosses wife and will do anything she asks him but he has found he can push her around.

hopefully thats a bit more info to help

thanks again

tanya

i used a "be nice" halter on my mare,to help her load & when she was being Shod. May be worth a try when needing abit of extra control. Hallie was never distressed by it,i thought it was excellent

& too add after a while i didnt need it in those situations as she learnt that she could be relaxed at those times & all was well.
It was more of a "schooling" aid i thought than a "control" device. although i did use it correctly & was very sure to keep it loose when she was behaving & of course never tie up in one or turn out in one

Would you consider getting in touch with Sarah Fisher? she helps horses with TTouch and has helped some very difficult ones. She keeps at least 7 at her home some of whom were rescues with problems.

http://www.ttouchtteam.co.uk/

Do have a read through some of the articles etc, they are very interesting :)

Lindsay
x

If he was mine, I would be tempted to put him on a lunge line and when he does go up, let the lunge loose and step beck and do nothing - this way he is not getting any attention at all. If he lunges forward send him away on the lunge. You need to reinfore to him that his behaviour is doing no good. Sounds like he is rearing out of frustration to me. I have a boy who rears in the stable when he wants out. I just ignore him and he gets fed up in the end.

Just wanted to say dont put any pressure on him - if you do send him away on the lunge do it very quitely and calmly.
You could also try distacting him from the behavoiur - take a bucket of food to the field so the rearing dous not become a habit.

Thought also - don't whatever you do lunge him in the be-nice halter if you do decide to buy one.

Good luck.

Id do the same as aimibobs - i would be wary of using the 'be nice' as in my opinion they are NOT nice and a great many horses do NOT realise the way to get the unpleasant pressure off their polls and noses is to move forwards themselves, instead they fight it and if hes learned to go up as an evasion, he will more than likely do that again.

He needs to learn from now on that rearing NEVER EVER works, the way to do that is to stop it being so dangerous for the handler, so a loooooooooooooong lead rope, and be prepared to step well away from him if he threatens to go up.

Id be tempted if i had the space to insist he circles when he threatens to go up, so he learns threatening to go up = more work, walking nicely = get to field sooner.

Em

I would agree with Em :)

I would also do the following:

1. Cut out all hard feed. Feed only a good balancer like Top Spec and a Probiotic. Yeasacc or Equine Gold Biotel are very good for the gut. Hay and not haylege. Also watch the grass he is getting - it will start coming through thick and fast and the sugars can make them loopy
2. Consider a magnesium supplement - they can have a calming effect if the grazing is lacking in it.
3. Get back checked by a Chiropractor. Vets don't know enough about backs. With the rearing he could have put something out that may make riding him difficult - which may encourage more rearing.
4. Get his teeth done by an EDT
5. Let him chill and be a horse. So, nice quiet handling, but firm. No riding for a while - do some groundwork. Kelly Marks books give some useful exercises in teaching to lead nicely, and to respect personal space. I have dealt with horses that have been cut late and confrontational methods don't work. Quiet respect is what is required.
6. Definitely lead in a lunge line. If he goes up, let him. If he threatens then yes, back him up, circle him, get his mind off and make him work.
7. Backing up is a very good exercise in the saddle and out. Old Monty Roberts reckons that if a horse won't back up out of your space he has no respect for you. Get him backing up accross the yard. All of mine back up well - including my 18 month old welshie :D

I'll have a think and post more if I can think of anything

Tanya,

I know quite a few people who have lost confidence with problem horses and if you are willing to put time, effort and unfortunatly expense ( coz the courses videos and equipment mounts up) then the Parelli way has been very good indeed.

See this link:
http://www.parelli.com/

I've tried bits of it with my boy and he backs up for me from a wiggle of my finger - even if I stand beside him so it does work as he was bargy and bolshy - I just never had the time to carry on. He is 11 now and settled alot.

Let us know how you go on.

on the way out to the field he was walking fine, but as the ground has got muddier and muddier he has began to play up more and more, it started off with refusing to walk, then barging into the fence, then spinning quickly and now rearing, last week when he went up and landed on leader he made no attempt to go to the field just stood and waited to be caught then walked like a lamb to the field
Does anyone else agree he is panicking because of boggy ground and rushing?  He sounds reluctant to walk in the very muddy ground and when you are insisting he is loosing it and rushing into the fence.(bit like a nervous horse rushing his fences). Perhaps when you are stopping him rushing, this is when he realy looses it and is rearing. If this is the case is there another way to the field that is less muddy or can you put some hardcore/chippings down to firm things up a little. Take the cause of rearing away.

im am unable to lead gun as he constantly tries to bite me and when i did take him after he began to play up he walked along kicking me with his front legs.
he never plays up in the same place sometimes it is when he comes off the yard other times it will be 10 ft from the field gate
Try this trick (not near the mud where he rears though:
Get two leadropes and clip them to the headcollar ring as you normally would. Use one  leadrope as normal to lead with and pass the other one over the opposite side of his neck and when he tries biting or getting to close pull on the one over his neck and say "NO"- this will pull his head to the oposite side to you - stops him biting, barging and clipping you. Hope I explained it OK. Do lots of groundwork and lots and lots od "GOOD BOY" when he does what you are asking and sharp "NO'S" when he is naughty.

thank you all for your replies, just a few questions as regards to feeding.

