A good point.  We found out in most unfortunate circumstances that our farm animals are fed food that they wouldn't find naturally.  That's why we had BSC disease in our beef. IMO there's no perfect way of feeding.  We do what we think is best and that means there is no right or wrong

Apart from feeding our dog raw food, there is nothing we prepare for him other than the bones from the chicken wings, that we ourselves would not eat.  We purchase all our food and our dog's food from the same place.  When we buy meat, I insist to our butcher that it is for us, I have a sneaky suspicion that he would give us older meat if he thought it was for the dog - indeed he has in the past but after telling him about it he is reluctant to do it again - I think!

The BSC which was in our food chain contaminated food for human consumption as well as animal feed.  As you say, we can't always guarantee what we are eating is safe - and as I said earlier 'we do what we think/believe is best' :)

I feel absolutely no need to prepare my own food for my dogs and I don't know why anyone should feel they need to if they don't want to.

Absolutely,  I want to and believe it is better for my dog and I don't mind invested my time in preparing his food :) I know it must be time consuming for people with a few dogs.  I imagine it's like cooking for a party rather than the family - I could see this becoming tedious!

All needs have to be met but getting better met as over and above needs is just wasted, indeed in some instances such as protein, certain vitamins etc it can be detrimental

Agree again, but if the needs are not met, this can also be detrimental - I agree it is better to use pet food than to feed a raw diet incorrectly, that said, it's quite easy to get it right :D :D :D

>but if the needs are not met, this can also be detrimental

Of course.  Thankfully, in the UK we have trading laws that ensure all pet food companies must achieve full purpose.

We had a big dog food scandal in Sweden in 1982 or 1983, can't remember exactly now. It was to do with what meat was used. Long story but it was found out even dead dogs and elephants had been used in Swedish dog food. Anyway at the time it was said that if you buy British dog food, you will be guaranteed to get the very best quality because Britain has much stronger regulations than all the other countries that manufacture dog food. Long time ago yes, but just shows what a reputation this country had already THEN for checks on its dog food manufacturers.

The question I've asked all along, Why do vets vaccinate unhealthy dogs?
And, some healthy dogs do have reactions to vaccinations!

Why would the vet know what's in the dog's LINE? It needn't be anything visible at all.
A dog can LOOK healthy but its GENES may not be, hence it cannot cope with vaccination.

There has been talk of not vaccinating Cavaliers with MVD as they are not healthy dogs. I've had my Rufus vaccinated every year all his life and he has now had MVD for 5 years. He will be 12 next month so is older than the average life span for a Cavalier, and according to the vet just before Christmas, it should not be POSSIBLE for a dog with a heart as bad as his to be alive, yet he is very much alive and very happy and people say he looks like 3. :) We had him vaccinated again on that day.

My dog didn't look healthy goldmali, he'd undergone a year of operations and problems - the vet KNEW he wasn't healthy.  I didn't question the vet :( I thought he was the expert :(

What you say about poor Spangler's line goes a long way to explaining his untimely death. Not his food, not his vaccinations, but his genetic background, which he'd have had even if he'd been fed differently.

Rather than concentrate on what breeders feed you might be better asking the age of the pup's ancestors; if grandparents and great grandparents are/were still active and healthy in their teens, whatever they were fed, you stand a chance of getting a longer-lived pet.

IMO if you want to feed raw then good, you've made a choice based on information and your own opinions and that is to be respected, however .....

>It's not an all out disagreement or argument, I'm just stating the difference I've noticed  between raw fed and pet food fed dogs!

It's unfair to compare different health outcomes of your own dogs and attribute those outcomes to their food.  To be able to compare dogs health and link it to food you have to do very very big controlled experiments involving litters, not individual dogs.  If you had identical twins as puppies, fed one raw and one commercial food and found significant differences in their health you might have a point but not comparing dogs from different litters, even if they are the same breed.

As I said Cheryl, it is what I personally have noticed and the route which I prefer to follow - it's not unfair for me to make that choice or compare.  I'm not only comparing the two dogs in question, but various dogs that I see at shows, ringcraft and in general.  The raw fed (in my opinion) stand out.

You are right that to scientifically test the theory then I'd have to carrry out more research and experiments as the one you outlined with littermates.  I was stating my opinion and preference!

I've been fortunate enough to have many very long lived dogs for their breeds, including an Irish Wolfhound that lived in good health to be 15. They have all been fed a commercial diet and have all been vaccinated regularly. I breed/buy with a very sharp eye on genetic health and longevity in the pedigree and my dogs are exercised hard and never allowed to become fat. Those factors in my opinion give the best chance of a long lived, healthy dog.

I take the complete opposite view from you and will not sell a puppy to anyone who does not agree to vaccinate at least until the first booster and I will not sell to anyone who intends to feed BARF or its variants before the pup is fully physically mature. That is because I don't believe that even with the best will in the world they will be able to feed a completely balanced diet to a rapidly growing giant breed pup.

