I have got over most of my dogs little foibles with other dogs, slight fear barking issues etc and things are going very well . Theres one thing that can still set him of(barking and pulling) and thats the sight of other dogs playing, i assume he wants to join in but i dont let him with strange dogs as he can play a bit rough so theres a bit of frustration there as well.  I guess he wont want to as he gets older,hes nearly 4, any ideas?

How many dogs does he get to play with regularly?

I was at this stage with my dog a little while back - until a couple of really nice people with good steady calm dogs suggested I let him off the lead and all went well .  speak to some of the people you see regularly and start with slower calmer dogs and build up gradually -

Good Luck

Maxine

>i assume he wants to join in but i dont let him with strange dogs as he can play a bit rough so theres a bit of frustration there as well.  I guess he wont want to as he gets older,hes nearly 4, any ideas?

Dogs desire to play never goes away,and the more you keep him from playing the more frustrated he'll get.

I'm not sure what type of idea's you're after?? i would just let him play :) Let the other owners know your dog can play a little rough and go for it,i'm sure the others will sort him out if he gets too rough.

I've got little dogs but i dont prevent them playing with bigger dogs,although it sometimes makes me extremely nervous i dont have the heart to stop other dogs joining in.If my dogs are off lead,then it's only fair that others,big or small,can aswell.I have NEVER expected another dog owner to put their dogs on lead just because theirs are bigger or more boisterous than mine,they have every right to enjoy their freedom as my dogs have :) And besides i can not stand to see dogs on lead all of the time :( I'm always encouraging nervous owners to let their dogs off to play and explore!!

>And besides i can not stand to see dogs on lead all of the time  I'm always encouraging nervous owners to let their dogs off to play and explore!!<

Provided, of course, their dogs' have 100% recall :)

No such animal, even the best trained can have that off moment.  My own breed are not known for their instant recall, so I ensure thaey have very good social manners.

What I was trying, hopelessly, to say was, people shouldn't be encouraged to let their dogs off lead just because someone thinks they should all be allowed to run free. I don't care whether people think its 'cruel' to keep dogs on leads - (I for one never allow mine off a long line (with harness). Maybe in an enclosed field with padlocked gates, 6ft high fencing, I might reconsider. But in a field or park with other dogs loose running around? Never.)  Of course people  can trust their dogs' to recall, but even the 90% best recall won't stop a dog if it see's something far more interesting than his/her owners'.
And having just re read what I've said I see I am still trying hopelessly to say what I'm thinking :rolleyes:
Yes, having good social manners is something people lack, with their dogs too ;) , but what I meant was encouraging people, nervous owners, to let their dogs off should also be encouraged to have that recall and instill good manners before letting dogs off.
Now do you see what I mean? :P

:D Yes.
I do think it's nice for dogs to run freely and interact with their species whenever they can reasonably do so but I don't think it is cruel if that is not possible for whatever reason and enough exercise and stimulation can be provided by some other means.

Thank you Isabel :D

I love watching dogs run freely, but have seen too many go awfully wrong too :(
recall and socialisation is paramount, imo, :)

Well, I'd probably put those two the other way round that's all :) 

No dog can ever be guaranteed to have 100% recall. ;)

>i would just let him play  Let the other owners know your dog can play a little rough and go for it,i'm sure the others will sort him out if he gets too rough.<

Others may disagree but I think it's possible to go too far in the direction of "anything goes".   You could end up with a dog that thinks it's ok to play rough with weaker dogs.  I don't think play should be allowed to continue no matter what the weaker (and that's not the same as smaller - ask my terrier!) dogs are being subjected to and I think the OP feels the same.  And no, I don't expect anyone else to put their dogs on the lead but I will call mine away from boisterous dogs that are annoying them.  (And it's funny how obedient they get under those circumstances!)

Congratulations on what you have achieved so far, Morgan.  His over the top reaction to playing dogs may be frustration or it could be lingering apprehension.

If it is frustration - well, we can't always have what we want, can we?  He'll need to learn self-control in these circumstances and many others.

Your choice: do you want to reward him for barking and pulling by letting him off to play, in which case the behaviour will continue or do you want to make it unrewarding for him?

I had an incident this weekend actually where two large boisterous dogs were playing with my litle dog.  He can more than hold his own usually but I could see that with two he was getting nervous so walked away and called him - he came straight away - followed by two bounding GSD's that in their excitement took my legs from underneath me and I ended up on my backside.   Funny all three dogs stood stock still silent as anything once that happened!

My advice and I'm not an expert is to take him away where your instinct tells you it could go wrong and encourage when you get an owner that says no problem go ahead.

The first dogs that I had success with were a greyhound, a staffiexgreat dane and a jack russell terrier.  The first two took no notice of the noise and speed so he calmed down and the jack russell firmly told him to behave when he was too full on.  He has soon learned and now approaches some full on and some silently so hopefully yours may learn to adapt his greetings....

and by the way my dog was four when I got him last July and has changed his ways....

Good Luck

Maxine

I used to let Zak have a really good play with another GSD before obedience training. I found although he loved it (even though they were both very vocal & rough) it was the wrong thing to do. There was no way that I could get him to look at me during training, he only had eyes for his doggy friend. He used to watch him all of the time instead of me. I do feel it's only right to let dogs play, but I know one of the trainers took a completely different approach. He reckoned that your dogs best, most fun mate should be you the owner! He didn't agree at all with letting dogs play with one another. He said it does make it difficult with some dogs/owners to get that special bond. I suppose for some dogs it does make sense. I find that Zak almost goes into crouch mode when he sees another dog, he can't take his eyes of them. They don't have to be playing, just walking along is enough. I can let him off though immediately he has passed a dog on a walk & he will never go back towards it. He runs along in the direction it has come sniffing the ground. This only happens on walks at home now, when I go training he doesn't do it & when I go to agility shows he is completely different. He focuses on me & the rings where other dogs are competing, but doesn't really bother at all with the dogs that are walking around. I always take tasty treats to training & shows, but it doesn't matter what I try to tempt him with at home he doesn't want to know, it's very hard to get his attention when he is that focused on something.

Jean Donaldson (Culture clash) calls that 'competing motivation'.  I just re-read it last night.  I tried for more than a year, to find something which would take my dogs interest away from an approaching dog, but I can't find it.   Jean Donaldson says basically, there is nothing, but the 'solution' is to convey to the dog, if you do that, I allow you to do that.  I mean for example, if you do a sit ,come, wait whatever first, I will tell you the magic words 'go on and see the other dog'.    It's all very nice, but that means I can't have my dog off lead, because there could always be a dog coming round a corner.  Dogs learn very quick, that the best/quickest way to greet/play with the oncoming dog is just to run and not to listen to a come first, which could end the fun altogether (come can mean back to being on the lead).

That's what's known as the Premack principle - or 'life rewards'.  Using an activity the dog loves - such as play or sniffing that tree over there - to reward him for doing what you ask.  It can be very useful in the right circumstances, but as you've noticed there are pitfalls!