well looks like it,s nearly here article in d/world saying after beginning of april no more docking well not if you want to show your dog what does everyone think? cant imagine boxer-bulldog -dob-or rottie with tails but suppose once everyone  is showing with   we,ll get use to it  just hope it,s o.k. to have dewclaws removed

Bulldogs arent docked :-)

>Bulldogs arent docked

Gosh,i've always thought they were :o What are their tails clased as then? Bobtails?

No,a lot of bulldogs are being bred that have glourious tails.
There are a few "types" of tails but they arent ever docked.

The very short tails they often have are known as 'screw' tails - because they're twisted like a screw. The ideal bulldog tail is straight. Lots of pictures of bulldog tails here.

Good grief!  You have to wonder what people are breeding for when you look at pictures like that JG.  I personally couldn't be in a breed where that much can go wrong with a dog.  That whole page just makes me feel sorry for the dogs who have those conditions, and from what it's saying they're far too common. :(

Debs

With all breeds there are the good breeders who aim high and try to eradicate the potential problems, and the bad breeders who're only interested in churning out pups for the money. In dalmatians we have plenty of breeders who don't BAER test their breeding animals or the puppies. :( And with bulldog prices being so high, the careless breeders are the majority.

I wonder how long it will take the general public to get used to tails. Is it what most people want cos in 8 years of owning rottis I have only ever had 3 enquiries for undocked rottis.
It will be interesting to see if buyers decline and I will also watch with interest as to breeders who drop out of the breeds.
I know most rotti breeders are not breeding at the moment due to being full of returned dogs or puppies they can't sell. Was talking to a breeder the other day who was travelling to a fair few places to collect puppies who the were sired by her dog that the breeders no longer had room for. One collection involved 5 x 16 wk old pups and another was 2 x 10 wk old puppies.

I know in our breed there are quite a lot of enquiries for undocked puppies. I suppose it is personal preference. It will take time to get used to but I suppose we will all be in the same boat so to speak. They've managed it in other countries, although in my breed they show the tail bent so you can only see the part you would if it was docked.....go figure :rolleyes:

I think a fair few of the general public don't ask for undocked puppies for the simple reason that they don't know they're docked.  I've had several conversations with people out walking and there are an unbelievable amount of people who have no idea that bits have been cut off their dogs in the first place!  They truly think they're born like that. 

Debs

And in some cases they are born like that and you have people telling you all sorts about how it's not possible!

Kate

I was talking to someone in Boxers the other day and they are seriously thinking of giving up on the breed and they have champions!  My vet who docks says that he will not from April 7th, not even working dogs.  That's why next year I'm going to breed my natural bobtail and hopefully keep a nice bitch from her, especially after seeing her daughter at Manchester Champ. Show today, she looked gorgeous :d

well done you and lynn today keeping the spanish flag flying,

We have friends in Dobes who have just had what they say will be their last litter as they are giving up with the breed.

More worryingly we have had people interested in our breed just because they are born with natural stumps - no thought to the actual breed, living with them, how they will get on with their other dogs etc.

I can't see anywhere in the legislation where natural stumps are mentioned, how we are going to go about registering them and what sort of confirmation we will need to have to say they are stumps rather than docked.

And as the RSPCA will be able to remove dogs "on suspicion of cruelty" does this mean that someone can report a natural stump as docked and the RSPCA remove all you dogs, spay/neuter and rehome them whilst they work out that actually it was born that way in the first place!

We have friends in Dobes who have just had what they say will be their last litter as they are giving up with the breed.

Much as I can understand people's feelings about the docking ban coming in, I'm afraid I will never understand people willing to give up on an entire breed because of it. Why? Is it only the TAIL they like in their dogs? Is it only the look of the dog they like? Temperament won't change! I remember watching a tape of K9 Boot camp from Animal Planet, and a LOT of the Malinois on it had had their tails docked. (Malinois do not do well being kenneled,  they need to do things all the time and so they chew their own tails out of boredom, especially those working bred hyper lines the army use). To me they look AWFUL without a tail as of course it is not a traditionally docked breed, never has been. But I thought to myself that if it was the other way around, if by April all Malinois would have to be docked, I would still WANT the breed because what I like about the breed isn't just the TAIL, it's their personality.

I agree wholeheartedly with that opinion Goldmali.

I can understand owners not wanting a docked tail if they truly believe its cruel.  I cannot understand breeders of traditionally docked breeds abandoning the breeds just because they don't like the look of the dog with a tail. However, I can understand breeders of working breeds abandoning their docked breeds if there is evidence of prevalent tail damage in their breeds. 

I agree, Goldmali. There's more to a dog than its tail. If people only like a breed because they're able to dock its tail, the dogs are better off without them.

