Hi

Does anybody know of a dvd or anything for training your dog to dance.  My daughter fancies doing this sort of thing as an at home fun thing to do when they cant go in the garden to play...

thanks for your help

Maxine

Mary Ray's Beginner's DVD

& theres me thinking people didnt like animals doing circus trick any more

Time was, I would have shared that view Sam :) but now I think the average pet dog is so woefully under exercised that I think anything that motivates people to do more physical activity with them has to be a good thing and after all it's not for the dogs to feel embarrased by the silly costumes etc ;)

Well I'm sure this is going to be nothing like circus tricks - this is a 13 year old girl and a small dog having a bit of fun in the front room...  surely it cant be any different to chasing around, jumping for toys or on an agility course....can it??

I promise with all my heart I wont let her use fancy costumes, hoops of fire, trapeze swings or roller skates..........   in fact my dog will probably just look at her bounding around as if she is bonkers and then take a seat to watch....

Maxine

PS thanks Moonmaiden for the info.....

  

its great,more like Training than circus tricks. good luck!

There is a book 'Dancing with dogs' a step by step guide to freestyle by Richard Curtis.  Haven't really used it much - was looking for new things to teach to challenge my dog. 

I really dislike DWD ....also think there's not a lot of difference between some performances and Billy Smart's circus...now I know  the dogs don't mind, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable when I see them prancing about on their back legs for our 'entertainment' . Especially hate it when the dogs have to wear costumes of some kind !

Yvonne

Ditto, Yvonne. I can't see a lot of difference between a dog walking on its hind legs for people's entertainment and an elephant doing the same.

JG the difference being the elephant is FORCED to and the dog is not! Now my youngest malinois and my papillon, they're on two legs most of the time and it's nothing to do with me LOL.

I've seen wild elephants in Sri Lanka go naturally onto two legs to reach higher branches as well - and nobody's forcing them! ;)

That's not what I meant JG, I meant in a circus you can pretty much guarantee the elephants do what they do due to being forced -dogs in HTM are usually clicker trained and in that the dog always has to choose to do it as that's the entire point.

But the end result's the same - an animal performing various moves purely for the entertainment of people. One training method might be kind and another unkind, but ethically there's not a lot of difference IMO.

I agree that the end result is the same but is it ethically wrong to enjoy kind training? Or should we ban all dog shows/events?

I cannot think of any dog "sport", e.g. breed showing, HTM, obedience, agility, flyball, etc, which isn't done for our entertainment, none of these are done only for the benefit to the dog.

Sheepdog trials and gundog trials aren't done purely for human entertainment - they're tests of how well the dogs perform the tasks their breeds were designed to carry out. But no, nothing is only of benefit to the dog - or horse, or elephant, or dolphin or whatever species.

Just wondering how to draw the line - if an elephant was clicker-trained, would that make its performance acceptable?

IMO very few species of animals should be kept in captivity, wild animals or traditional pets. I hate seeing hamsters, birds, rabbits kept in cramped cages, even fish kept in large tanks that rarely have the best quality of care.

If these animals cannot be released wouldn't it be best to provide them with mental stimulation, even if that means clicker training?

The problem I have with animal circuses is not the performance, that is probably the best part of the animals lives, I don't agree with the way the animals are kept for the other 23 hours a day.

Many years ago I got to see behind the scenes of a circus, the animals were much loved, treated with respect and well cared for in tersm of cleanliness and diet. Unfortunately the animals spent all their non-performance time tethered, caged or travelling to the next area. Only a few animals could be exercised outside the circus ring (eg horses).

I would also disagree with dog shows if the dogs were kept in cages or neglected and only brought out for training. We're lucky that dogs can be exercised and cared for properly and I see training as an important part of our lives.

it makes an interesting ethical debate, don't you think? :)

JG a dog doesn't know the difference between doing a sit, a down, a recall or walking on its hindlegs -it's ALL things we want them to do. Simple as that.  As long as it doesn't harm the animal in any way and, most importantly, that it ENJOYS what it does without being forced, what does it matter? Some people would say ANY form of training for a dog is wrong.