In the UK they can only use meat fit for human consumption, if you know differently I suggest you report them to the trading standards, although fit for consumption should not be confused with food not desired for consumption, humans are very picky :) 
The reason the food is processed and vitamins added is to ensure the nutrition is complete and remains so for the period of time that people require it stored.  This is just what people want and need and there is absolutely no reason for that to be detrimental to the dogs health, far from it, the nutrition and vitamin quantity and quality is assured.  Preservatives are only used in tiny quantities well within the permitted levels which are in themselves are well below the limits show to be harmless in studies conducted over many years.  Why shouldn't flavours be added that the dogs will enjoy and although I agree with you about the unecessary colours :) these are all within harmless limits also.
You may not personally think modern dogs do not live as long or are as healthy but my personal experience is the opposite when I was a young thing a ten year old dog waswasn't particularly common but more importantly than our own very limited experiences, independent studies show this to be the case. 
As I said above, if there is an increase in skin and digestive problems, and I have no personal experience that that is the case, there are other factors that can be just as responsible.  The incidence of cancers always increase in old age so there are bound to be more cases as dogs longevity improves :) 

>I personally prefer to know where my dogs food comes from & also what they're fed

Unless you are feeding meat and vegetables that you have reared or grown yourself can you really say that?

>It will always be each to their own but for me & mine, raw or as natural as possible

As you say and good for you :) for me it is a professionally devised, prepared and preserved one I would never feed my dogs "rubbish" either :) 

In the UK they can only use meat fit for human consumption  Are you certain this is true with regard to meat for the pet trade Isabel?  Only I contacted one pet food wholesaler to ask them specifically if their meat was fit for human consumption and having sort of skirted round the issue by saying their manufacturing plant was to human consumption standards, they finally admitted the meat itself was not fit for human consumption.

Yes, I am.  I'm sure JG has posted the EC reg that covers it in the past. 

Yes, in the UK the meat for the pet food trade has to come from animals which were 'fit for human consumption' after slaughter. I haven't time to find the link to the law, but I'm sure Google will help you.

The same regulations that will cover the fresh meat for pets, of course.

Absolutely. The pet food trade isn't only the kibblers, it's all of them.

Here you go.

It may be worth buying one of Ian Billinghurst's books which will explain it all to you complete with recipes!  Either 'grow your pups with bones' or 'give your dog a bone'!  There are others but these are the ones I have and find them really useful after reading them through I just use for reference now!
Good luck I know your doggies will love it!
Maria :)

Thanks guys, I have 2 Ian Billinghurst books on order and just wanted some advice from people who have made the switch already. The vets have told me to look at the diets of both my dogs because between them we have had dodgy belly for 4 weeks now. Merlin has dodgy belly quite often. When he was a pup we thought he had a food intolerance and tried all sorts of different foods on him, all of which made him fluff a lot or gave him a runny bum. We went back to the original food which seems to be the best but we still have regular problems. So I figured it may be worth trying something else, as did the vets. I am not at all slating commercial foods, just trying an alternative to help my hounds. Thanks xx

You could also try Tom Lonsdale's books check out www.rawmeatybones.com
  A bit different than Billinghurst's idea but worth a look.

Whilst googling the human grade meat thing i came across this article which touches on just about everything.It mentions the 4D's and roadkill/euthanised pets used in pet foods in the US,it also mentions UK regs,it's about cat food(messybeast),but also covers dog food.I just found it a very interesting read,except for right at the end when she disses raw feeding.

So it's not INTERESTING to read about any opposing view to your own? Why?

Can't open the link, Ktee.  I don't for a minute believe all the roadkill propaganda, makes no sense whatsoever when the meat industry produces more than enough unwanted byproducts that would otherwise cost to be disposed of, but as most of us are in the UK we don't really have to be too concerned about these stories.

Try this http://www.messybeast.com/cat-food-industry.htm

Goldmali i wrote that last bit so people will not think that i agree with her statement,a sort of disclaimer of sorts.And i find it more annoying then interesting when people spread the same old propaganda about raw.....

>I don't for a minute believe all the roadkill propaganda,

Which is why i mentioned it and posted the article,thought it may be of interest to beleivers and non alike :)

>but as most of us are in the UK we don't really have to be too concerned about these stories.

No,you're right.we dont have to be concerned,but i have always found it intriguing how other countries do things :)

Still can't open it :)

>i find it more annoying then interesting when people spread the same old propaganda about raw.....

:D I know the feeling!

>I know the feeling!

:D Yes but some things are so much more believable than others and just make sense :D

For example one site will spread that dogs should eat mostly cereals,another will say they should be fed mostly meat.The latter makes sense and is more believable than the former.

I would dismiss both as far too narrow minded :)

No doesn't work for me either.

I know the website though, quite fond of controversial issues.

I did it!!! I changed them both over in one go after reading up on it and getting loads of advice. I expected bad tummys, especially from Merlin who has one about once every 6 weeks or so. But nothing, nice hard poopys, a bit of slime around them on days one & two but nice and hard. They love it and people have been commenting on their coat condition. Fingers crossed this is what was needed,

Well done

Poo patrol is definately more of a pleasure now since we changed over :D :D

Lucy
xx

thats only if you get to it before it is recycled, yuck!

You will get a mucus covering some poos when you first change it is normal

Thanks curly, it looked like snot to me, but mucus is much nicer word for it. I was worried the first time i saw it!