I was looking at the Purina pro-plan website as I noticed that they do a adult food specifically for large breed athletic or robust dogs. Having greyhounds I fall into the large breed athletic.

I just was interested to see what their protein and fat levels were, and was surprised to find that they were 29% protein and 19% fat, even the general senior diet is 29% protein - just less fat.

I was worried about giving my dogs 1/2 Timberwolf 22% Black Forest as a mixer and 1/2 raw mince from Prize Choice or Natures Menu and adding FBO, EPO etc, and then 26% Timberwolf Ocean Blue as a complete, as all the retired greyhound sites say no more than 20% protein. No wonder I had a job keeping weight on them on Burns! I might get the 28% and even 35% Timberwolf varieties now.

Its also interesting as I found this old post:
"Purina did some research a while ago apparently and found that dogs lived healthier lives and longer on a lower protein diet (animal experimentation of course!) and changed their recipes accordingly so maybe JWB and Burns have been right all along."

But there is a research thing on their website about alopecia (a common problem in greyhounds - they get bald thigh syndrome) saying that higher protein is better as (now I think of it obvioulsy) hair is made of protein, and they say any excess protein can go towards making the hair stronger and help with alopecia etc. The conventional wisdom for greyhounds is that high protein makes them balder!

Its all very confusing isn't it.

I'm happy with Timberwolf though, although its early days, and I'm slowly adding more raw meat and even tried chicken wings for the first time today. They've always had added veges, sometimes steamed, sometimes raw. I think the Timberwolf Black Forest is a good option for someone scared to go raw homemade completely as they actually say it can be used as a BARF mixer due to its phosphorous levels being adjusted or something, whereas Burns made you feel evil for adding anything to their food!!!!

I used to faf about cooking for them every morning, giving them a cheap greyhound mixer (full of derivatives), pasta or rice, brown bread, veges and meat which was how they were fed when racing....which in hindsight was an awful lot of carbonhydrates.....so I'm slowly getting there I think.

To be honest, and I have Giants, I would never ever feed a dog that much protein in a complete diet! My view always has been that too much protein causes too many other problems! For the greyhounds maybe try a Zinc supplement for the hair loss...I would also suggest star flower oil or evening primrose oil...all the best, Dawn

Latest research has proven dogs need a higher protein and fat level than most complete foods provide.It is an old school train of thought that is based on outdated research that dogs thrive on low protein diets,Especially older dogs! It is now understood they they also need higher protein and more digestible protein as they age,not the other way around :rolleyes:

England just seems to be behind when it comes to feeding our pets,and still thinks grains should make up the majority of their diet,although i think money plays a huge part in this also,as they aqre cheaper to manufacture than meat based foods :(

On one of the American nutrition boards i am a member of,which is frequented by actual animal nutritionists,the most popular foods fed have protein levels of between  28% and 42%,with fat levels hovering around 22-24%. Timberwolf is extremely popular,as they seem to be the fore runners in pet food these days.

There is also a newfie breeder/shower,naturopath that would strongly disagree with your opinion newfiedreams.She has 6 newfs at the moment thriving on high protein diets. :)

bedlem,Burns is one of my least favourite foods because of his blanket,narrow/single minded statements that ALL dogs should have LOW protein and fat everything!! Too many dogs come seem to come down with the same problems when fed Burns,such as dry scurfy coats,weight loss,muscle wastage,just general malnutrition IMO.

Dogs have no real need for carbs,and you wont find a recommended % of what they should have,as it is not an "essential" part of the canine diet.

Greyhounds are an odd breed, and I can only speak about them (I didn't look what the giant breed robust protein levels were which is what Newfies would come under, which are lovely dogs - there are two at Ebony's KC good cits class).

Greyhounds tend towards losing weight as they age, and our 10 year old who has been fed on cheap greyhound mixer, 500 g fresh meat everyday, veges, pasta, brown bread, now has hardly any muscle at all - bearing in mind he was a beautifully toned racer 5 years ago, not that I care about having muscle bound dogs, I'm just think maybe there is a better food out there for greyhounds. So I am leaning towards the higher protein foods now for that reason. I have four at home at the minute and there has been no hyperactivity or nastiness and their urine is a nice healthy colour, but obvioulsy I'll keep an eye on them. I think Ebony's coat feels softer and is much more shiny now - just need to sort the bald patches - what zinc supplement would you recommend. He gets omega 6 from the Groomers Evening Primrose although I've just started giving him a starflower capsule everyday.