Oh and to the elephant question -yes, it probably would make it acceptable (alhthough personally I cannot see how it can be possible for an elephant to safely walk on its hindlegs for as long as a dog, due to the sheer weight) -because the whole point of clicker training is that the animal itself choses what to do. Commands aren't even used until the behaviour is already there and established, and indeed some people never bother adding commands at all.

>the whole point of clicker training is that the animal itself choses what to do.

I thought the whole point of training was that the animal chose to do what the owner wants it to do? Like come back instead of chasing that cat ... that it's untrained animals that choose their own actions.

yes and no. If you select what you want to teach the dog, eg. a retrieve as a simple example, then yes -but the dog still choses to perform the action and has to work out for itself what it is that will produce the click and reward. But during free shaping you wait for the dog to think up a behaviour and reward something that you like the look of -if you watch Mary Ray's videos when she does this for instance one dog comes up with the idea of crossing its legs.

Right now I'm training my pup to retrieve, and at the moment she believes what I want out of her (i.e. what produces the click) is to pick up the item and throw it at me. :) She's been clicked for this because she got it right that what I wanted was for the item to be picked up. (I.e. all she was presented with was an item on the floor and all I do then is wait or at most draw her attention to it by pointing at it.) Now I need to work on her to get the idea that GIVING it to me will start producing a click instead.

In competitions (in UK at least) dogs are NOT allowed to wear costumes.

Handlers on the other hand can dress as silly as they want.

I've seen some handlers in the breed rings wearing very silly outfits before now! Often the ones who're trying to draw attention away from their dogs ... ;) :D

I've always thought that Mary Ray's dogs look like they're thoroughly enjoying themselves. My Dobe loves it when I dance around the room like an eejit :D He grabs hold of one of his toys and flings himself and said toy around kicking his legs out and bouncing up and down in a generally demented fashion trying to join in :P I think you'd soon be able to tell if the dog was not into it - don't know if anyone else watched that thing on channel 4 a few months back where one of the tasks was learning a dance routine with your dog...some of them would not play ball at all, but some of them loved it. Depends what kind of dog you have I suppose, same as anything.

I can't see ANY difference between dancing with a dog and competing in a dog show :( The only Championship show that I went to, I saw people carrying/pushing dogs that were dressed up in ridiculous costumes (presumably to keep them clean :rolleyes:). 'Makeup' is often applied to the dogs and the antics of some of the handlers as they ran round the ring looked rather akin to dancing. It's ALL a performance IMO :)

Daisy

Competing in a dog show is more like having your dog examined by a vet; standing still while it's checked over then being moved to see if it's lame. The only thing done differently is that a vet will also take its temperature! :D

Really !!! :D :D :D If Crufts isn't one big theatrical performance (certainly the BIS), then I don't know what is. All the fluffing and brushing and preening of the dogs (some of which look as though they have spent all morning in Vidal Sasson's :D ) - the prancing of the handlers (can they actually run normally ? :D ) I hate to think which vets you go to if it's like Crufts :D :D :D Mine must be a very down-market practice :D :D OK - the breeds differ, some are much more 'down-to-earth' than others - but much of the dog showing world makes me want to vomit, I'm afraid :(

Daisy

Just looked through DWD and not one dog is dressed up.  I don't go along with that but I think Mary Ray is excellent - she has such a marvelous bond with her dogs.  I don't see any difference between teaching a dog to dance, obedience, agility or to round up sheep.  I have a working dog that expects to be given things to do - so I 'work' her when I can because she loves it.