Top Spec - what one? how many feeds?
he is currently fed dodson and horrell safe and sound twice a day, with dengie probiotic supplement, and garlic and cod liver oil

we are going to book a chiropractor next week, and begin with confidence building, the muck heap is being moved onto the pathway to the field to soak all the mud up.

My bosses wife is still nervous but feels better after reading all your comments, and feels hopeful that she will be able to handle gun better

thank you again

tanya

Has anyone checked to see if he was casterated correctly? I used to look after a rig, and he showed many of these symptoms, especially rearing, and was also cut later on in life, and had little school work till he was 7. He was a trial till his dying day, but a lovely horse if you knew what you were doing and could win him round. Fantastic hunter. Buck for England tho, just for fun...

Hi

Top Spec feed balancer. Ring them up for their advice - they are fantastic. You could also give him their Calmer, it works really well.

I personally don't feed either garlic or cod liver oil - as they are not natural to the horses diet.

Chiro is a good idea. I would avoid McTimoney though. Get them to check his poll - he may be rearing through pain there.

I am sure she will be fine :D He isn't being naughty, he is just using avoidance techniques. He sounds like he's had a rough time in the past so he needs to trust again and learn that he can be calm and life can be pleasant.

Keep us posted :D

don't understand your comment about 'avoid mctimoney'. I use one that does people and animals (great as i can book double appointment and get me and zan done on same visit) he has done horses and found a problem the vet specialists-on refferal- had not been able to diagnose.
Chris

I prefer to use a Chiropractor - than a McTimoney specialist. You can check if a Chirporactor is registered here: http://www.chiropractic-uk.co.uk/default.aspx?m=1&mi=1

I would only use a registered Chiro. You need to let your vet know too first OP. I'm afraid I wouldn't let a McTimoney person near my horses :)

I would agree with Carla and choose a registered Chiro from the list or Registered Osteopath.  Stuart McGregor can supply details of Aminal Osteopaths.  Phone: 01235 768033

OK get your point, I am lucky in that the guy I go to is a qualified vet and homeopath as well as the chiro. I get funny looks when I say - my back has gone and I am going to the vet!!!-.
Chris

;) :)

Gun has now been put on to top spec lesiure time, and along with the magnesium and calmer is begining to calm down, he is listening more but we have hit a snag, when the temperature dropped on tuesday, the 'boys' were out in the field, on bringing them in i noticed they were a little lame, their feet were hot, red and cracked they have a little bit of frostbite, so they are on box rest. I was in essex yesturday at the vets and when talking to one of the nurses (who has horses) she said it sounds as if they have a touch of mud fever, so have cooled their feet by standing in the puddles, the temperature dropped freezing their feet causing the frostbite, so come next week the gun that was calming down will be as high as a kite.
on another note, whilst looking for a mobile beauty therapist we have come across a lady who has worked with andalusians and has done a course in horse pyschology, amoungst others, and on hearing that we have an andalusian and that we have been having problems with gun has offered her help, so with all your help and advice, and then this lady echoing everything you have all said and offering her help confidence is begining to be restored,
ill keep you posted on his progress but thank you once again

tanya

Hiya

When you say their feet were hot, red and cracked - do you mean the heels? I can recommend a really good treatment for Mud Fever.
I am so pleased you've got him on Top Spec - he will do really well on it.
Mine have been a little footy on the hard ground here with the frosts - but tough, they stay out and have to live with it :D

If he's in and he hates it - try hanging veggies from his stable to keep him occupied (like swedes) - you probably already know this but I thought I'd mention it :) I'd avoid any commercial things like Likits as they tend to be quite high in sugars which could make him a bit mad - but decadron Horse Ball's are good with treats in too for horses on box rest :D

the soles of their feet were red and cracked, and smoke who is normally very good with his feet wouldnt let me touch them, there is a marked improvement in their feet today, and gun was being such a good boy that as a treat i gave him an apple with his breakfast, big mistake he was an absolute sod when it came to skipping out etc this evening, he didnt want to do anything he was told and dragged me round the yard, pulled his rug off whilst i was putting it on (this is guns cheeky side so nothing unusual there), and then refused to go back in his stable, ok it is more than likely he is getting bored but he has been as good as gold and the apples seem too much of a coincidence so no more apples for gun. on another note he is really enjoying the top spec, and even though he is having less than normal it takes he longer to eat as he cant pick the food up as quick as he would like

as for living out i think gun would prefer it but with thick mud and hard frosts, and with the pair of them standing in the muddiest part of the field at night (close to the house, and civilisation and not that far to walk for food :rolleyes:) it isnt ideal for their feet/legs

what is the treatment for mud fever? i can see them getting regularly they have gone from really sandy soil to a clay soil that is thick mud

thank you

tanya

Hiya

If its on the soles it sounds more like weakend soles or thrush from the mud? They should harden up with him being in. The wet is weakening the soles on one of my older horses at the moment - its a real pain!

If they get cracks and scabs fom mud fever on the heels then you can try Aromaheel from www.aromesse.co.uk - its brill stuff. You wash off the leg, dry it (no picking scabs with this treatment) slap on the aromaheel and you can then turn back out. Works in mild cases before it spreads badly :)

Got any piccies of Gun? I feel like I know him already!

Try hanging veggies in his stable - theres no sugar in them and they'll occupy his mind trying to catch them and bite em!

pics are on their way :) ive included pics of the other 3 as well

tanya