I agree too, I've just had my last ever litter that will be docked. It's something people all over Europe and Australia have had to come to terms with I don't see why we should have such a problem? I will admit I do prefer my breed docked BUT I certainly won't give up just because of a tail. At the end of the day we will all be in the same boat, eventually every traditionally docked breed will be in the ring with a tail and we will be on equal terms.
One thing though, it will add another dimension to how we choose our future show prospects. It's also something new to learn regarding grooming etc and actually handling the tail which will be interesting.

I was wondering the same thing myself Goldmali. I can't see any dog looking funny because it has a tail anyway. A bit like looking funny because they have 4 legs. Eye of the beholder I guess.

Well......i took the bull by the horns and left my new American cocker litter undocked, very cute they look too i might add, i'm also leaving my weimaraner litter due soon undocked, i have had no problems selling either litter.
we have to get used to it thats all there is to it so i just started a bit early!
Pauline

Hi I also have Weimaraners. Our next litter will be undocked by the looks of things. Can anyone tell me if we are allowed to remove dew claws still ?
Rachel

So far you can still remove dew claws but no doubt they will make that illegal too!

I've recently bought a Rott pup who has been docked but I will happily have undocked Rotts in the future as its the breed I love, i'm not worried about the tail...not sure how many bruises i'll end up with though as they are always wagging their tails!!

All docked breeds of dog were originally docked because of a particular reason - most of those reasons are still as valid today as they were then.

Many Gundog breeds are docked as 2-4 day old pups to prevent serious injury to their tails in later life. Their inbred instinct, whether they are actually used for working or just pets, tells them to hunt relentlessly in terrain where game is to be found. This can result in a long tail sustaining extremely serious damage, infection setting in, splits which will not heal easily, often amputation being the only solution to the dog's suffering - a distressing operation & difficult recuperation for an adult dog to endure.

This is the reason why many dedicated breeders are considering never breeding again, because they do not want to bring dogs into the world to suffer in this way.

For what reason were Dobes and Rotties docked?  I am sure there once was a reason but as far as I can see any reason to have these docked no longer exists.  Our Weimaraner bitch was docked and it became infected.  The vet was horrified when we took her to see him when we brought her home and thought total amputation would be necessary.  We managed to save some of her tail but it is very short and she must have been in terrible pain.  For every dog that receives tail damage while working there are several that have to have tails amputated due to problems with the original docking.  Personally I don't see the point of docking - I used to live in rural Suffolk and our local vet had never seen a damaged tail from a working dog in 6 years of practice.  He had however seen plenty of dogs with problems arising from being docked.  I can't imagine why people would give up on their breed just because they are to keep a part of their anatomy that god gave them :rolleyes:

Hi, I own a docked breed and she is purely a pet, not worked at all but I feel quite strongly that some breeds should be continued to be docked.  My dog exhibits the same behaviour that a working dog of the same breed does.  She is extremely fast, has a very keen nose and her tail wags furiously most of the time.  I live in a new town but we are lucky to have good parks and wooded areas, plus I live on the edge of town next to farmland.  My dog dives in and out of the undergrowth hunting for squirrels, pigeons etc, you can hear her crashing about, when she picks up a scent her tail wags furiously and I mean really fast so perhaps you can imagine how at risk from damage it would be if it was full length.

>Our Weimaraner bitch was docked and it became infected.  The vet was horrified when we took her to see him when we brought her home and thought total amputation would be necessary.  We managed to save some of her tail but it is very short and she must have been in terrible pain. 

Was the original docking performed by a vet?  The reason that breeders are not allowed to dock is because of the problems you have had with your dog. 

>For every dog that receives tail damage while working there are several that have to have tails amputated due to problems with the original docking. 

Where did you hear that?

>I used to live in rural Suffolk and our local vet had never seen a damaged tail from a working dog in 6 years of practice.  He had however seen plenty of dogs with problems arising from being docked.  I can't imagine why people would give up on their breed just because they are to keep a part of their anatomy that god gave them

The reason that vets haven't seen tail damage in working dogs is because they have so far been docked.  Without a doubt they will see plenty of tail damaged dogs in the future.  I have only seen one full tailed GSP (a rescue)  The full tail of this dog is very fine and often when I have seen him his tail is bleeding.  His owner told me that the damage just won't heal properly and he only has to knock it on furniture for it to open up.  A fine tail on say an English Pointer is not a problem because their natural working habitat is open fields but for breeds like the GSP who hunt and retrieve in dense undergrowth the fine tail coupled with the fast wagging puts them at more risk to tail damage.

Good point about the vet who hadn't seen any working dogs with tail damage :D  Hadn't thought of that one!!!

The info on the dogs having problems with docked tails v dogs having injuries came from my vet friend who had done some research into it. 

Just wondered about any short haired breed that isn't docked - Great Danes for example have enormous power in their tails - I know someone who had dents in their fridge caused by the dog wagging its tail!  Also our Ridgeback goes 'hunting' with our Weimaraners in our neighbours field.  She plunges into the brambles and undergrowth after the Weimaraners, tail wagging furiously.  She has no problems with her tail.  Surely any short haired breed with a tail would be at danger of tail damage.  If that is the case why isn't every breed of short haired dog docked?