Hi you can get a simple Zinc tablet from the cheapo household/value goods/chemisty sort of place? (It's called value something here I can't remember the name of it!) I just throw one in her food bowl, along with the other stuff I give them, every night. If you want a look see at Storm, go to the Our Dog site and look at Newfie breeders, there's a pic of Storm there, my name is Dawn Jenkins, Liverpool. The feeding she gets speaks for itself...I also do 3 to 4 miles a day, 'conditioning' walks with her every day.

I have also read some research done into the problems of feeding too high a protein level and opinion is that it MAY cause Juvenile scurvy too ...to be honest there are hundreds of books that give differing views on this subject and much of it is a case of reading what you can, comparing and then making up your own mind which 'thinking' you agree with! I think there will always be people who are ready to dismiss everyones views...what they forget is that everyone has a degree of experience and what is right for some is not right for others and I don't believe there ever will be agreement on this subject! All the best, Dawn

OK I have a golden so nothing like a greyhound - but I do feed him the BARF diet I do follow Ian Billinghurst's advice and I have to say that Jasper is a very muscular dog, as opposed to our last golden who we fed dog food.  I swear by the BARF diet as his coat is thick and glossy and his eyes are really shiny, and he is a very strong dog (proof that he pulled me over the other day) he has boundless energy too!

TBH I don't know the exact ratio of protein, fat etc he has, when he was very yong he had 50% chicken wings with 40 - 50% veg/fruit as stated in the 'grow your pups with bones' book and now he is a little older the veg/fruit ratio has been decreased slightly, but he still has quite a lot of veg and fruit and he enjoys it.  I do follow the book as I don't want to give too much meat without bone as I know that can also cause problems.

He doesn't have any carbs as in dog biscuit or cereals, he does occasionally have potato - but only occasionally and sometimes wholemeal bread.

I realise your dog is older so maybe the 'give your dog a bone' book by Ian Billinghurst would be helpful ?

Maria



 

Ooooh I went to see! How handsome, gorgeous, cuddly....I wish I had space.....:-)
Karen

Who Karen...me or the dog?? LOL :D

LOL...only saw the dog!
Karen

To be honest I dont really care! It was just my opinion and I have been in dogs for over 25 years...what makes someone else in the same position have an opinion that is 'better' than mine? You don't need to answer that...I am not after an arguement, I was just proffering an opinion...which the poster can take or leave as they like...I'd be interested to know who the Breeder and natropath is though? Might get some info...Pm please?? Thanks Dawn :D (oh and my dogs thrive on what I feed them too!) Though I do supplement with things I feel they need.

Hi Dawn ,Sorry to jump in on the post ,only I noticed you recomended zinc as a supplement for hair loss and I just wondered if my girl might benefit from it she has a gorgeous coat but at the moment seems to be losing a bit of hair from her eyebrows I think its maybe a hormonal thing after her season.
Just wondered what you think about trying zinc on her
thanks Dawn
Sharon previously Spellmaker

I'm very grateful for everyone's opinions and I realise that from reading the forum that feeding is a difficult subject to get a consensus on, but it does help to hear what people think and why they think it, so you can get all the info possible and make your own decision. I've found some links to some very interesting information from previous posts.

I am a doctor (well was until I gave up full-time work to look after my doggies....oh and be a housewife!) but I still find all the information about feeding quite contradictory and baffling at times, as a scientist I like to analyse it all and as a dog owner I want to get it right!

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has greyhounds or other sighthounds.

I'm still not ready to go 100% BARF and like having the backup of the complete food so I feel I'm somewhere in between both camps at the minute, and I guess what I really wanted was some reassurance, and someone who feeds BARF and someone who likes completes such as JWB and Burns, etc, to say "what you are feeding your dogs sounds good" to put my mind at rest that I am doing the best for them.

At the end of the day we all have in common that we want to do the best possible for our dogs - lucky little devils aren't they!

I will definitely try the zinc, and let you know how that goes.

Thanks again

I don't have any answers for you but I agree that old sighthounds go skinny and I've never found a way to stop it. All I'd add is that although they seem to lose muscle it doesn't seem to impair them. At present my lot are on a VAT free greyhound food but I add fat in the form of suet too all their food and the old girl gets extra. I've fed most of the big name feeds (except Burns) at various times, including the very expensive ones, and hand on heart I've not seen any difference in condition or longevity with any particular diet.

I'm  a doctor too and I agree that what you read about feeding is contradictory and confusing. There are just too many theories and not enough facts. Long before BARF was invented by Billinghurst et al I fed a cooked home made meat based diet. I stopped for two reasons. First BSE made it difficult to get the meat and and bone meal. Secondly I always worried myself skinny about getting the balance of the food wrong, especially for growing giant youngsters. I'm much happier now that I feed complete, especially with the youngsters. I would never feed BARF. The risks are just far too high for me, and I saw the almost fatal results in one dog that we fostered for 10 months and that I was very fond of. The claims for BARF are wonderful but there is just no evidence for them (and some of the stuff in the pop-science BARF books are no more than pseudo-scientific tosh).