If the dog does it willingly then i can't see a problem. It gives the dog a chance to use its brain, improve fitness and bond with the handler, what is wrong with that? Nobody is laughing at them, most people marvel at how clever they are when they perform and as the handler is the only one who is allowed to dress up in competition it is not the dog that is humiliated. (Not that i see it that way anyway, i have nothing but admiration for hwtm/freestyle competitors.) It is no worse than competitive heelwork (what dog walk with its head up so much anyway) and showing where the dog has to "perform" in order to win.
Incidently Mary Ray has a new book out called dancing with dogs which has lots of moves and routines to do. Richard Curtis also has some good dvd's too.

I think, as JG has stated, it does make for an interesting debate.

My opinion is that the only purpose of a circus animal is to entertain the public whereas this is not the reason that most of us keep pets. Therefore, the intent behind the 'training' is very different and thats the difference for me. A child who is having fun, spending time with and building a relationship with her pet pooch surely cannot be compared to a circus 'trainer' :) Her intentions are fun and innocent and im sure her dog can stop the activity at any time and walk away whereas I rather suspect that a circus animal doesnt have this choice otherwise how would they ensure that they are ready for each show? (Quite how you deny an elephant the right to stop its 'training' though is beyond me :D:D:D )

WOW - some very interesting points being raised there.  I cant comment on dog shows - I've never got involved in that side of things.  I shall reserve judgement on DWD as I havent seen that either - but if my daughter and dog enjoy themselves and both get worn out I'll be on to a winner - if not the dvd will go in the bin......

Maxine

I don't think anyone who watches Mary Ray with her dogs could possibly imagine that those dogs are being forced to do anything - they clearly adore every moment of what they are doing and strive to please her in every way, just as an obedience or working dog does. As for shows, I don't think there's anything awful about a dog wearing a snood for a couple of hours to keep his ears clean, or boots for a couple of hours, as long as that's not his normal state of affairs - my dogs are ordinary pets 99% of the time, just some weekends they get a bath, snooze in a crate, and walk round a ring a few times. :-)

I'm sure that the dogs don't mind ....they probably enjoy working with their 'mum' :D...it's just a personal thing for me, I guess it's the artificialness of it .....I also hate to see toy breeds being carried everywhere and dressed up in silly clothes or breeds with outlandish cuts/excessive 'hairstyling'    etc - I guess I just like a dog to look like a dog and behave like a dog ....not like a wind up toy ;)

Yvonne

must admit while I was doing a search for the mary ray dvd I did found an advert for a dwd fluffy collar - cant imagine ever putting one of those on my dog - just not right.  It would be like putting a skin 'ead in a tutu!

I dislike the name 'Dancing with dogs'. It's not really dancing. The recognised name is Heelwork to Music, or Freestyle, which I find gives a much better description of what it's all about. The 'sport' started off as music being put on in the background while heelwork was being demonstrated. It's now moved on so that the music is interpreted so that the heelwork looks more effective, and the handlers do sometimes dress up and make fools of themselves if they so desire. Not the dog though, the dogs aren't allowed to wear anything other than a collar. Yes freestyle includes various other moves as well, but chosen with the dog's physical structure and willingness in mind.
Some inspiration for the OP's daughter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-2ZJZWvBQ
In this video I love the attention, enthusiasm, and happiness that the dogs are oozing. The move where the dogs on their back legs with their front paws on the children's back is perhaps not a personal favourite of mine, but hey, the dogs are choosing it over running off and sniffing in the bushes so I guess they don't mind!
Likewise I don't always like the look of the move where the dog turns around and reverses back through the handler's legs, as when collies especially do this the way they put their ears back to try and tell where their handler is makes them look submissive. The little Sheltie in the video above however looks happy doing it.

