We are on a waiting list for a Dal puppy and would like any suggestions as to what people have found sucessful in feeding them.

I know they have a different metabolism and require less purin (sp?) and protein from white meat/fish is best. But does anyone have any recipies or brands that are suitable?

(I don't want to get get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of complete V BARF if you would be so kind ;-)  )

The breeder has also advised to minimise or cut out wheat and yeast any ideas.....

Helen

I've PMed you, as I have dalmatians, one of whom is known to have the classic urate problem and requires specialist feeding. They are not a breed that conforms to the general rules!

Hi Helen
Can't offer you any advice but just my best wishes with your new addition!  Will it be a dog or a bitch and are you thinking of showing???
Carina

What does your Breeder feed her's on and are they doing well on it?  Tha would be my recommendation :) 

>What does your Breeder feed her's on

Ditto.

>I've PMed you, as I have dalmatians,

Jeangenie,why not share your knowledge with the rest of the board? :)

>Jeangenie,why not share your knowledge with the rest of the board?

Because, Ktee, you've made it very clear in the past that 'the board' (though how you know what so many people think escapes me ;)) hasn't the remotest interest in the particular feeding needs of my breed, and have repeatedly heaped scorn upon the experiences and findings of other owners in this country and abroad, as well as veterinary specialists. I feel it's best, therefore, to discuss such details in private.

Well JG, I for one would be interested in the knowlege you've garnered. :) I don't have dals but then urate stones are not limited to them. For instance dogs with PSS which IS a problem in my breed get them.

All dalmatians have a metabolic defect which makes urate stone-forming a possibility. Nobody knows why some will form stones and others, even littermates fed the same diet, will be symptom-free their entire lives. What is known is that foods containing high-purine proteins (offal, game, oily fish, broccoli, spinach, beef) increase the risk so these should be avoided. Protein sources should be those with lower purine levels - white fish and chicken have medium levels, so some can be given, but eggs and dairy products have low levels and are the safest - if the individual dog isn't intolerant to them, of course!

Dogs are at a greater risk from stones than bitches due to their anatomy. In dogs the narrow urethra passes through the os penis, preventing stones larger than about 3mm in diameter passing through, causing a urinary obstruction which, if left untreated, will cause the painful death of the animal with days. The urethra in bitches is not only wider anyway, but only passes therough soft tissue so can expand to a certain extent to allow the passage of stones which would obstruct a male. That said, bitches can and do obstruct if the stone has become quite large, so there's no room for complacency. Stones can also form in the kidney rather than the bladder, and cause a different set of problems.

There's a very good brief explanation of general stone-forming here, with further links to detailed studies and lists of foods and ingredients which owners of dals in particular should avoid feeding their dogs.

What seems to be a very important factor in avoiding stones is ensuring that dogs drink plenty to keep the urine plentiful and dilute - a 20kg dog should have about a litre of fluid daily - and plenty of opportunity to urinate, about every three hours. The situation which puts them most at risk as being fed dried food dry rather than wetted, then being left all day while the owners are out of the house. These conditions are ideal for developing this serious condition.

Lots of information about the other forms of stones and their treatment here. All breeds are at risk from certain types of stones, so it's useful reading for all owners.

You learn something new everyday I never realised this about Dalmations

Absolutely Curly!  I've found this fascinating.  I had no idea Dals in particular were prone to this condition.

Thanks JG :)

Debs

Bulldogs, Yorkies, mini schnauzers and several other breeds are also prone to urate stones, but for different reasons than dals. And any dog which gets repeated urine infections is at risk of struvite stones, so it's something all owners need to be aware of, and make sure they don't tinker with the pH of their dog's urine without knowing what they're doing!

Lots to drink and frequent opportunities to urinate is a good way of limiting the risk to all dogs. :)

Very interesting and very good links. Thanks JG. :)

excellent post JG we all learn something new everyday, just one of the many reasons why i love this board

JG, is this something that Dalmatians have always suffered from or is it a relatively modern thing developed by interbreeding ???

Daisy

I'm not sure what you mean by 'interbreeding' - dalmatians haven't been interbred with anything for a very long time. It's something that's been recognised as a problem since the 1930s.

Sorry :D Meant inbreeding - day off today and brain isn't functioning too well :D Was the problem caused by the original development of the breed?  Are there any ideas for helping the problem (apart from careful feeding) or is it just something that those in the breed just accept ? Are any lines better than others ?

Daisy (novice of this parish)

It's not really known how it started - what is known is that dalmatians, humans (it causes gout) and one other primate have this particular problem - and that's all! Nobody knows what triggers some to form stones and not others, and no line can say they're 'clear' of it; if they're dalmatians they're genetically predisposed to it.

Careful feeding to avoid high-purine foods (purines are a base element of DNA, so all organic compounds contain it), ensuring the dog's fluid intake is maintained and that urine doesn't have to sit in the bladder for hours, and making sure the urine pH is as close to 7 as possible are all anyone can do.

Thanks, JG :) It just proves how important it is for new owners of a breed to do their research thoroughly before buying :( Not that I'd ever thought of buying a Dalmatian, but I know about eye problems, epilepsy, hip scoring etc etc but - before your posts - had never thought about stones being a breed problem :( Just makes me even more horrifed about the ease with which some people rush out and get a dog (we did when we got our crossbreed - didn't know anything about genetic/breed problems, sad to say :( :( :( )

Daisy

Very interesting reading,thanks jeangenie :)

Do breeders breed from dogs that develop these conditions,or are the spayed/neutered? What would a breeder do if they had a top winning bitch/male that alot of people wanted pups from to show,but she/he blocked regularly?Would this condition be enough to stop them breeding,or is it considered part and parcel of owning a Dal?

I guess the impression i got from daisy's questions was is this a genetic thing because alot of dogs that have this are bred from?

>Nobody knows what triggers some to form stones and not others, and no line can say they're 'clear' of it; if they're dalmatians they're genetically predisposed to it.

I read JG's post to mean that all Dalmations have this but not all Dalmations show symptoms.  Careful feeding can prevent stones forming. Lots of water and frequent urination can help prevent build up of the chemicals that form the stones.

You can't breed the problem out of Dalmations until someone presents a dog genetically free of the condition which hasn't happened yet.

>Do breeders breed from dogs that develop these conditions

If they develop them young then it's advised not to breed from them. However as I said, all dalmatians are genetically predisposed to it, just that most never have any symptoms. Also, if they're going to obstruct, it's most likely to happen to middle-aged males when, if they were going to be used at stud at all, they generally have been already! By the way there's no evidence that castration decreases the likelihood of obstruction - it's not a hormonally-affected condition.

>I guess the impression i got from daisy's questions was is this a genetic thing because alot of dogs that have this are bred from

Yes, because all dalmatians - every single one in the world - have the genetic abnormality. Most live long, entirely healthy, symptom-free lives, just as most humans, although we all too have the genetic predisposition, never develop gout. It is, as you say, part and parcel of owning a dalmatian.

>but she/he blocked regularly?

Dogs which repeatedly obstuct generally have to be put to sleep because there's a limit to the number of times one can operate on a bladder and still have it functioning properly. Three times is about the limit - this is why correct diet, paying great concern to the purine levels of the food, is truly a matter of life and death.