I doubt that high protein does any harm. Biochemistry says that any excess will be metabolised to provide energy and ammonia. I don't subscribe either to the theory that puppy food 'forces' giant breeds. Imo as long as they are not allowed to get fat - not a problem in our breeds - they need the higher levels of nutrients.

I've, touch wood, been lucky to have had excellent longevity in my sighthounds and for the most part they have been healthy right up to the end. The various ways I've fed has not made a pin of difference to this and I do often wonder if we worry too much about our dogs' diets. That said, I've ordered a bag of the Purina food for large breed athletes and will try it out on my skinny old girl. If it puts some bulk/muscle on her I would consider going over to it for all of them.

Hi, yes indeed, Zinc seems to be the one thing that is missed in diets for some reason and originally I was taking it for some dreaded skin condition around my lips and mouth, it looked like cold sores but were there permanently...the Zinc helped an enormous amount and I also used a fash wash with zinc in it, which also helped...it turned out my was hormonal levels and all the Dr's missed it LOL

I am also a retired Nurse and like to look and evaluate evidence and research, like has already been said by myself and others, there is SO much reading out there, really you have to read, take on board and choose your own ways!

I also know of Newfie breeders that swear by peanut butter and honey mixed!!! don't ask me how or why it works or even if they are being totally truthful, as in essence every body is jealous and guarded around other breeders and exhibitors, that said, well, I suppose they might be lying!!! But it maybe worth a try...it certainly won't do any harm! I would also supplement with Star Flower Oil and/or Evening Primrose Oil capsules. I also add a Vitamin C tablet and Cod Liver Oil. Hope this helps, all the best, Dawn X :D

Ohh and in my other life, from a teenager I was working and training Greyhounds for a family that lived in Corley and raced at Hall Green, so I had quite a lot of knowledge even before some people on here started Nursey school LOL :D

Thanks for the replies - I do appreciate everyones opinion.

I do spend alot of time worrying about what I'm feeding them, but couldn't careless what I eat myself - usually complete rubbish - my dogs definately eat better than me!

Our 10 year old has a bacterial skin infection at the minute so I'm having to bath him once/twice a week in a medicated shampoo so while I'm doing him I'm going to give the Quistel a serious go with Ebony as I never washed him that often in it before.

Dawn - in my current other life I've got a NGRC kennel hands licence, and help out at a kennels once a week!!!

Canine nutrition has come along way in the past 5 or so years.Most things that were thought to be true 10-20 years ago have now been debunked.An example,and a biggie: Older dogs need low protein diets,the opposite has now been found to be true!I'ts always wise to keep up with the latest research IMHO :)

>I do spend alot of time worrying about what I'm feeding them, but couldn't careless what I eat myself.

Same here! We have a choice in what we eat,and know when our bodies are craving something(fresh food,greens etc).Our dogs rely totally upon us to keep them healthy,we owe it to them to give them the best and most species appropriate nutrition we can.Too many pet owners base their feeding principles on convenience and price,most times at the expense of their dogs :(

I agree Ktee - we do have a choice and our dogs don't - so we have to give them the best possible chance.

I know since feeding BARF that I never think, 'oh what a shame feeding the same thing every day, boring and tasteless and obviously junk food  ',  which I used to with our last dog when we gave him dog food, no choice and no variety - can you imagine how boring that must be?

When we mix the veg and fruit and add the vitamins and oils it now makes me realise how healthily our dog eats and how unhealthy we ourselves eat

I think someone mentioned on a post that Ian Billinghurst's BARF diet was a new diet - but it isn't it has been around since people first had pets, and obviously before that in the wild!  It's only since the 50's & 60's that dog food became the norm!

Dogs do not have the same attitudes to food as humans have.  Thank goodness :)  Many animal species eat a very monotinous diet so there is no reason to believe such a diet cannot entirely meet the needs, nutritionally or spiritually :) of that animal.  Like Ktee says, we are blessed in the modern world with a great deal of research and understanding of their needs to ensure those needs are met.
I agree, though, I wish humans could be guiding into eating healthier too!

Going back to the protein thing...again (sorry)...I thought people may be interested to read some of these articles:

http://www.purina-proplan.com/PDF_Research/PRR_03.pdf

http://www.purina-proplan.com/PDF_Research/PRR_03.pdf

So how much is too little protein and how much is too much protein.....

I'm confused!