Forgive my naivety, I just form an opinion from the info I have, so any insight as to why all breeds aren't docked is very welcome. 

I think I also read somewhere that Great Danes ears were cropped (and still are in some countries) to stop their ears getting torn when hunting.  If this is the case, why stop cropping now when a Dane can still go into the undergrowth and get its ears ripped.  And what about Weimaraners?  Surely with short hair they must suffer ear dammage too?  Why were they never cropped?

Oh dear, I do appologise, I have so many questions now, but would be grateful for any answers!

Well these are just my opinions based on what I've read and by watching my own dog.  Some dogs have fine tails but aren't bred for working in dense undergrowth so they wouldn't generally have a problem.  Some breeds do have strong tails, I can remember as a child that our Lab's tail used to really hurt my legs if I got in the way of the wag :D  Breeds like Labs are worked in more open territory leaving the HPR dogs to go leaping about the undergrowth.  I think it is fair to say that it's not just traditionally docked breeds that get tail damage, it can happen to any breed it's just that certain breeds are more prone than others.  It all comes down to cost versus the benefit at the end of the day.  If you have a breed that has more chance of tail damage it is better to save the trauma of painful injury and amputation by docking as a young puppy.

I have to say that I would hate to have a dog with tail damage as from what I've read damaged tails are notoriously difficult to treat and once damaged are even more prone to split and infection. I don't know about anyone else with this type of breed but my dog is always picking up knocks, scrapes and cuts.  Only last week she was at the vets because she developed a lump the size of a golf ball on her leg which turned out to be a cist - phew :rolleyes: Vet thinks it was caused by injury. She also has a cut toe, scraped pad and inside thigh at the moment.  So far we haven't had any ear injuries as such, just a big thorn stuck in one. Thank goodness she hasn't got a full tail or dew claws.

There is more information here http://www.cdb.org/case4dock.htm

I've always thought that Danes were one of the best arguments FOR docking and could never understand why they weren't customarily docked.

Not even my breed although I do have a strong interest, but even in my limited contact I have personally seen many with extensive tail damage - some requiring adult docking, some causing the dog extensive discomfort for a long while before the owners managed to heal it up (very difficult indeed on such an extremity), and the mildest of most merely spattering their owners' houses with bloody on a daily basis.

I feel very sorry for owners of dogs with similar tail construction which will now not be docked.

M.

My breed's not docked, and is notorious for splitting their tails and covering themselves and their surroundings in blood. But there are very effective treatments and IMO the occasional split is preferable to the loss of their happy wagging tails.

I have dobes yet remain undecided on what to do.  I will still have dobes but think my litter will be my last for sometime. 

Sorry but I think a dobe with a tail looks awful (but no doubt I will get used it). :-)   

Alot of people wont stay in the breed and I cant blame them, they have worked hard over the years to breed dogs as per standard - and the breed how they liked and fell in ove with it is to be changed quite dramatically so I can see where they are coming from.  I love the personality of the dobe but am sort of considering another breed. 

I havent had any queries lately asking for undocked, they are all wanting docked.

Is this true, that they will not be allowed to dock even by the vets.? thanks

Only pups that are destined to work - show breeds, no.

what about rottweilers

No.

I suspect then Jan (not being sarky, even if wording sounds wrong LOL) that you probably haven't seen the tails back to bare bone that I've seen on Danes, despite all efforts to protect them. If you have, ignore me.

Anyway, as I say, bit off topic really as they're not a docked breed. :D Just so happens that that's the breed I have experience of tail splits in.

M.

I've seen a Dane tail so infected (because the correct treatment for the original split hadn't been done) it had to be amputated. Unfortunately the owners didn't stop the dog chewing the bandage and he died on the operating table when having the bandages removed from his guts. :(

I still think the risk of splits like the gory messes I've seen in my breed is still better than losing the wag!

Rotts I've no idea, but from what I understand, dobes were originally docked (and cropped) to prevent damage from fights with other dogs when dogs wandering the streets was common - particularly given that most male dobes are iffy with other male dogs, and castration wouldn't have been all that common when they first appeared.  These days it's purely cosmetic - people like the more tough look of a dobe with a docked tail than a full tail (as full tails on dobes tend to curl a bit).  Personally I like the softer, curled tail look, and one day I'll only have tailed dobes.  But as they'll probably all be rescues it's unlikely to be for a while.

I know in the US particularly there is trouble with trying to get docking and cropping banned - most owners over there see it as a freedom of choice issue, they should have the right to choose how their dog looks.  Never mind the dog, of course - but if you say that they start arguing that dogs don't choose to be neutered but we do it, or that they didn't choose to be different breeds...