I think it's wrong for people who show conformation dogs to take a moral high ground as though their discipline is flawless. Ideally yes showing you dog is like a check-over at the vets, but often that's isn't the case with hairspray, black eye-liner, over-weight dogs, and face-judging all occurring. It all depends on the individual person how they treat their own dogs, I would never tar all the dog showers with same brush. Likewise, in Heelwork to Music there will be people who train the moves to their dogs with more physical manipulation than I like to see, but they are the minority. HTM when shown on the telly does tend to be patronising to the dog and owner, as the general public just love laughing at us crazy dog people apparently. It is not a fair representation. Just like when dog showing is shown on telly it portrays the most extreme personalities, quite unfairly. In general, the people who do HTM are the people who are very dedicated to their dog's welfare, and put a lot of time into bonding and training their dogs with the best, kind techniques in order to attain such precision in their routines, with dogs that look happy doing what they do.

I have only competed at one Heelwork to Music show so far, in Anglesey last year. Our routine involved 2 minutes 30 seconds in the ring on each of the two days. The rest of the time my dog was being exercised walking around the fields at the venue, meeting and greeting lots of doggy friends, lying in the shade with us on the grass to eat lunch, and then a long walk along the dog-friendly beaches afterwards playing in the sea. The audience while we were 'performing' was perhaps 15 strong at best. Yes, they applauded at the end, showing their appreciating for the 'entertainment'. I'm inclined to believe however, that what they enjoyed seeing was a Westie that had actually had some training done with it (unlike most Westies you see!), and seeing his very feathery un-carrot-like tail wagging all the way through. They appreciated the time and effort that had been put into the training, very different from the sort of entertainment at a circus. No props, no costume, no treats or toys, no lead, no physical manipulation. Just me, my dog, doing 2.5 minutes worth of exercises strung together with music playing in the background, and a huge reward at the end. Harmless.

I agree -isn't "Dancing with dogs" just the name that TV thought up for that programme they had, was it Top Dog? Bit like calling the Crufts BIS a Supreme Champion.

Oops, aren't I talkative one this morning!

I have the Richard Curtis book and teach the moves to my beardies in the evening when they are looking for something to do !
They love it... weaving through my legs, walking backwards, reversing through my legs, playing dead , heelwork but walking backwards , twirling the list goes on ..... I have put music on and my girls go mad with excitement because they are going to get attention from me and play a game because that is how they see it in my eyes!
I also do agility/obedience  training twice a week plus practice every day which they also love.
There is nothing wrong with training you dog to music  as long as they enjoy it  especially highly intelligent dogs who need to learn new things on a regular basis apart from a regular exercise routine thier minds need stimulating and they love to learn.

I agree with you Brak3n :)

Roni

I agree Roni
Dogs need mental stimulation as well as physical walks. IMO learning is  part of a necessary work out.

is the Richard Curtis book good ? I might have to get it, ive got a Mary Ray video but I dont find it that good.

Not that good - and it costs £25 too....:rolleyes:

A friend of mine was trying to find out if there is anyone in central scotland that teaches dances to music?  Can anyone help?

Meat.... and ....poison. spring to mind here. Each to there own :)

There are classes in Fife.
http://www.helpfifeanimals.org.uk/ Click on Dog Training

£25

I might have a look on ebay

My book only cost £7.99.  Perhaps you meant the DVD??

If HTM is making dogs perform unnatural should a sighthound be galloping round a ring, Should a sent hound have it's head glued to the floor?

In agility surely a BC shouldn't be jumping and going on see-saws, they should only be running round a flock of sheep keeping them together?

In obedience should a dog keep it's head in an unnatural position looking up at the handler? 

Going back to the original post...Shouldn't we help encourage the OP's daughter into training a dog?  It will teach her great skill, give her something to do and keep busy and after school keeping her off the street corners with a fag (sorry Maxine, I'm not saying your daughter would do this at all!)

I know my dogs wouldn't do any HTM if they didn't want to. (Although never tried with them, their stubbon enough in basic obedience!) But a friend has a rescue dog, he had a bad start to life and though ringcraft (junior handling), obedience, general work he is a different dog to what he started.  So happy and only too willing to do a trick he has been taught (even when not asked!!!!!!)